To those of you who like shmups but dislike bullet hell... why?

[ScOULaris]

I've recently gotten more into the shmup genre, and in delving into online discussions surrounding shmups I've noticed numerous instances where people who are fans of the genre vehemently dislike games that fall into the bullet hell subgenre.

As someone who is just not really getting into these types of games, I'd like to understand where people who feel that way are coming from. In my eyes, bullet hell shooters (or manic shooters) are simply an evolution of the classic shmup. They are an amplified, flashier, and more intense iteration on the types of shooters that were popular for decades prior to Cave's world-class shooters and the Japanese indie shmup scene. I struggle to understand why anyone would like classic shmups but not bullet hell is essentially what I'm saying.

And before someone says, "They're too hard," I'd like to counter that sentiment. Bullet hell shooters are far more forgiving than classic shmups in terms of bullet speed and hitbox leniency. They are designed to look impossible while making the player feel like a badass for dodging mesmerizing patterns of screen-filling enemy fire. Classic shmups may have fewer bullets heading your way, but they tend to be much faster and harder to react to.

I mean, just look at this. It's awesome:

 

[Alvis]

"To those of you who like plattformers but dislike Kaizo Mario... why?"

bullet hell games are cool af tho

 

[Teeth]

Because bullet hell trends towards strategy and memorization while classic shmups trend more towards reactivity.

 

[low-G]

"To those of you who like plattformers but dislike Kaizo Mario... why?"

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This.

But for me I also like space ships / jet shooters. Raiden Fighters series, R-Type, Gradius, Solar Striker, etc etc. I hate all this flying girl and bug stuff.

 

[Fredrik]

Because they're more like labyrinth games with walls that kills you than shmups.

 

[Radishhead]

They're so difficult they're not even fun.

 

[Dphex]

i do like both immensely but many (especially newer) bullet hells are less of a shooter and more of a maze

They're so difficult they're not even fun.

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they do look much more difficult than many of them really are. it is mostly about memorization and replaying sections till you exactly know the sequence.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I feel like I don't own a stick precise enough.

 

[deftones r cool]

Because bullet hell trends towards strategy and memorization while classic shmups trend more towards reactivity.

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[Khrol]

Ain't nobody got time for all that trial and error

 

[The Riot Inside]

Am I impressed at the people who can navigate this maze of instant death? Sure. But I don't really care to learn patterns and I don't find the flashy, overwhelming aesthetic particularly pleasing. It just looks like visual noise to me.

 

[Unicorn]

One is intrinsically more rigid, relying on precise and prescribed play where the other is more casual and is open to more variability in user input?

 

[Nanashrew]

Nah, they're very hard and still require a high level of skill. The only bullet hell game I've ever beaten was Touhou Imperishable Night on easy mode route B. My skill with bullet hell has never really improved.

 

[cowbanana]

I like shooting stuff more than I enjoy dodging (too many) bullets.

I like Euro-style shmups and stuff like Hellfire, Truxton, R-Type, Thundercade and similar games. Horizontal, vertical... it doesn't matter.

Extreme bullet hell is not my cup of tea though.

 

[Dogui]

Because i suck at bullet hell and training to git gud is not a thing i pretend to do.

 

[RedMercury]

Too much shit on the screen at once

 

[Gnorman]

I'm no schmup expert but I do like having a few in my library to play now and again. Games like Darius, Raiden, Salamander etc. Bullet hell games just don't scratch the same itch for me, it's almost a different genre. Also having a hitbox that's a tiny fraction of the sprite just seems like terrible game design to me.

 

[breadtruck]

Give me full-time invincibility and Id like bullet hell just fine.

 

[RedMercury]

Give me full-time invincibility and Id like bullet hell just fine.

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At least a health bar

 

[Stuart Gipp]

Because I like shmups to have terrain. (Hugs Gradius)

 

[Deleted member 21996]

They're so difficult they're not even fun.

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I'd counter that in many ways they're easier. As OP points out, hit boxes are a lot smaller and bullets travel waay slower. It impresses onlookers more when you pull off crazy feats of majestic weaving through bullet curtains, but a game like Raiden 1 for example feels far more brutal. Even lone helis, tanks or boats pose a major threat with a single speeding bullet.

 

[Garrod Ran]

they're different genres

 

[Fredrik]

Truxton

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Truxton is awesome, one of my favorites, Raiden is another one, the first one without the purple snake weapon that made the enemy encounters too easy. I started playing IO on The C64 just recently, it's old and super simplistic, as far as you can come from bullet hell shooters, and awesome.

 

[Undeniablybiased]

Never wanted to try because they look boring. Do exactly this one difficult thing and nothing else? And it'll probably take a bunch of tries to even do that one thing? Yeah it looks cool when people are good at it, but so do rhythm games and I also don't like those very much.

 

[Gnorman]

Truxton is awesome, one of my favorites, Raiden is another one, the first one without the purple snake weapon that made the enemy encounters too easy. I started playing IO on The C64 just recently, it's old and super simplistic, as far as you can come from bullet hell shooters, and awesome.

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I loved IO back in the day.

 

[DanteMenethil]

It moves all the focus into player positioning. You don't care where and how you shoot.

 

[Cdammen]

Ain't nobody got time for all that trial and error

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But so many people play Souls games :)

 

[JeffDunhamsPeanut]

replaying sections till you exactly know the sequence

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That's the issue here. I DON'T want a game that requires me to memorise part of the game so I do it the only way correct.

 

[Why would you do that?]

I don't hate the bullet ones, but what I love most about old school shooters is that they have memorable levels and/or nice level design. Gradius and Parodius games, for example, have many incredible levels in various settings. And they have so many different types of hazards, too, e.g. ones where you go hyper fast through winding tunnels and you can't touch the walls, ones where a huge ship is constantly flying next to you that you need to navigate around as it shoots you, or levels where you're in a giant space station that spins and rotates as you dodge hazards and pouring green goop (Gradius V stage 4).

But the bullet ones focus more on the enemies and their bullets than the level itself. The fun comes from the enemies, their patterns, and their bullets, and not so much the levels, which might as well be a black background since they're generally non-existent. And that's more boring for me.

 

[Taco_Human]

Anything easy out on steam? I bought R Type and managed to beat the first level without continuing, but that';s about it so far.

 

[DanteMenethil]

But so many people play Souls games :)

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Souls you'll try a boss 1-6 times and you'll get him. Bullet hells are about practicing your muscle memory for dozens of hours on the same stage

 

[Deleted member 46489]

They are two different experiences. The engaging part in most shmups for me is using cool and varied weapons, and making sure no enemies escape. The engaging part of bullet hell games is avoiding bullets.

Also, you're really underestimating bullet hell difficulty. The good games in the genre can get unbelievably hard very quickly.

 

[Dust]

"Just dodge the bullets bro. Just move to the left."

 

[Dezzy]

Because I like shmups to have terrain. (Hugs Gradius)

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Same here. I like having environmental and navigational challenges rather than just weaving through bullet patterns. I also prefer horizontal scrolling.

 

[steveovig]

I'm not too good at them. I've been playing Psyvariar lately and enjoying it though

 

[Hieroph]

Bullet hell games aren't shmups. They're dodge 'em ups, or domps.

 

[KujoJosuke]

Bullet hell is still one of my fav names for a genre/subgenre

 

[DrScissorsMD]

Not to be a Debby downer but that video you posted looks terrible to me. There's hardly any point in shooting as the guy isn't really aiming, so much as he's just holding the button down and then guiding his character through the death maze which often is just his character sitting in specific spots for seconds at a time. Does not look fun to me at all. But as others have said, they're wildly different genres. The similarity ends at "they both involve shooting".

 

[Aeron]

Just because you're into anal porn doesn't mean you're also into Brazilian fart porn.

 

[KDR_11k]

The main thing I noticed when playing R-Type Final after a steady diet of bullet hell was that my eyes felt more relaxed. In a bullet hell your hitbox is like 3 pixels wide which means that in dense patterns you're focusing on a tiny, tiny part of the screen while a larger hitbox along with appropriately spaced patterns means you can look at a wider area.

Plus bullet hells always have tightly prescribed offensive power, you shoot a steady stream of widespread but really, really weak attacks everywhere and upgrades are very limited. Some don't let you get more firepower at all. So your attacks feel weak and it feels like the length of the boss fight is entirely prescribed by the dev, not by your offensive abilities.

Also I've noticed that I like more complex player ships, not just "hold shoot, maybe hold slow when fighting bosses and press bomb when you need to clear the screen". Stuff like the versatility of the force pod or the different drone formations and attack styles of the Murasame in DBCS. Not complex scoring but complex tactical options.

BTW, the claim about classic shmups being more reactive than strategy or memorization seems pretty false to me, especially R-Type is very much about memorization and deciding a strategy for dealing with the script of the level.

 

[Xythantiops]

Don't immediately count yourself out of that sub genre just because you think the bullet hell stg genre looks too difficult. A good portion of them are much more accessible then you think as others have already stated in this thread. You'd be surprised how quickly you'll adapt to it after spending a little bit of time with it.

Anything easy out on steam? I bought R Type and managed to beat the first level without continuing, but that';s about it so far.

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If you're looking for an accessible bullet hell game then give Crimzon Clover a shot.

 

[Xero grimlock]

like others have said I dislike games that rely on memorization. it's why I prefer the x series to regular mega man. also bullet shells become about dodging not fighting and shooting enemies, so completely different feel.

 

[Hoa]

Because bullet hell trends towards strategy and memorization while classic shmups trend more towards reactivity.

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That's not true at all though lol. Do ya'll try to go for 1ccs or loops on these classics?

It's game dependent but yea try playing something like Same Same Same by just reacting. Whether is bullet hell or manic every game can have the balance more torwards one way or the other.

 

[Governergrimm]

I'm older and my skills aren't up to snuff. I also don't feel like dedicating that much time to a single game. Same reason I don't get involved in MP that require map memorization etc ..

 

[ghibli99]

They're fun, but mastery requires a level of time investment that I just don't have anymore.

 

[SoH]

If the whole "it's only muscle memory" thing were true the top 10 leaderboard replays would be near duplicates rather than wildly different like they are. Even back to back games by the same high level player has loads of variation and situational response.

Rhythm games are muscle memory where the only variation is making mistakes from a perfect score.

 

[Hoa]

Rhythm games are muscle memory where the only variation is making mistakes from a perfect score.

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Careful, it depends on the game. In Beatmania IIDX a lot of players play with random on, so the notes are different every run. See how the notes are different for both players in this vid:

 

[SoH]

Careful, it depends on the game. In Beatmania IIDX a lot of players play with random on, so the notes are different every run.

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Fair. I wrote Guitar Hero first and decided a genre comparison is better. There will naturally be examples that don't apply. Rock Band has the whole freestyle/solo thing for certain blocks, for example.

 

[Deleted member 15125]

If you're trying convince people that the bullet hell genre gets way too much unwarranted flack and the difficulty of them is overblown, why would you post a video of one of them on Ultra Mode?

 

[arcadepc]

Bullet hell games aren't shmups. They're dodge 'em ups, or domps.

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I prefer cute 'em ups