Tim Sweeney (Epic Games): Companies should divorce from politics, Android is a fake open system, iOS is worse, "respect Gamer rights and freedoms"

X-Peaceman-X

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
303
It
You're not making any sense - if a company decides to be more inclusive and add more PoC characters in hopes to appeal more to minorities, who enjoy playing those characters, its not immoral. You're borderline riding that gamergate logic.
The point is they aren’t trying to appeal to minorities out of good intentions. The answer here is for us to clear the way for minorities to be in the industry and this have more genuine tales represent them.
Appealing to someone just to sell better is wrong imo. But I do understand that the second hand view of these types of decisions is that in the end a less included people got to be included and I think that’s great, I just wish it was all genuine and from a place of endearment not greed
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
120
He totally can do that if he desires, on Android.

He could pay manufacturers to bundle it with the rest of their shovelware.
But he doesn’t want to pay. That’s his whole schtick, he didn’t want to pay ms a cut to sell on the ms store (prelude to the infamous “ms will ruin gaming” screed). Didn’t want to pay steam a cut so made the EGS for his games but it didn’t have enough paid users so they walled exclusives off. Now he’s probably been trying for months/years to do the same on mobile and the best thing he’s got going is side loading fortnite onto select android devices.
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
But he doesn’t want to pay. That’s his whole schtick, he didn’t want to pay ms a cut to sell on the ms store (prelude to the infamous “ms will ruin gaming” screed). Didn’t want to pay steam a cut so made the EGS for his games but it didn’t have enough paid users so they walled exclusives off. Now he’s probably been trying for months/years to do the same on mobile and the best thing he’s got going is side loading fortnite onto select android devices.
Oh, I know.

But he can do it, he has the money. He doesn't really have an excuse to being cheap.
 

X-Peaceman-X

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
303
Ok so prove it then since you just followed up this post saying that this happens
A quick example would be life is strange Is clearly a genuine take on a trans character and is from a place of either endearment or experience. Wher as if suddenly escape from tarkov included women we would all know it was just the PR department.
I’m not saying we would always know but that if that’s something your worried about then hold them accountable.
my answer to dickheads screaming misogynistic bullcrap is to ignore them.

my main issue is wanting art to be genuine and wanting everyone to be able to express themselves freely without doubt.
 
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X-Peaceman-X

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
303
Do you have examples of marketing teams pressuring dev teams to include minorities in their game for money or are you just so high on your bullshit that you think anyone who isn't white in games isn't the "default" and has to justify their existence?
And just like that I ended this conversation. Wow how easy that was, someone was an asswhipe and i ignore them.

I am one of those minorities btw! Thanks!
 

bishoptl

Remember
Member
Oct 26, 2017
500
Vancouver
So just because someone might cry foul we shouldn’t do it? No you ignore those assholes. I’m not saying don’t do it unless it fits, I’m saying for devs to stay true to their vision and not allow some marketing guy to throw crap in a game just to appeal to anyone, right left or middle. That’s immoral imo. Who knows if they are assholes and because they included a lady now we think their great cause of smart marketing. Just follow your vision.

If your afraid that minorities will be under represented then we need more minorities in the industry to justly represent themselves. Having to shoehorn inclusion into games is disrespectful to those minorities being shoehorned in just for brownie points imo
"shoehorn inclusion"

Get the entire fuck out of here with that bullshit.

How is a woman in your game shoehorning? Or a Maori? Or a trans person?

Thanks for standing up for minorities by ensuring they're not represented unless it makes sense to people like you, good looking out
 

Slayven

1000% Demon King
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
43,011
This is an interesting point since by his logic a union would basically be impossible unless 100% of employees supported it. And of course we know Fortnite crunch was brutal.
His words about mission always reminds me of all that corprate team speak that is bullshit. and how you can quickly become "not a team player" or "not a good fit" if you don't become a mindless drone
 

X-Peaceman-X

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
303
User Banned (permanent): trolling in a sensitive topic, previous severe infraction
"shoehorn inclusion"

Get the entire fuck out of here with that bullshit.

How is a woman in your game shoehorning? Or a Maori? Or a trans person?

Thanks for standing up for minorities by ensuring they're not represented unless it makes sense to people like you, good looking out
Never said it had to make sense, please kindly reread my shit. I said id like it to stay true to the authors of the material. for the artists representation. If you really wanna talk about it read my previous responses, where i clearly state that I would love for more minorities to be in the industry and that we need to tear the industry open so that they can feel comfortable creating content as they see fit and not following anyone elses narrative.

but yeas a PR or marketing team including a minority just to get higher sales or good PR is disrespectful, and i say that as a minority myself.

Thanks!
 

Slayven

1000% Demon King
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
43,011
Never said it had to make sense, please kindly reread my shit. I said id like it to stay true to the authors of the material. for the artists representation. If you really wanna talk about it read my previous responses, where i clearly state that I would love for more minorities to be in the industry and that we need to tear the industry open so that they can feel comfortable creating content as they see fit and not following anyone elses narrative.

but yeas a PR or marketing team including a minority just to get higher sales or good PR is disrespectful, and i say that as a minority myself.

Thanks!
Any examples where that happen?
 

Twister

Member
Feb 11, 2019
588
Really hope Microsoft and Valve can run Epic out of the market just so I don't have to hear this dude spew nonsense all the time
 

kitchenmotors

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,710
Seriously he can fuck off. That Chik-Fil-A comment really pisses me off.

Won’t be buying anything from this company ever again. Fucking alt right douche bag.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,820
Never said it had to make sense, please kindly reread my shit. I said id like it to stay true to the authors of the material. for the artists representation. If you really wanna talk about it read my previous responses, where i clearly state that I would love for more minorities to be in the industry and that we need to tear the industry open so that they can feel comfortable creating content as they see fit and not following anyone elses narrative.

but yeas a PR or marketing team including a minority just to get higher sales or good PR is disrespectful, and i say that as a minority myself.

Thanks!
People rattle the argument a lot that "forced inclusion" is immoral but the pattern in the industry has been that people with "artistic visions" end up not including diversity because they're either ignorant or resistant to actually putting it in (i.e. using excuses about how a fantasy country is European so of course no black people would be around). "Forced diversity" isn't an epidemic. The epidemic and impediment to the industry is devs who are simply lazy on matters of diversity in general from in and outside of their creative works. You can say it's gross that someone black gets hired as a "PR stunt" (when I've rarely seen such a thing happen), but I'd say a minority finally getting access to a homogeneous and stifled community of creatives that rarely put diversity at the forefront of their minds and getting paid to be the voice in the room to make games more thoughtful and diverse is progress regardless of some marketing exec's personal gross and surface level motives.
 
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Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,552
Really hope Microsoft and Valve can run Epic out of the market just so I don't have to hear this dude spew nonsense all the time
There are big companies that have been big for so long they have a good understanding of how to appear moral to people, Epic and Tim Sweeney came into money real fucking fast with Fortnite and its clear Tim needs to staple his mouth shut cause jesus christ everytime he talks its just a load of BS.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,329
"shoehorn inclusion"

Get the entire fuck out of here with that bullshit.

How is a woman in your game shoehorning? Or a Maori? Or a trans person?

Thanks for standing up for minorities by ensuring they're not represented unless it makes sense to people like you, good looking out
Is it in bad taste for me to quote myself from the last page?

Members of the majority are free to be apolitical, but minorities' very existence is a political statement. A straight cisgender white man as a hero is simply the default, while any deviance from that is a statement. The statement has to be inspected, we have to ask if justified and if it's good enough, and if it isn't it belongs silently back in the mouth. But the default simply gets to be.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,336
"Forced" diversity is bad, lazy and thoughtless homogeneity is good.
/s, obviously.
 
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i-Lo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
13,959
Not America
Never said it had to make sense, please kindly reread my shit. I said id like it to stay true to the authors of the material. for the artists representation. If you really wanna talk about it read my previous responses, where i clearly state that I would love for more minorities to be in the industry and that we need to tear the industry open so that they can feel comfortable creating content as they see fit and not following anyone elses narrative.

but yeas a PR or marketing team including a minority just to get higher sales or good PR is disrespectful, and i say that as a minority myself.

Thanks!
We've been down this road before. Between adapting work from materials from yesteryear where racial and gender disparities were much greater and this wonderfully on-point comment from Rod Fergusson (when speaking about Gears 5 and diversity):

comments like yours come off as tone-deaf at best. I say tone-deaf and not racially much more problematic because you do mention that there needs to be more PoC within the industry themselves. But in any event, I don't see them being 'majority' and thus the issue remains.
 

Alucrid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,775
you have an 8 hour car ride and have to be locked in there with either tim sweeney or john carmack and listen to their industry hot takes. who do you choose?
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,820
We've been down this road before. Between adapting work from materials from yesteryear where racial and gender disparities were much greater and this wonderfully on-point comment from Rod Fergusson (when speaking about Gears 5 and diversity):

comments like yours come off as tone-deaf at best.
This. People don't seem to understand the reason this has to be done purposefully is because of history. The existence of systematic prejudice against the marginalized is a human sickness that isn't going to go away without being directly addressed and if industries and institutions are left to their own devices, bigotry, conscious or not, will default to keeping out the disenfranchised from the areas where they could make a difference because that's they way this society was founded; through oppression and exclusion.
 
Aug 28, 2019
311
“The world is really screwed up right now. Right now our political orientations determine which fast-food chicken restaurant you go to [alluding to Chik Fil-A’s political affiliations and the cultural response to it]? And that’s really dumb,” said Sweeney.
Chick-Fil-A positioned itself as a political actor. They made that move. On purpose. Don't you shame consumers for paying attention to it.

“There’s no reason to drag divisive topics like that into gaming at all.”
"Topics like that" referring to... what, exactly? Topics that Chick-Fil-A is known for having public opinions about, maybe? Like same-sex relationships and marriage rights? There's no reason for games to portray same-sex relationships? Jesus, there's a fucking political statement.

Or maybe he means that his company shouldn't take a public position on "topics like that?" Quick, Tim - does your company's benefits package include trans-inclusive and same-sex-partner-inclusive health care? What about your harassment and discrimination policies - do they include any groups not explicitly protected by state or federal law? Be careful, Tim - make sure your answers don't have any political implications!

"If a game tackles politics, as To Kill a Mockingbird did as a novel, it should come from the heart of creatives and not from marketing departments seeking to capitalize on division."
This is the capstone, really. This is 100% Gamergate bullshit being mindlessly repeated by an influential industry figure (didn't we just have one of those the other day?). Every time there's a game that doesn't star enough white steroid men or sex dolls, the GG trash crawls out of their hole to scream and howl about the pandering and the forced diversity and how the creative team's pristine vision was strongarmed by their PC overlords. To them, this is the only explanation, because they cannot imagine that anyone in the industry would create a diverse game just because they wanted to, or because that diversity reflected the actual team and their experiences. Then someone pulls out the "black trans lesbian" punching bag to illustrate what they think is the irrational endpoint of the slippery diversity slope, because they think diversity is a point-buy system that starts at "cishet white man", rather than a representation of real peoples' lives. Then they start talking about attack helicopters. Because none of this stems from malice and bigotry, it's all just sincere concern for the integrity of art.

It's interesting that gators never find fault with white men being "shoehorned" into a game (or onto the box art or advertisements - you know, marketing materials) for political or marketing reasons. Not even if every single character in the game is one. That's just the creators expressing their honest vision or reflecting the real world or historical accuracy or whatever the fuck.

It's interesting, too, how gators simultaneously believe that a) diversity doesn't sell, GG represents the 99%, get woke go broke, and b) diversity in games is a cynical and calculated move to maximize profit at the expense of art. Bonus points for the ones who also defend unscrupulous MTX / DLC practices because "companies exist to make money." Because apparently, making as much money as possible by any means possible regardless of any detriment to the game or the audience is a self-justifying moral imperative, but not if it means adding more diversity! That's the one marketing transgression that CANNOT STAND.
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
639
What an absolutely stupid, privileged thing to say. It's sad that some people have to think about which fast food chicken to eat because one of them will donate your money to try and make sure you can't get married. How do you not identify Chic-Fil-A as wrong and go after the customer talking about it?

Appreciate Sweeney outing himself as completely clueless though.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,578
Indonesia
Should we start banning EGS discussions in here? Or at least giving a proper reminder in every thread?

The thought that we're promoting the store and its games so that this asshole get even richer gives me the creeps.
 

Rosebud

Member
Apr 16, 2018
7,777
Chick-Fil-A positioned itself as a political actor. They made that move. On purpose. Don't you shame consumers for paying attention to it.


"Topics like that" referring to... what, exactly? Topics that Chick-Fil-A is known for having public opinions about, maybe? Like same-sex relationships and marriage rights? There's no reason for games to portray same-sex relationships? Jesus, there's a fucking political statement.

Or maybe he means that his company shouldn't take a public position on "topics like that?" Quick, Tim - does your company's benefits package include trans-inclusive and same-sex-partner-inclusive health care? What about your harassment and discrimination policies - do they include any groups not explicitly protected by state or federal law? Be careful, Tim - make sure your answers don't have any political implications!


This is the capstone, really. This is 100% Gamergate bullshit being mindlessly repeated by an influential industry figure (didn't we just have one of those the other day?). Every time there's a game that doesn't star enough white steroid men or sex dolls, the GG trash crawls out of their hole to scream and howl about the pandering and the forced diversity and how the creative team's pristine vision was strongarmed by their PC overlords. To them, this is the only explanation, because they cannot imagine that anyone in the industry would create a diverse game just because they wanted to, or because that diversity reflected the actual team and their experiences. Then someone pulls out the "black trans lesbian" punching bag to illustrate what they think is the irrational endpoint of the slippery diversity slope, because they think diversity is a point-buy system that starts at "cishet white man", rather than a representation of real peoples' lives. Then they start talking about attack helicopters. Because none of this stems from malice and bigotry, it's all just sincere concern for the integrity of art.

It's interesting that gators never find fault with white men being "shoehorned" into a game (or onto the box art or advertisements - you know, marketing materials) for political or marketing reasons. Not even if every single character in the game is one. That's just the creators expressing their honest vision or reflecting the real world or historical accuracy or whatever the fuck.

It's interesting, too, how gators simultaneously believe that a) diversity doesn't sell, GG represents the 99%, get woke go broke, and b) diversity in games is a cynical and calculated move to maximize profit at the expense of art. Bonus points for the ones who also defend unscrupulous MTX / DLC practices because "companies exist to make money." Because apparently, making as much money as possible by any means possible regardless of any detriment to the game or the audience is a self-justifying moral imperative, but not if it means adding more diversity! That's the one marketing transgression that CANNOT STAND.
Perfect post.
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,552
Should we start banning EGS discussions in here? Or at least giving a proper reminder in every thread?

The thought that we're promoting the store and its games so that this asshole get even richer gives me the creeps.
He would have to keep going pretty deep for that to ever happen there are alot of rich assholes that say similar stuff. I think if he ever starts quoting race bait shit then ERA will.
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,588
This is the capstone, really. This is 100% Gamergate bullshit being mindlessly repeated by an influential industry figure (didn't we just have one of those the other day?). Every time there's a game that doesn't star enough white steroid men or sex dolls, the GG trash crawls out of their hole to scream and howl about the pandering and the forced diversity and how the creative team's pristine vision was strongarmed by their PC overlords. To them, this is the only explanation, because they cannot imagine that anyone in the industry would create a diverse game just because they wanted to, or because that diversity reflected the actual team and their experiences. Then someone pulls out the "black trans lesbian" punching bag to illustrate what they think is the irrational endpoint of the slippery diversity slope, because they think diversity is a point-buy system that starts at "cishet white man", rather than a representation of real peoples' lives. Then they start talking about attack helicopters. Because none of this stems from malice and bigotry, it's all just sincere concern for the integrity of art.
Mindlessly? That's giving Sweeney a lot of benefit of the doubt.
 

lusca_bueno

Member
Nov 23, 2017
712
I don't get people not wanting to support diversity because it's "shoehorned" and coming from a greedy positioning, but still supports non-diverse casts which clearly comes from the same greedy positioning of appealing to a supposedly larger demographic of uneducated people lol
 

Tommcatt

Member
Apr 26, 2019
797
I don't get people not wanting to support diversity because it's "shoehorned" and coming from a greedy positioning, but still supports non-diverse casts which clearly comes from the same greedy positioning of appealing to a supposedly larger demographic of uneducated people lol
LMAO, this is kinda where I'm at. As long as it isn't a shitty representation/depiction then I'm always for diversity.