Tim Sweeney: “If Valve commits to a permanent 88% revenue share, we’ll stop making new exclusive deals” (Read Staff Post)

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,506
I don't want to say ERA as a whole is "pro developer" because I think it's unfair to generalise, (I mean being pro developer isn't a bad thing in general anyway as long as it doesn't work negatively against you as a consumer.)
Epic definitely isn't pro-developer, if we speak of those who actually work on games. They'll most likely see zero benefit and majority will be collected by publisher and owners.

Classic tactic of giving something else to talk about to hide bad news.
 

TheRed

Member
Oct 31, 2017
546
[


Yea that initial post was not good, I will edit it. Others made it clear why Epic is drawing fire.
Oh nice, thanks for reading the thread and replies and considering them. This issue has got so muddied up in discussions. Idk if you just don't use steam, but I feel like people that haven't been heavy into PC gaming in the last decade or so don't fully understand why steam is what it is. It's not like it was created and bam was huge. They've done a lot of work to make buying games on PC a trustworthy and positive experience. Back when companies avoided PC citing piracy as the reason and that no one on PC wanted to pay for games. Now we have tons of games on PC that never would've thanks to steam like with Sega and other Japanese companies that were console only before. Also paved the way for more services to be successful like gog. Epic hasn't really proven to have a good service, besides getting exclusives.
It's just crazy to be fully rooting for Epic in my opinion, even for someone who doesn't really like using steam.
 

PrimeBeef

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
....88/12 is unsustainable? Proof please? All I've heard from people in the industry is that is plenty for a storefront. Why should devs/pubs get robbed, just because it is the standard line you said? What a terrible reason. Because it all goes to only pubs? Might be true, but how do you know that? And at least those people took risk on the game

People are just being babies about the EPIC store not launching perfectly -_- and boohoo they'll have to download another client for some games

Whatever. My friends have epic store, I think its working and I'm glad
Sweeney said it was unsustainable in the long run. But whatever man, if you enjoy supporting anti-consumer practices then go right ahead. Games are not that important, even though it is my biggest hobby, I can wait for certain games to no longer be exclusives only because EGS has no value as a storefront without money-hatting for exclusives.
 

inpHilltr8r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,192
It is simple, we know how much some of the payment methods take for processing fees so we can figure out that 12% is not viable. For example 90% of payments in Asia on Steam are done by non standard methods so that means higher processing fees for many of those payment methods. If Valve consider PaySafe standard payment method and that service can take 6-7% off each payment imagine how higher are fees for non standard ones. Add to that huge popularity of payment by cash (that includes Steam Wallet Cards that cost Valve 10-15% to put in store) it is easy to figure out that 12% is not enough for Valve. On top of that Valve gives developers option to generate keys for free and sell them outside of Steam where they get 0%, if 20% of all games are sold outside of the Steam for example their cut is automatically lower.
I dunno, I can see the argument, but there's still not enough detail in the numbers for me. I mean, I've just done my taxes, and the word "imagine" doesn't really cut it with the IRS (hmm, actually not strictly true as I did submit estimated numbers for some things).

I mean, if it's easy to figure out, it should be easy to follow through on the statement and show the working.

Still, this is fascinating stuff. If a bit emotionally loaded.
 

Zealuu

Member
Feb 13, 2018
473
Sorry if someone posted this already, but this RPS take reflect my feelings pretty well https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/04/25/epic-store-would-end-exclusives-if-steam-gave-devs-larger-cut-ceo-claims/

Which… is a nice idea, but I can’t say I believe him. A clear intent of Epic paying megabucks for exclusives is to bootstrap their own Store, to try to become a profitable rival to Steam by securing big games from big developers and publishers. They’re burning huge amounts of cash now to gain users and make even more in the future. Sweeney’s implication that they’re only doing it to pressure Steam into treating developers better is laughable. Their store, as a store for customers to use, is worse than most of its rivals – scloosies are its saving grace.

I certainly support Valve giving developers a larger cut of Steam sales, to be clear. I’d love for my scepticism to be proven misplaced. I’ll also point out that Epic going on about caring for developers while reportedly massively overworking their own employees is iffy at best.

Epic’s longing to be seen as saviours of PC gaming is frustrating. Their pretence that they’re not trying to straight-up buy a share of PC gaming is daft. The over-enthusiastic (and disingenuous-feeling) hyperbole from Sweeney and other connected industry figures makes me feel they think we’re rubes. God, don’t even get me started on Gearbox boss Randy Pitchford saying their next boring game being Epic-exclusive will end Steam’s supposed monopoly. I know that you’re running businesses and that businesses both need and want money. Please abandon this television evangelist act.
 

Johnny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
482
Oh nice, thanks for reading the thread and replies and considering them. This issue has got so muddied up in discussions. Idk if you just don't use steam, but I feel like people that haven't been heavy into PC gaming in the last decade or so don't fully understand why steam is what it is. It's not like it was created and bam was huge. They've done a lot of work to make buying games on PC a trustworthy and positive experience. Back when companies avoided PC citing piracy as the reason and that no one on PC wanted to pay for games. Now we have tons of games on PC that never would've thanks to steam like with Sega and other Japanese companies that were console only before. Also paved the way for more services to be successful like gog. Epic hasn't really proven to have a good service, besides getting exclusives.
It's just crazy to be fully rooting for Epic in my opinion, even for someone who doesn't really like using steam.
I already liked Steam and have used them for years. That said, the thread did provide a perspective about the value they add to the PC ecosystem. I think more competition is good overall but I understand why people are upset about how Epic is choosing to compete.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,030
Sorry if someone posted this already, but this RPS take reflect my feelings pretty well https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/04/25/epic-store-would-end-exclusives-if-steam-gave-devs-larger-cut-ceo-claims/


Which… is a nice idea, but I can’t say I believe him. A clear intent of Epic paying megabucks for exclusives is to bootstrap their own Store, to try to become a profitable rival to Steam by securing big games from big developers and publishers. They’re burning huge amounts of cash now to gain users and make even more in the future. Sweeney’s implication that they’re only doing it to pressure Steam into treating developers better is laughable. Their store, as a store for customers to use, is worse than most of its rivals – scloosies are its saving grace.

I certainly support Valve giving developers a larger cut of Steam sales, to be clear. I’d love for my scepticism to be proven misplaced. I’ll also point out that Epic going on about caring for developers while reportedly massively overworking their own employees is iffy at best.

Epic’s longing to be seen as saviours of PC gaming is frustrating. Their pretence that they’re not trying to straight-up buy a share of PC gaming is daft. The over-enthusiastic (and disingenuous-feeling) hyperbole from Sweeney and other connected industry figures makes me feel they think we’re rubes. God, don’t even get me started on Gearbox boss Randy Pitchford saying their next boring game being Epic-exclusive will end Steam’s supposed monopoly. I know that you’re running businesses and that businesses both need and want money. Please abandon this television evangelist act.

They are actually reporting on Tim and Company's bullshit. I am shook. This might be the first critical article of the Epic Games Store. Good show on RPS!

 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,888
If valve really wanted to they could probably switch to 99% developer 1% valve split and absorb any losses but to what end?
Devs are probably not going to EGS to the 88 / 12 split, but for that big upfront cash money.
 
Oct 28, 2017
479
Tim Sweeney tries awfully hard to convince us Valve is evil and Steam is the worst thing to happen to PC gaming. Can't he just enjoy his shitty storefront and handful of customers and just shut up.

He's just trying to deflect from the news that Epic has people slaving away endlessly on Fortnite. I bet those developers are SO happy Tim.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,708
He's just making it easier and easier to skip his store. I mean, for me. All this noise making might workout for him in the end, although I think the result is going to be pretty much chaotic and random. But for me, these exclusive games are just releasing into a six-month purgatory where they'll come out half price.
 
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DangerMouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,875
Tim Sweeney tries awfully hard to convince us Valve is evil and Steam is the worst thing to happen to PC gaming. Can't he just enjoy his shitty storefront and handful of customers and just shut up.

He's just trying to deflect from the news that Epic has people slaving away endlessly on Fortnite. I bet those developers are SO happy Tim.
This.
The Idon'tbelieveyou gif was the perfect response to his statement.

Hadn't seen this yet, thanks. Good read.
 

KDR_11k

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,801
Come to think of it, wouldn't that mean that Epic would kill the store in that case? So what about those people who bought games on there?

And generally, how are they going to compete after their ability to buy exclusives runs out? Having the store on people's PCs won't make them buy games there instead of Steam. Does that make you worry about the longevity of your purchases or do you think they'll just keep the thing around for a decade anyway?
 

RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
I really dont understand why people think Epic is worse than Valve. 30% cut is absolutely ridiculous and was clearly only possible due to Valves borderline monopoly.

More $ to devs = good! Means less need for MTX and more $ for them to invest in games
If you care so much about dev revenue and platform cuts, why are you playing Destiny 2 on Xbox instead of giving 100% of your $60 to Bungie Activision on Battle.Net?
 
OP
OP
Carlius

Carlius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,071
Buenos Aires, Argentina
i want my games on steam, period. i can wait 6 months or a year, i will NOT buy the game TWICE just to play it when it releases on epic shit store and then on steam because i can finally have it there.
 

Sman1

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
29
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Heya, just decided to say that you're doing god's work there defending poor guy Tim. Maybe some of his employees who are working 100h / week could help you with that. After all, Tim has proven to honor his tweets and dismissing people's disbelief on him is the right thing to do.
Okay, fair enough. Could I get examples of when he previously tweeted something and did not honor it?
 

Sman1

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
29
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
User Banned (Permanent): Troll account. Numerous severe infractions whilst in junior phase.
You meant the capitalist monster that makes his devs work 80-100 work weeks and then claims he is ‘for the developers’?

Apparently not the developers that work under him?
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,197
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
Please read this and then come back and blame the employees.
https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/23/18507750/fortnite-work-crunch-epic-games
 

Shengar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,047
I already liked Steam and have used them for years. That said, the thread did provide a perspective about the value they add to the PC ecosystem. I think more competition is good overall but I understand why people are upset about how Epic is choosing to compete.
If you still wanted to know what justify Valve's 30% besides they are not actually that much in the bigger picture here's mine that I compiled from devs posts here in ERA:

"Key generation withing sensible amount (obviously), API to track your sales data (a data that you had to pay extra with physical distribution), small entrant fee (as oppose to console's licensing fee AND manufacturing payment), Steam Community (basically a free forum), and of course the upcoming Steam network API for third party devs."
 

RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
The thing I want to reply to you with would get me banned, so all I'll say is this: you have no idea what you're talking about, and I sincerely hope you never become a manager or boss anywhere.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,030
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
Wow. Just wow. All in defense of a corporation. People who support EGS are truly pro developer...
 
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Pazmatic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
70
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
I don't know if you're naive but that is one hell of a victim blame.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,486
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
this is fucking disgusting
 

Juan29.Zapata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,714
Colombia
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
Yeah, because all working class people have the luxury of quitting and look for a job?

"But they can go to another city/state!". Yeah, because, all developers are single or have a family who are willing to drop everything in their lives to go elsewhere, and have money to move in an industry that doesn't care to fire hundreds of its workers despite making healthy profit.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,708
A developer could try to find a better offer and leave, but another will soon take her seat in that awful environment the company sees fit to maintain.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,708
I mean, the guy's entertaining. At least give him that.
o/

I'll admit it. Now I don't take this epic situation lighlty. I believe it's getting to be a serious problem. Not in the PC gaming market as many fear, but in the PC gaming community right here.

I allow myself some base enjoyment of all this agitation though. I suppose I'm trading a bit of hardline determination to make room for a sense of humor. Without that, I reckon I would be driven to pulling my hair out like so many good posters here have.

I manage to enjoy these epic threads. One after another. It's like surfing waves of bullshit. Shooting down the repetitive fallacious arguments is like shooting beer cans off the fence. I don't get bored. I shoot them behind the back. Blindfolded. Drunk. You know - mix it up.

And I have to pull triple time now that two of my favorite posters - Bernardo and Wiley - are gone now. I'm good for it, though.
 
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Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,030
No .

This is an opinion piece, even if it isn't insane like many other opinions. This is not Journalism.
Truth. You are right. It's an opinion piece. I jumped the gun by calling inferring it was an article simply because this feels like the first time anyone from the gaming press is addressing consumer concerns and not being outright dismissive.
 
Dec 30, 2018
1,492
Alright, that's fair. No one should ever have to forcibly work 100 hour weeks. That's insane and cruel, however, if they choose to do this then it's on them. I know, there are dev's who work for 80 - 100 hours per week because they fear they will be fired...but is that not their own fault? Instead of speaking up and airing their issues, they resort to begrudgingly doing the work and complaining about it online...I assure you if I was the boss and found out, they would be fired. I want a genuine discussion here, Tim is in the wrong if he created an atmosphere where you feel threatened to work 80+ hour weeks BUT it is also the employees fault for not standing up for him/herself.
Wow, makes me wonder how many of these troll accounts post in these Epic threads.

Awful awful post.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,087
Damn, man. That's quite a quote. I can't say I agree with the premise that developers working during a crunch are at fault.

"Why aren't you guys pro devs like Epic?"

"Those Epic devs working crunch time are at fault for those 100 hour weeks!"

This is what happens when you just leave all logic behind to shill for something regardless of reality. You end up trying to justify nonsense with nonsense while everyone laughs at you from afar.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,315
Nintendo develops their own hardware ecosystem which means a lot of fixed costs and risk. So do Microsoft and Sony. Valve builds on the existing PC ecosystem. If anything your question proves my point. They are charging developers the same as Nintendo without creating their own hardware ecosystem.

Also, Nintendo has a monopoly on the Switch store, so them charging 30% shows that this is probably the equilibrium monopoly pricing (they can’t raise it any further without hurting demand for their store). So yeah, this comparison doesn’t put valve in the best light.
... Nintendo, MS, and Sony all charge for online and have no competition on their own devices anyway. And even then they have less features.
 

RageBawt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
339
I would love to see Valve call the bluff because I think there is no chance Epic would follow through.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,478
Looks like this author's been opposed to EGS for awhile now:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/04/03/borderlands-3-release-date-announced/ said:
I get that the Epic Games Store has advantages for publishers, giving them a larger cut of sales and more direct contact with customers, but I still don’t see direct advantages for us. Epic’s client lacks many features Steam has had for years, Steam has my Friends list all set up and good to go, and… look, I get it. If this helps keep unsustainable ‘AAA’ development going longer then it’s good for those who rely on it. But don’t pretend Epic’s store is better.
Albeit this appears to be their first article dedicated to that opinion, which I'm surprised to see.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,813
If Valve gave a permanent 88% revenue share, then Epic would see devs and customers go back to Steam. Wouldn't be very good for Epic.