Throne room scene in The Last Jedi and what Kylo says (spoilers)

[Deleted member 17402]

I've gotten around to re-watching The Last Jedi and once again arrived at the throne room scene. There are a few things I notice now that I didn't notice the first time:

He carefully omits mentioning The First Order in the list of things Rey should consider letting go of as part of her past, but comfortably suggests the Sith, Jedi and rebels.

We've seen how conflicted he is since The Force Awakens. That's part of his character. It's this conflict that makes him so great. However I had not noticed how much of a plea for help he makes when he asks Rey to join him after extending his hand. You think by this point after killing Snoke and the guards that he's fully committed to embracing the dark side, but I can't help but to think that he really wants Rey to join him as some semblance of sanity and good to offset this internal turmoil he can't escape. It seems that Snoke did such a number on his mind that he can't help but to unwillingly gravitate toward being a villain, even though he wants to embrace the light side. In this scene he even says "please" to Rey while appearing to nearly cry.

I think this scene between the two movies best sums up how much of a tragic character he is.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Can't say I agree. He is asking her to be his partner to rule the galaxy with an iron fist. I think he wants a friend more than anything.

 

[Jyester]

I think it's a good scene that gets undone by the end of the movie when, for all the movie's attempts at subverting tropes, Kylo still turns into Space Hitler.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I agree, TC.

Driver acted his ass off in the throne room sequence.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I hate that after all that effort Rey put into getting to Kylo to bring him to the light, in that moment she pretty much gives up on his ass at the drop of a dime. I wish they gave her at least one or two more strong pushbacks to Kylo. She just went on a suicide run for his ass. She should be willing to fight for him harder.

Adam Driver is fantastic. I can't believe there are folks who still rip on him for his looks, like after he took his mask off in TFA.

 

[Teeny]

I do love that "Please" because it feels like he is still seeking validations regarding the path he has taken. Kylo going full bat shit at the end of the film when Luke appears and whenever Han is mentioned has so much impact too.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I hate that after all that effort Rey put into getting to Kylo to bring him to the light, in that moment she pretty much gives up on his ass at the drop of a dime. I wish they gave her at least one or two more strong pushbacks to Kylo. She just went on a suicide run for his ass. She should be willing to fight for him harder.

Adam Driver is fantastic. I can't believe there are folks who still rip on him for his looks, like after he took his mask off in TFA.

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I do love that "Please" because it feels like he is still seeking validations regarding the path he has taken. Kylo going full bat shit at the end of the film when Luke appears and whenever Han is mentioned has so much impact too.

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yup.

 

[Dragonyeuw]

They were onto to something in that scene when Kylo was either doing a face-turn, or trying to make a heel out of Rey. I was like 'ohhhh, so they're going this way'....then he ends up going full-out evil by the end anyways. Guess that was subversion within a subversion.

 

[BossAttack]

I hate that after all that effort Rey put into getting to Kylo to bring him to the light, in that moment she pretty much gives up on his ass at the drop of a dime. I wish they gave her at least one or two more strong pushbacks to Kylo. She just went on a suicide run for his ass. She should be willing to fight for him harder.

Adam Driver is fantastic. I can't believe there are folks who still rip on him for his looks, like after he took his mask off in TFA.

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In that moment she realized she made a huge mistake, that Luke was right, Kylo was far too gone. And, he had used her in his scheme to gain further power and usurp the throne.

It's at this moment she clearly "sees" him and who he is.

 

[Klyka]

Kylo Ren is the most fun to watch character in the new movies and Adam Driver plays him incredibly well

 

[THErest]

I think he's trapped. I think he thinks he'd be good with Rey, but it would be an abusive relationship, given the things he says to try to convince her to stay with him. I think, when he woke up and made himself the supreme leader, he was both holding on to that opportunity to have his own army and fleet and also doubling down on being evil, since it's what is expected of the supreme leader. And he's actually, you know, evil.

Plus, he still hates Luke. He wants to kill the past.

 

[Deleted member 135]

It was literally the only good scene in the movie up until she turns her back on Ben.


They could've went full on Fel Empire here, but nope, can't do anything unpredictable or new in the films.

 

[Sephzilla]

It's a fantastic moment and Kylo Ren is definitely the most interesting character in both Force Awakens and Last Jedi, in large part die to Driver acting his ass off. Kind of sucks that shortly after all of this interesting character development, Kylo basically devolves into being a pretty flat Space Hitler character for the finale.

 

[Deleted member 17402]

I do love that "Please" because it feels like he is still seeking validations regarding the path he has taken. Kylo going full bat shit at the end of the film when Luke appears and whenever Han is mentioned has so much impact too.

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Huh. I didn't think of it as validating what he's doing but that seems equally plausible.

 

[MagicHobo]

That is the tragedy of his character. He's looking for some greater purpose or sense of fulfillment that he can never achieve. He put on a cape and a mask and cosplayed as Vader, but that just held him back as a pretender. He killed his dad because he thought it would complete his turn to the dark side, it didn't and only served to tear him apart further. He killed Snoke and assumed control, but Rey rejected him and now his rule is based on a lie (Rey killed snoke) and he is all alone.

Luke is gone, his mom will presumably be gone (he is also still clearly torn on her), now he has nobody else to blame. He'll never have closure or be full. Rey is the last obstacle, but will he continue craving her validation or will he skip that step and obsess over defeating her? Will he be able to bottle his conflict and competently rule The First Order or will it be chaos?

Either way, he'll be a wreck. Very different from the scheming Palpatine, or the towering Vader.

 

[Visanideth]

In that moment she realized she made a huge mistake, that Luke was right, Kylo was far too gone. And, he had used her in his scheme to gain further power and usurp the throne.

It's at this moment she clearly "sees" him and who he is.

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I think that's precisely what the movie sells, and it sells it convincingly, but I still feel like it's not the most interesting route. He's clearly conflicted. If she wanted, she could have fought for his soul here and there, but she gets pushed away and I think what makes her drop all hope of redeeming him isn't the idea that he's impossible to redeem but that it's not worth it.

That's the most tragic aspect of the character. Ben Solo is unwanted. Unwanted by his parents, unwanted by his master, and ultimately rejected by the person he almost proposes to and wants to make his queen. There's something about Ben that pushes people away, and it's not his unprecedented level of evilness (quite frankly he got nothing on the dark side users that preceded him).

The interesting thing about Ben is that nobody really likes him or respects him. This is shown in TFA and ultimately shown in TLJ too. Rejection is his nemesis.

 

[greatgeek]

It was literally the only good scene in the movie up until she turns her back on Ben.


They could've went full on Fel Empire here, but nope, can't do anything unpredictable or new in the films.

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A new direction about establishing a "good" fascist state would be awful.

 

[Deleted member 11626]

That whole sequence is one of my favorites in all of Star Wars

 

[MisterHero]

To be honest I would be interested in seeing what the galaxy looks like under the First Order/Ben Solo. I think we'll get that in IX before the Rebels strike back (tm).

The only major crime he committed was blowing up a village in TFA and that's because they were hiding a map to a war criminal in exile. Obviously.

 

[T'Challa Shakur]

In that moment she realized she made a huge mistake, that Luke was right, Kylo was far too gone. And, he had used her in his scheme to gain further power and usurp the throne.

It's at this moment she clearly "sees" him and who he is.

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He does such a good job. I fully believe this is the grandson of Anankin Skywalker from The Clone Wars

 

[Sephzilla]

I do love that "Please" because it feels like he is still seeking validations regarding the path he has taken. Kylo going full bat shit at the end of the film when Luke appears and whenever Han is mentioned has so much impact too.

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Huh. I didn't think of it as validating what he's doing but that seems equally plausible.

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I don't think the "please" is Kylo Ren seeking validation for the path he's taking. The same goes for why Kylo Ren mentions "Sith" as something to let go of but conveniently omits "The First Order". I think that entire sequence, including killing Snoke, is Kylo Ren consciously and meticulously trying to make himself look more human in order to get Rey to empathize with him and potentially join him. He's basically trying to say all of the things he believes Rey actually wants to hear in order to trick Rey into making the decision to join him voluntarily, similarly to how Kylo Ren says everything to make Rey believe she and here parents were nobodies but stops short of actually saying it for her.

I believe Kylo Ren already went into the throne room with a plan to kill Snoke, so I think it's entirely logical to believe he also had a plan to convince Rey to side with him.

 

[Miamiwesker]

Yes he is desperately wanting a connection to anyone he considers a peer or kindred spirit. That's all well and good but maybe if he stopped KILLING everyone who LOVES him he he would not be alone.

He's an emotional brat that doesn't know what he wants and leaves destruction in his wake. He needs to die.

 

[BossAttack]

To be honest I would be interested in seeing what the galaxy looks like under the First Order/Ben Solo. I think we'll get that in IX before the Rebels strike back (tm).

The only major crime he committed was blowing up a village in TFA and that's because they were hiding a map to a war criminal in exile. Obviously.

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He also murdered his defenseless father and watched in glee as the Starkiller laser went to blow up the Hosnian System.

 

[astro]

I think it's a good scene that gets undone by the end of the movie when, for all the movie's attempts at subverting tropes, Kylo still turns into Space Hitler.

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They we're never trying to subvert this part, though. He was simply conflicted.

You can subvert some things and not others.

 

[kvetcha]

They were onto to something in that scene when Kylo was either doing a face-turn, or trying to make a heel out of Rey. I was like 'ohhhh, so they're going this way'....then he ends up going full-out evil by the end anyways. Guess that was subversion within a subversion.

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I still think the potential for his redemption is the main thread of this sequel trilogy. Depending how things go, Episode IX will either be hugely cathartic or a grand tragedy.

 

[Stouffers]

I thought he wanted to physically join with her. Like graft her body to his. At least that's how I interpreted it.

 

[Deleted member 43514]

In that moment she realized she made a huge mistake, that Luke was right, Kylo was far too gone. And, he had used her in his scheme to gain further power and usurp the throne.

It's at this moment she clearly "sees" him and who he is.

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They both try to turn each other and the novel states like in the old EU visions always lack context. Rey could have killed Kylo in the throne room when he was knocked out but she realized the force had different plans. The sith impose their will upon the will of the force and the Jedi submit themselves. "Luke's failure was thinking bens fate was sealed, my failure was thinking Kylo would be turned so easily just by killing snoke"

 

[Deleted member 11039]

Yeah I don't know if its Driver acting beyond the material or what but there's obviously a lot of anguish and confliction in the character. Which is why its so jarring when his own virtuous mom is just like "Oh yeah, he's totally gone. No biggie."

 

[kvetcha]

Yeah I don't know if its Driver acting beyond the material or what but there's obviously a lot of anguish and confliction in the character. Which is why its so jarring when his own virtuous mom is just like "Oh yeah, he's totally gone. No biggie."

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"No one is ever really gone."

 

[Deleted member 17402]

I still think the potential for his redemption is the main thread of this sequel trilogy. Depending how things go, Episode IX will either be hugely cathartic or a grand tragedy.

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Maybe he'll dial up the desperation and conflict to 11 in IX, where at the very end you think he's finally going to heel turn, only for him to still snap his fingers.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

Yeah I don't really see why Rey didn't at least try to say why don't you join us and burn this evil first order shit to the ground and work to help the Galaxy, not rule it.

Like at least try saying that.

 

[Camwi]

Agreed, OP. If they really wanted to build some hype for the next film, they should've had Rey join him and showed what happened from there. There would be tons of interesting conflicts to build upon.

Instead she beats him for a third time, so that we get to look forward to her beating him for a fucking third time in Episode 9. :/

 

[MisterHero]

He also murdered his defenseless father and watched in glee as the Starkiller laser went to blow up the Hosnian System.

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His father is a war criminal and the Hosnian system was harboring an entire fleet of them. I don't think any of the politics matter to him. He's just one person.

Also it was Hux's fault.

 

[LosDaddie]

It's a great scene, but I didn't think it was anything deep.

Kylo just wanted another powerful Force user on his side. And Rey finally realized that she can't win him over to the Light.

 

[ZackieChan]

In that moment she realized she made a huge mistake, that Luke was right, Kylo was far too gone. And, he had used her in his scheme to gain further power and usurp the throne.

It's at this moment she clearly "sees" him and who he is.

Click to shrink...

Too far gone, in a world where Darth fucking Vader gets turned to good at the end. Ok.

 

[Deleted member 135]

A new direction about establishing a "good" fascist state would be awful.

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You are thinking of it too literally. The Republic didn't work, the Empire didn't work. Ben and Rey could've built something new together, maybe a constitutional monarchy, maybe something else.

 

[Teeny]

I don't think the "please" is Kylo Ren seeking validation for the path he's taking. The same goes for why Kylo Ren mentions "Sith" as something to let go of but conveniently omits "The First Order". I think that entire sequence, including killing Snoke, is Kylo Ren consciously and meticulously trying to make himself look more human in order to get Rey to empathize with him and potentially join him. He's basically trying to say all of the things he believes Rey actually wants to hear in order to trick Rey into making the decision to join him voluntarily, similarly to how Kylo Ren says everything to make Rey believe she and here parents were nobodies but stops short of actually saying it for her.

I believe Kylo Ren already went into the throne room with a plan to kill Snoke, so I think it's entirely logical to believe he also had a plan to convince Rey to side with him.

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Perfectly valid reading :)

I don't think he is a meticulous planner - he isn't that kind of villain for me. He is certainly conflicted and has handled so much rejection and disappointment, I can't see that not shaping his character.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

In that moment she realized she made a huge mistake, that Luke was right, Kylo was far too gone. And, he had used her in his scheme to gain further power and usurp the throne.

It's at this moment she clearly "sees" him and who he is.

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It is hard for me to say he "used" her. I guess you could read the scene as him grasping opportunity to kill Snoke instead of saving her. But, he makes it clear afterwards that he does care for her and wants her to stay with him.

She doesn't do or say anything to convince him to come with her. He literally tells her she means something to him, and she responds by reaching for her lightsaber.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

"No one is ever really gone."

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That wasn't said by his mom, so changes nothing about our beloved Princess Leia seeming to not care about her own son who the movie shows at least has some cracks.

Also, I'm pretty sure that line is mostly just a wink to audience since Luke is about to "die."

 

[Dragonyeuw]

I still think the potential for his redemption is the main thread of this sequel trilogy. Depending how things go, Episode IX will either be hugely cathartic or a grand tragedy.

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Likely, I'm curious as to who will be the penultimate threat to overcome or catalyst for his redemption when it's all said and done.

 

[ThisThingIsUseful]

They were onto to something in that scene when Kylo was either doing a face-turn, or trying to make a heel out of Rey. I was like 'ohhhh, so they're going this way'....then he ends up going full-out evil by the end anyways. Guess that was subversion within a subversion.

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I remember when Rey catching the lightsaber after going through Snoke got a round of applause from my theater the second time. I was thinking, "hehe, if only you guys knew what's about to happen." xD~~

"You're nothing... but not to me." Fantastic line, fantastic delivery.

 

[TerminusFox]

Too far gone, in a world where Darth fucking Vader gets turned to good at the end. Ok.

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That was dumb too. Idiotic even.

Very few redemption stories make sense under scrutiny

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Likely, I'm curious as to who will be the penultimate threat to overcome or catalyst for his redemption when it's all said and done.

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Plagueis

Too far gone, in a world where Darth fucking Vader gets turned to good at the end. Ok.

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Vader had something to change for. His kids and the memory of his dead wife. Kylo's whole family is dead.

 

[kvetcha]

That wasn't said by his mom, so changes nothing about our beloved Princess Leia seeming to not care about her own son who the movie shows at least has some cracks.

Also, I'm pretty sure that line is mostly just a wink to audience since Luke is about to "die."

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Perhaps. Throughout the movie, Leia is all about hope, and in that moment she has none. Not sure you can take her at face value.

Likely, I'm curious as to who will be the penultimate threat to overcome or catalyst for his redemption when it's all said and done.

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Yeah, hard to say. I'm intrigued, though.

 

[Sephzilla]

Perfectly valid reading :)

I don't think he is a meticulous planner - he isn't that kind of villain for me. He is certainly conflicted and has handled so much rejection and disappointment, I can't see that not shaping his character.

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I think that could potentially explain why Kylo Ren kind of snaps and goes full super villain at the end of the movie. He spends most of Episode 7 getting dunked on by Hux because Kylo Ren's plans keep fucking up. Then he finally crafts this big plan in his head to kill Snoke, take over the First Order, and convince Rey to join him, and everything goes perfectly according to plan but at the 11th hour Rey swipes left on him and it kind of tanks Kylo's grand plan. So then maybe he just goes "fuck it" and tries to blow up everything because he's frustrated with being a failure as a leader.

 

[BossAttack]

Too far gone, in a world where Darth fucking Vader gets turned to good at the end. Ok.

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Darth Vader didn't know he had kids. And, we still have Episode 8 to go.

It is hard for me to say he "used" her. I guess you could read the scene as him grasping opportunity to kill Snoke instead of saving her. But, he makes it clear afterwards that he does care for her and wants her to stay with him.

She doesn't do or say anything to convince him to come with her. He literally tells her she means something to him, and she responds by reaching for her lightsaber.

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By telling her to abandon her friends who he's allowing to be wiped out at the moment and join him so they can rule the galaxy together with an Iron Fist. He showed to her that he hadn't changed one bit, he's still an evil little prick.

 

[ZackieChan]

That was dumb too. Idiotic even.

Very few redemption stories make sense under scrutiny

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Luckily you're not in charge of Star Wars. I, and most people who saw it back then when it came out (it's my first theater memory), loved it.
This one, not so much.

 

[Lupercal]

It was literally the only good scene in the movie up until she turns her back on Ben.


They could've went full on Fel Empire here, but nope, can't do anything unpredictable or new in the films.

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So to do something new, you want them to retread something that already exists?

Okay dude.

 

[Nacho]

I think it's a good scene that gets undone by the end of the movie when, for all the movie's attempts at subverting tropes, Kylo still turns into Space Hitler.

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Sure he turns into space hitler, but he has a compelling story and character to go along with it. Funny people were satisfied with vader being space hitler and his redemption after like a handful of mentions of him beign lukes father and no compelling acting to back it up. Kylo's character and acting are killing it on that front.

But I will say, the scene would have been way more impactful if it were the climax of the film, as it is, it gets kinda buried by the planet and luke stuff.

 

[MisterHero]

He's gonna get shot in the back by Hux and we're just going to have to accept it.

No redemption and no catharsis.