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TLJ Luke (depressed and cynical) vs TROS Luke (who is faithful to OT era Luke): Which did you prefer?
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
TLJ Luke gets redemption and sacrifices himself as the hero that he always was. He embraced the force and even spells it out by saying "I will not be the last Jedi." It's a meaningful sacrifice and in-line with his character.
TROS Luke is like "OH GEE, ISN'T THE FORCE RADICAL?! HERE, TAKE A FUCKING X-WING, GO DO SOME FORCE SHIT, WOO HOO, GOOOOOO JEDI!"
Put me down for TLJ Luke, thanks.
TROS Luke is like "OH GEE, ISN'T THE FORCE RADICAL?! HERE, TAKE A FUCKING X-WING, GO DO SOME FORCE SHIT, WOO HOO, GOOOOOO JEDI!"
Put me down for TLJ Luke, thanks.
For me there's nothing incongruent with how TROS Luke acts in following TLJ, it's his place in the story that the movie ruins.
Instead of being the one who lit the spark to inspire the galaxy they still aren't doing shit in TROS until Lando talks to them cause they needed him to do something important. They never followed up on him seeing Kylo again, and all the issues with bringing Sheev back and thus retroactively making him an even bigger failure. The bad wig and acting was the icing on the cake, he was in the movie cause he has "had to be". Him talking to Rey doesn't hit at all because they barely had a relationship in comparison to Yoda talking to Luke in TLJ.
It felt like TFA where they KNOW they have to address Luke but they don't have any real plans for his character or role in the story, unlike that movie they couldn't kick the can down the road and now you get this kind of meaningless Luke in TROS.
Luke in the sequel trilogy is one of the big examples of how the movies try to serve two masters in trying to pass the torch and develop new heroes while at the same time gushing over the OT and how great it is and it ends up falling both.
Instead of being the one who lit the spark to inspire the galaxy they still aren't doing shit in TROS until Lando talks to them cause they needed him to do something important. They never followed up on him seeing Kylo again, and all the issues with bringing Sheev back and thus retroactively making him an even bigger failure. The bad wig and acting was the icing on the cake, he was in the movie cause he has "had to be". Him talking to Rey doesn't hit at all because they barely had a relationship in comparison to Yoda talking to Luke in TLJ.
It felt like TFA where they KNOW they have to address Luke but they don't have any real plans for his character or role in the story, unlike that movie they couldn't kick the can down the road and now you get this kind of meaningless Luke in TROS.
Luke in the sequel trilogy is one of the big examples of how the movies try to serve two masters in trying to pass the torch and develop new heroes while at the same time gushing over the OT and how great it is and it ends up falling both.
OP
OP
LOL. Thats a terrible miscalculation from LucasFilms storygroup. Shows you how out-of-touch (or mishandled by higher-ups) they are. There is a huge amount of historical baggage in using Luke Skywalker (or any character-driven media in general) in any new Star Wars movie even if its just for a supporting role. As i said earlier, you wanna alter main character traits of the lead protagonist from the OT you better do due diligence with the buildup on his backstory changes. Something that TLJ writers and director did not do . . . . and thats why a significant number of Star Wars fans hated TLJ for what it did to Luke's character.
In terms of 'shit just got real' severity scale, force visions about some terrible future involving your nephew is still pretty low compared to your Sith Lord father trying to kill you for the Emperor and your family and friends in the Rebellion getting massacred at the present time.
Luke handled stress and situations getting pear-shaped pretty well(ie. Second Death Star is actually fully operational, surprise!) by the time RotJ credits rolled in. No reason for him to be written as some impulsive, weak-willed newb toward negative force visions involving Ben Solo in TLJ without proper build-up and backstory changes. Force visions are too weak a reason for a SW audience to believe that Luke would go straight contemplating a lethal solution in dealing with his nephew. There should be more TLJ build-up scenes showing the gradual erosion of the uncle and nephew relationship to sell that final breach in Ben Solo's bedroom.
Doesnt matter if TLJ Luke kicked the door down or just went through because its open . . . . he is still in his nephew's room with an ignited lightsaber. Anyone in Kylo's position is going to act and think of self-preservation. And Luke was conveniently written by the TLJ writers to be a deaf-mute Jedi Master unable to explanation the situation to his nephew to try and redeem him.
TLJ writers are free to 'humanize' - whatever that means, Luke is pretty down-to-Earth dude even when he was a Jedi Master - and explore the concept of 'failure' with Luke Skywalker . . . . its just that the 'failure' plot and story they come-up with in TLJ was STUPID and has a FLIMSY backstory foundation (ie. dark thoughts and visions, must kill nephew, noooo, *clunk on the head*, mah students NOOOoooOOOO, SHAME!, Sorry Leia your on your own, even though your husband left you, even though i still havent redeemed your genocidal son , imma gonna leave you and mop around some far-off planet!). His 'sacrifice' at the end of TLJ feels weak because of this.
TLJ Luke was inconsistent character-wise with his previous end-of-RotJ depiction. His backstory needed more TLJ scenes to flesh-out whatever character changes happened in particular to his relation ship with Ben Solo.
Because Kylo reacted like this:
Luke didn't even get the chance to try to talk to Ben. And by the time he woke up Kylo had destroyed his temple and killed the students. There is no sequence of events where it would be plausible for there to be a conversation between the two OR for Luke to react like this with grace:
Like i said before bullshit writing. TLJ writers couldve written something better but they didnt. And they deserve the criticisms they get regarding the way they wrote Luke in particular the foundation of his conflict with Ben Solo. Its just not believable.
-dark thoughts and visions
-must kill nephew
-noooo
-*clunk on the head*
-mah students NOOOoooOOOO
-SHAME!
- Sorry Leia your on your own, even though your husband is left you (and soon to be dead), your genocidal son is still unredeemed, imma still gonna leave you and mop around some far-off planet!
- Save Martha!
- Why did you say that name
-Thats his mother's name!
Within the context of a family member being influenced by the Dark Side of the Force, i would expect post-RotJ Jedi Master Luke Skywalker to handle things much, much better than most if not all Jedi Master given his experiences in ESB and RotJ. Nebulous Force visions, Dark Side temptations, redeeming someone etc. Luke has first-hand knowledge and experience dealing with that, its costs and consequences . . . . that's why the conflict between Luke and Ben Solo as shown in TLJ was weak and laughable and undermines the rest of Luke's and Kylo's interactions.
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They're both kinda shit?
Honestly, while it's kinda watchable as a "what if Luke went crazy" scenario, it's not really believable that he would act like he does in VIII.
To that point he's seen the most evil person in the galaxy turn back from the Dark Side and redeem himself first hand and he also knows that there is 100% life after death being able to commune with freaking ghosts.
I don't really buy that even a massacre of a Jedi temple would cause him to completely up and quit life and/or none of Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan would talk some sense into him until Yoda conveniently does in TLJ.
Especially Anakin, it's just not believable he wouldn't at some point have a 5 minute conversation with Anakin in like several years that there's always light even in the midst of the deepest darkness.
Both the prequel and sequel trilogies are failures in story telling, neither has a believable, satisfying story start to finish, the only Star Wars trilogy that actually has a story to tell and does it well is the OT. Things just happen in the prequels and sequels because they need to happen, not because they're earned at all.
Honestly, while it's kinda watchable as a "what if Luke went crazy" scenario, it's not really believable that he would act like he does in VIII.
To that point he's seen the most evil person in the galaxy turn back from the Dark Side and redeem himself first hand and he also knows that there is 100% life after death being able to commune with freaking ghosts.
I don't really buy that even a massacre of a Jedi temple would cause him to completely up and quit life and/or none of Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan would talk some sense into him until Yoda conveniently does in TLJ.
Especially Anakin, it's just not believable he wouldn't at some point have a 5 minute conversation with Anakin in like several years that there's always light even in the midst of the deepest darkness.
Both the prequel and sequel trilogies are failures in story telling, neither has a believable, satisfying story start to finish, the only Star Wars trilogy that actually has a story to tell and does it well is the OT. Things just happen in the prequels and sequels because they need to happen, not because they're earned at all.
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Nevermind that TLJ Luke is a great way to take the character than even Lucas had been strongly considering
Nevermind that TROS Luke isn't a character at all
TROS Luke's ghost interacts with the material world, including a strong display of force use.
that's just bullshit because it raises a WHOLE lotta questions
Nevermind that TROS Luke isn't a character at all
TROS Luke's ghost interacts with the material world, including a strong display of force use.
that's just bullshit because it raises a WHOLE lotta questions
I liked them both.
It showed maturity and wisdom, not a static 30+ year character that never grew or experienced anything.
It showed maturity and wisdom, not a static 30+ year character that never grew or experienced anything.
That's not new though, Yoda set the tree on fire in TLJ. In the Clone Wars cartoon Qui-Gon's ghost lifts Yoda into the air along with all the furniture in his meditation room.
The ghosts and their powers have never been clearly explained and don't make much sense.
He's just hovering like thatI mean...
he' trying to make Luke feel comfortable
I dont like the ghosts
why not try to have a more direct impact on events? They could actually use their ghosts to fight in some way, seems to me
I mean you might as well add Force Awakens to the poll since Luke basically had as much to do in that one as he did in TROS.
Uh no it's not, we got more information about the backstory of this trilogy than the OT AND PT. When it comes down to it. The historical baggage is exactly the reason we needed to see Luke as he was in TLJ. Rian understood that. You keep bringing up historical baggage as if they're obligated to write a flawless Luke Skywalker whose essentially Yoda with the body of Mark Hamill.
Luke had no idea that any of these events were happening. In his depression he cut himself off from the force. He had no idea where Ben had gone. He only had a vague idea that a conflict was happening, not the severity of the conflict. He decided the best course of action was for the jedi to not be involved at all. A rationalization, again, fueled by his own depression. He wasn't like Yoda or Obi-wan, waiting for some plucky young person to come along and solve all the things. As far as he was concerned, shit would work out.
Not in the old EU no.
You keep describing it as dark thoughts. How are these dark thoughts. This is what a force vision is like:
Why would Luke react rationally to an experience like the above?
It's almost like clinical depression causes people to make irrational decisions. 🤔 Luke didn't even know about Han leaving. He didn't know about anything happening. He was wallowing in his own misery, unable to deal with his own failure. In fact, no one even knew what had happened to Luke's temple until some time after the fact.
It absolutely is believable. Luke has reacted more negatively in the past to things way less visceral than a force vision.
What experiences. Luke outright failed in ESB. He didn't save his friends, failed to heed his master's warnings, and nearly got turned to the dark side as a result. In ROTJ, he starts out still absolutely susceptible to the dark side, and when it came down to it, despite all of his talk of not wanting to fight, he was still played into nearly killing Vader. Luke has never been presented as someone who was not vulnerable to falling or making major mistakes.
Luke cut himself off from the force. For years. Those same force ghosts wouldn't even show up when he begged them to after finding out that Ben lied.
Force ghosts have a tendency to not solve problems and it's not like they're on dial up.
It's like people can't understand Luke acting like a human
TLJ Luke is actually interesting and has an arc about accepting failure and your own weakness.
Compare Luke in TLJ and Han Solo in TFA, Han Solo was just himself. He felt like time was frozen and he just always stayed the same. It would be so much more interesting, if he may lived besides Leia, where she is an important politician and he is just bored and unhappy. Jumping on the first chance to proof himself and maybe saving his son. Instead he is just a smuggler again ... just older.
TLJ Luke did continue living and went to terrible life changing tragedy. This opens up the door for new stories. Also people being mad, that look lives like a hobo farmer, that was the parable to Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, which lived in a similar way to him. Maybe that is what broken Jedi do? The hobo teacher is also a cliché in many magical arts movies.
Compare Luke in TLJ and Han Solo in TFA, Han Solo was just himself. He felt like time was frozen and he just always stayed the same. It would be so much more interesting, if he may lived besides Leia, where she is an important politician and he is just bored and unhappy. Jumping on the first chance to proof himself and maybe saving his son. Instead he is just a smuggler again ... just older.
TLJ Luke did continue living and went to terrible life changing tragedy. This opens up the door for new stories. Also people being mad, that look lives like a hobo farmer, that was the parable to Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, which lived in a similar way to him. Maybe that is what broken Jedi do? The hobo teacher is also a cliché in many magical arts movies.
Yeah, I have a similar issue myself. The Last Jedi basically comes out and says "Force Ghosts never move on and become one with the Force". They even have a greatly expanded ability to affect the mortal world.
So where were they? They didn't think to show themselves to Ben and say "this is a bad idea" before he kills everyone or show themselves to Luke and encourage him to keep fighting? Not even Anakin got involved in anything that happened before or during the sequel trilogy?
The trilogy was so poorly planned out and it shows - a lot of other trilogies are made up as they go along, sure, but they still feel like one cohesive whole by the end. The sequel trilogy is a disjointed mess that doesn't even understand the rules it introduces let alone how to adequately give closure to legacy characters.
"Muh historical baggage dictates that Luke must handle with only the finest level of grace, he's a jedi master after all. He unlocked the "Got your shit together" skill on the jedi skill tree"
That's what it reads like tbh.
How does a force ghost talk to someone who completely cut himself off from the force? Those same force ghosts knew Order 66 would happen and let it happen anyway instead of warning anyone but Yoda. Who in turn, let it happen. The jedi religion deems that people must let things play out as they would. It's in that regard a flawed religion. One that sets unrealistic expectations for the people who're apart of the order.
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For many he is a hero first and a human second.
Which is funny, because that is, what Luke did in the end of TLJ. Making himself a symbol and giving up his human side (by literary dying) to spark hope to a new generation. You could say, that he created "A new hope".
I have zero problem with Luke in TROS as a character, it's a natural extension of his character from TLJ.
What sucks about his scene in TROS is Mark Hamill's phoned in line readings, the wig, and the bad ghost effects.
What sucks about his scene in TROS is Mark Hamill's phoned in line readings, the wig, and the bad ghost effects.
Right, because he cut himself off from the Force before a ghost Jedi could feel great loss of life and reach him.
Don't be daft. Nobody showed up to stop Ben killing everyone, nobody showed up to console Luke... It's just another part of the sequel trilogy that doesn't make any sense if you think too hard about it.
Read my edit.
I for one, cannot believe that the religion that let Order 66 happen, and that's ok with slavery as long as it doesn't affect the balance of the force, let more bad things happen. That's like, wow. I would never expect them to let something like this happen.
I like how's OP's clearly biased thread backfired on him.
Edit: I am going to say this again. People who specifically have problems actualizing what made Luke completely lose it and go into exile, just because he was once a hero, probably have not gone through serious hardships in life.
Edit: I am going to say this again. People who specifically have problems actualizing what made Luke completely lose it and go into exile, just because he was once a hero, probably have not gone through serious hardships in life.
That's actually him at his best too I think before the reshoot and without the wig.
I'm still baffled as to why they felt like they had to reshoot that scene.
I think the only major change was him telling Rey that Leia knew about her being a Palpatine, and the rewrite removed his lines about Anakin and balance.
So the reshoot resulted in one of the worst lines/reveals in the film? :|
OP
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By the way what was up with them hiding his right arm in all shots and him doing everything with his left hand? Did they seriously imply that Force ghosts of amputated Jedi stay amputated??