DC is pretending that black Wally West is the "cousin" of white Wally West. They were originally supposed to be the same guy, just made more diverse. But then there was fan backlash and they got cold feet.
Comic book writers are so bad at this.
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To promote diversity, should games have casts of new, diverse characters or change old ones to be more diverse?
- Thread starter Twenty5Thousand
- Start date
DC is pretending that black Wally West is the "cousin" of white Wally West. They were originally supposed to be the same guy, just made more diverse. But then there was fan backlash and they got cold feet.
Comic book writers are so bad at this.
New stories with new characters. That way, they can be iconic in their own right instead always being secondary.
This. If anyone here thinks we can get, for example, a black female Mario is out of their minds.
Both, but new characters are better. With legacy heroes the companies always return to the status quo.
Oh ok, I went into the thread thinking "change old ones" meant retconning them, which I'd disagree with in most cases. Introducing new characters to take up the mantle is more natural and gives them more of a character. Riri Williams and Jane Foster are both pretty different to Tony Stark and Thor Odinson, after all.
This is why I'd be more than fine with a female or dark skinned Link, it's part of the canon that it's reincarnation of the hero's spirit, but rebooting, say, Mario as black would just seem kinda lazy. Though I'm fine with more minor characters getting changes, like Daisy getting a darker skin tone just makes sense.
Oh also in terms of LGBT diversity, I think that's easier to pull off with legacy characters. It'd be nice to finally break from allusions and teases and get actual confirmation for characters like FE's Ike and Tales' Sorey.
This is why I'd be more than fine with a female or dark skinned Link, it's part of the canon that it's reincarnation of the hero's spirit, but rebooting, say, Mario as black would just seem kinda lazy. Though I'm fine with more minor characters getting changes, like Daisy getting a darker skin tone just makes sense.
Oh also in terms of LGBT diversity, I think that's easier to pull off with legacy characters. It'd be nice to finally break from allusions and teases and get actual confirmation for characters like FE's Ike and Tales' Sorey.
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While I agree that writing new characters is ideal, when talking about established IPs they confer a slew of financial and marketing benefits that a new character and more importantly a new superhero does not have. The business side of this equation is often neglected in the analysis. So, IMO both is the right approach.
Changing old ones too much I see resulting in a handful of "diversity" characters just being in the shadow of their white/male/straight originals that people will more often than not like better by nature of them being the original. That's just kind of weird.
Both.
For example, Link may as well be a different character game to game, so why couldn't he be female or a PoC?
For example, Link may as well be a different character game to game, so why couldn't he be female or a PoC?
Never been a fan of taking existing characters and changing them into something else. Would rather have new characters that can stand on their own without living in the shadow of the 'real' Thor, Iron Man, etc.
People talk about Link being interchangeable, but to me he isn't. Link is Link. There's a certain type of character I expect him to be and if that's changed then he just ain't Link anymore and I'm not interested.
People talk about Link being interchangeable, but to me he isn't. Link is Link. There's a certain type of character I expect him to be and if that's changed then he just ain't Link anymore and I'm not interested.
Still bummed out that Ashe is not a black woman in Overwatch, as originally intended.
I rather they don't mess with whatever they've done, and create new characters that serve the same purpose in terms of gameplay, and add their own story.
e.g. Nadine and Chloe in Uncharted replacing Nathan and Sam.
Don't want any color swaps like its a fighting game lol.
I rather they don't mess with whatever they've done, and create new characters that serve the same purpose in terms of gameplay, and add their own story.
e.g. Nadine and Chloe in Uncharted replacing Nathan and Sam.
Don't want any color swaps like its a fighting game lol.
I don't even think the shitstorm and hatred are the problem. I don't like it when devs/writers cave to gamergate and comicsgate.
The problem is money. When sales decrease (they usually do in comic book world, because fan outrage goes viral quickly), they instantly get cold feet and undo the diversity, which is even worse than not being diverse in the first place. It's like they're telling their diverse fans that they never really cared.
I've never liked the idea of changing defined characters, either by race or gender.
However I'm all up to have new diverse characters, specially on main roles, but of course on secondary roles. So instead of having a Tomb Raider with Lara Croft we have a new charcter being her friend/mentee/val, etc. You can same the same for any other established series Zelda, Metal Gear, God of War, etc.
Just have a logical explanation why the established main character is not on the new entry.
However I'm all up to have new diverse characters, specially on main roles, but of course on secondary roles. So instead of having a Tomb Raider with Lara Croft we have a new charcter being her friend/mentee/val, etc. You can same the same for any other established series Zelda, Metal Gear, God of War, etc.
Just have a logical explanation why the established main character is not on the new entry.
Always new for me. I'm a black dude and I HATE it when people just give my people hand-me-down characters and color their skin black.
I want someone who that is a part of their identity from the core and from the jump.
That's just me.
I want someone who that is a part of their identity from the core and from the jump.
That's just me.
For those saying only new characters, are you okay with them retiring old characters or not doing games in old IPs so that these new ones can exist? There's a limit to resources so it's not like they can do both, one will lose out and if it's means you can't touch the popular and powerful old IPs it's going to mean that women, LGBT and PoC will not get their fair share of main characters, it will still be dominated by the white straight men.
You shouldn't create diverse characters for the sake of diversity, you should hire diverse writers, directors, actors and designers. Diversity will then seep into a work naturally. There wouldn't be a need to make threads like this if companies hired more diversely in the first place.
I really can't stand the Marvel comics approach but mainly because I think it's lazy.
Yeah you could change Mario's skin to brown and it would be the exact same game. But honestly I feel like it would feel like a token effort. If you really care about diversity make more original characters.
Don't just pallet swap and then expect us to give you applause.
Yeah you could change Mario's skin to brown and it would be the exact same game. But honestly I feel like it would feel like a token effort. If you really care about diversity make more original characters.
Don't just pallet swap and then expect us to give you applause.
NEW characters
I feel very strongly about this. Like the two comix examples you gave, those are new different characters so that's fine. What I hate is for example the Fantastic Four movie with Johnny Storm, that was fucking ridiculous and stupid as fuck.
If they needed to meet a racial quota in that movie, they could have come up with a story about Johnny being dead, so the team needed to get a new 4th member who happened to be black. That would have been totally fine and no problem. But to actually make Johnny black, who in comix is the biological brother of Sue, is just all kinds of dumb.
I would be just as pissed if Luke Cage was changed to a different race actor in the TV show. Because I've been reading Luke in comix since the 1980s and he's black. Or Storm in the X-Men movies. Do NOT change existing longtime characters' race.
If a product needs racial diversity, just make new characters and that's cool.
I feel very strongly about this. Like the two comix examples you gave, those are new different characters so that's fine. What I hate is for example the Fantastic Four movie with Johnny Storm, that was fucking ridiculous and stupid as fuck.
If they needed to meet a racial quota in that movie, they could have come up with a story about Johnny being dead, so the team needed to get a new 4th member who happened to be black. That would have been totally fine and no problem. But to actually make Johnny black, who in comix is the biological brother of Sue, is just all kinds of dumb.
I would be just as pissed if Luke Cage was changed to a different race actor in the TV show. Because I've been reading Luke in comix since the 1980s and he's black. Or Storm in the X-Men movies. Do NOT change existing longtime characters' race.
If a product needs racial diversity, just make new characters and that's cool.
I like this, like Uncharted giving Chloe and Nadine their own game.
No it isn't, you're just being thick on purpose. If RE2make had changed Leon or Claire to any other gender/race than they already were, it would have felt insanely unnatural, because they're established characters with established identities. It already feels unnatural that the new RE games are so heavily changing Chris, Leon, and Claire's facial appearance. There was an entire thread last week about Chris' appearance, with a lot of people stating that they hated the new look. When existing character change appearance, especially if they change an entire gender or race identity, it feels weird.
That said, in the case of something like a reboot, I'm all for it. If Capcom rebooted RE entirely and started from the ground up, deciding to make Jill Black, or Chris Asian, I wouldn't care one bit.
It would, however, spark a shit storm that would just lead to tons of stupid racist bullshit online, and I'm of the opinion they're better off avoiding that by creating new characters. While I personally don't care about rebooting characters with wildly different identities, I don't think a company's stand against online trolls ever amounts to anything meaningful, and if it means fostering racist bullshit online, they might be better served by just avoiding it and, as Baby Bird said earlier in the thread, bring diverse characters that already exist to the forefront. Or introduce new ones because rehashing the same characters over and over gets tiresome.
I'd also fully support changing characters that are essentially different iterations each game anyway. Imagine a new Zelda game inspired by African folklore with a Black Link. That sounds kinda rad, actually. Would probably still piss off a lot of idiots, though.
New characters, changing existing characters almost always backfires and tends to be reverted because of customer pushback.
I much prefer making new characters for this approach.
Something about slotting someone in as the NEW version of an existing character just feels kinda half arsed, or lacks confidence in the approach.
Something about slotting someone in as the NEW version of an existing character just feels kinda half arsed, or lacks confidence in the approach.
Introduce new characters, always. Though a black Mario sounds really cool tbh..., anyway, new characters it is!
Changing established characters sucks. Create badass new characters that can stand on their own.
The Miles Morales route is my favorite because it allows for cool crossover opportunities with the classic characters, or simultaneous but separate stories where people can enjoy the characters they know, and the new ones that put a twist on familiar material.
Look at how Into The Spider-Verse, and to a lesser degree the Spider-Man game, handled this. It works great when it's done right. You can have different iterations of the same character without throwing the original version in the garbage.
Nostalgia is powerful and you can't change the audience's perception of a familiar character overnight.
Look at how Into The Spider-Verse, and to a lesser degree the Spider-Man game, handled this. It works great when it's done right. You can have different iterations of the same character without throwing the original version in the garbage.
Nostalgia is powerful and you can't change the audience's perception of a familiar character overnight.
Also this though. Everyone should be gay af.
If its still supposed to be the same character, its unnatural. I like the DCAU because John Stewart is way better as a character than bland whitebread, but they didnt have to simply change the race of the original green lantern to bring John into the fold. I like that.
If a franchise wants characters for the sake of diversity, new is better...similar to Miles Morales i guess? Or Gwen as SpiderGwen. She's a female spiderwoman who i think is better in a lot of ways, but she isnt supposed to simply take the place of Peter and carves out her own self properly.
Because it is unnatural if your arguing for changing races of characters just to be more diverse. Make diverse new characters instead of changing old ones i guess is my answer.
Agreed.
And while making entirely new characters would be ideal, it is really hard to create a new one that sticks.
I wish we were less obsessed with getting minority characters into established mega franchises than by promoting actual minority-created/owned mega franchises.
Like having black people in Marvel is cool and all. But I want to see black folks answer to Marvel. Where's the black Marvel?
Like having black people in Marvel is cool and all. But I want to see black folks answer to Marvel. Where's the black Marvel?
Diversity of characters will come as a natural byproduct of diversity of the creators. That should be the main focus. Bigger talent pool means better talent.
I didn't realize I wanted this, until now.
More on-topic - Making new characters/lore is better, if more difficult. I'm all for changing gender/race/whatever of past characters as well, if it makes sense. Zelda/Link are so ambiguous and each game is so far apart from the others that in a lot of ways making a change like that would make sense. Even if we look past genders, in more established games, one could sort of write in explainable "changes" or new information to characters that we didn't know before. For example, before the DLC for TLoU, we didn't know that Ellie was a lesbian (or perhaps bi? Someone correct me if I'm wrong). But, that was added in to expand on the character, so to us it was new information that made the cast more diverse. In a lot of games that could easily be done because many characters have nothing mentioned in regards to their past romances (also see: Soldier 76 and Tracer from Overwatch).
I'll always take new characters over gender or race swapping an old one. It feels like such a lazy cop out.
I'm not totally a fan of established characters having their race and gender change. Someone taking up the mantle of that character (like in the OP) is an entirely different matter and I tend to like these (when done right).
Preferably though new characters are always better, doing the above is just trying to cash in on an established brand and will always be compared to the character(s) that came before and because they either grew up on those characters or were longer established (or a host of other reasons) they rarely live up to the original.
Preferably though new characters are always better, doing the above is just trying to cash in on an established brand and will always be compared to the character(s) that came before and because they either grew up on those characters or were longer established (or a host of other reasons) they rarely live up to the original.
I really despise when established chracters are changed just for the sake of diversity(spiderman homecoming was the worst). Just create something new and remove established characters that are considered offensive