I love the first idea for a solution is to think of women as a commodity.
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Too Many Men: What happens when women are outnumbered on a continental scale (WaPo)
- Thread starter Kirblar
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I love the first idea for a solution is to think of women as a commodity.
These are all very relevant. In this era of increasingly targeted messaging, subculture manipulations & online-mob mentality, demographics that are skewed in this way can be weaponised and be incredibly harmful. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see these linked to an increase in hardcore right wing views regionally like we are seeing in other territories. It could also result in aggressive pushback against cultural reforms, eg against rights and protections for women.
While its true that strong adherence to patriarchal values led to a lot of this and they are paying for it, its worth noting that there are going to be problems that expand to other countries that didn't make the decisions China & India did.
I strongly encourage everyone to read the full article. It's depressing, but very eye-opening.
There was also an interesting section about Bollywood actually influencing and contributing to street harassment and rape culture in India. Media representation matters after all.
This is a serious that is currently causing untold amounts of suffering beyond "just some dudes being lonely", and being glad about that is pretty mind-blowing. I'm sure you didn't mean to say you were glad to see all this suffering, but you should consider this aspect.
Edit: it appears you were being sarcastic? My apologies then. Disregard the above.
There was also an interesting section about Bollywood actually influencing and contributing to street harassment and rape culture in India. Media representation matters after all.
You know it won't be. These societies are heavily patriarchal and rife with toxic masculinity and strict gender roles. Being one of several husbands to a single woman would be considered incredibly emasculating and undesirable for them.
You're... glad? No, this is not okay. Read the article. This is a real societal problem that affects millions of women and children, not just the men, including in other countries. Read the parts about how it fuels human trafficking and the commoditization of girls and women to insane and horrible degrees.
This is a serious that is currently causing untold amounts of suffering beyond "just some dudes being lonely", and being glad about that is pretty mind-blowing. I'm sure you didn't mean to say you were glad to see all this suffering, but you should consider this aspect.
Edit: it appears you were being sarcastic? My apologies then. Disregard the above.
because men having sex and love is their human right... women are here only for men.
The fall out to other countries is terrible and the escaltion of rape and sexual harrassment and rape culture and the apologetic society that goes with it are going to damage so many more women and men. Its all super depressing.
I feel like the only real solution is to leave the country for another and find a wife the old-fashioned way, but that solution is definitely not available for the majority. But I don't know what the solution to this problem can be other than waiting a few generations for the genders to equalize again due to the lack of births.
The comment was a bit sarcastic, yeah. :P
It's just interesting how formal or informal polygyny has been considered a given in so many societies, but in a situation where polyandry might be a solution, it's probably not even thought of.
If that was the intent, then I'd agree with it. I do see men get less emotional support, because it's not seen as manly to *need* support in the first place.
That'd need to change.
Ironically you're arguing against the very tools that allow us to analyze broad social problems. The way education, especially at the primary level, is set up doesn't seem to pedagogically work as well for boys as for girls. The doesn't mean we have to change how girls are educated, but it is indicative of a problem. Ignoring a problem because of who it affects seems rather foolish to me.
Grade school has been biased against boys for a long time in methods of teaching, school rules, limiting recess and other physical activities, etc.. This is where a bias matters most as we are talking about children, how they are treated here defines them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html
You talk as if the opposite situation happened it wouldn't be a massive problem that women would be up in arms about.
if i said "buy women from abroad and force them to marry chinese men" then you might have a point
this is another "literally just read the words as they are and don't assume implications that aren't there" type of situation
I wouldnt compare what is happening in india and china and their surrounding countries to whats happening in american colleges.
The situation is very sad but i think the increased rape and sexual harrassment, the eugenics of aborting women, and the commodifying of poor women is worse problem and should have a much much larger focus of the article compared to what it was. They barely humanized the subject, falling mostly on the stats and general stories of women being rapes and harrassed and didnt dive into how they are trying to fight against those problems instead.
"Wich country has an excess of women?" is a bad starting point, regardless of what was to follow.
not really since i'm following the OP's usage of "excess of men"
Not to mention homesexuality is a crime in India and heavily criticized in China.
Observing a demographic issue vs. spitballing a solution.
Even if a country has more women than men, it's gross to think they should be seen as a solution to this.
But you also mentionned robowomen, so you were probably not entirely serious.
That quote about how difficult it is for single guys in rural areas to even socialize in their hometown rings pretty true as a rural American, tbh.
There are definitely some but that's a conversation for another day lol.
I don't care for being macho and am not trying to trivialize male problems. The poster I quoted had grievances about women programs/initiatives in school and said the education system fucks men over. I could be totally wrong and can't tell a person's tone from just text but this seemed slightly MRA'ish, so I posted accordingly. There's nothing out there institutionally that's actively fucking men over gender-wise.
The only students I have sympathy for are poor students. Other than that, middle class and up, what you put in to your education is what you get. Sit, hear a lecture, study, take test. Sounds fair for mostly everyone.
I am only commenting on the US/West and am open to reading the links others have posted as to why boys are goofin'. But we can address the problem without bleeding over into male victimhood territory, tis all.
Please explain to me how it's gross. You're right that I wasn't entirely serious but I have a feeling you and the other poster there are gravely misinterpreting what I said as some sort of call for a mass human trafficking program.
To clarify I was referring to loosening up migration laws to address a specific population issue, not unlike how it might be suggested that allowing greater migration from the developing world is a solution to the issue of ageing populations in the developed world.
OP
OP
That's just it, we're finding that it's not fair. Just like we've found in other environments where things inadvertently disadvantage women. (The google situation w/ asking for people to submit themselves for promotion vs relying on people to do it themselves.)
And it's not just an equality thing, this creates problems down the line for colleges where standards for men will get lowered because they want to avoid letting the gender ratio get too imbalanced.
Women are human being who live their lives as they see fit, and aren't waiting for looser regulations to find partners in other countries. Also, single women are not a problem that needs to be solved.
That was a depressing read.
*white men**
**or the majority race of men depending on the country.
Perhaps, but I feel that it's only going to become more common, especially as technology further removes us from real interaction.
And unfortunately, it will probably end up being a solution for the issue since it will be seen as placating these men, and perhaps mitigate them from lashing out.
*white men**
**or the majority race of men depending on the country.
Perhaps, but I feel that it's only going to become more common, especially as technology further removes us from real interaction.
And unfortunately, it will probably end up being a solution for the issue since it will be seen as placating these men, and perhaps mitigate them from lashing out.
At no point have I implied a lack of individual agency. Read what I wrote, not what you think it implies, literally what it says. "offering fast-track visas for women", if I offer you a fast-track visa right now to Sweden are you obliged to take it?
I think both me and the other poster both see altrusitic reasoning and what we believe the real world implications would be, more trafficking of women or abuse of poor women of the loosened immigration.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing OP, and for a good summary. It sounds really crazy. Especially the situation with bride trafficking seems to lead to a lot of abuse. There is a heartbreaking story there about a woman who was forced to leave her daughter behind to escape her abusive husband.
Understandable, but do not assume that I am advocating for that outcome.
I've been following this with great fascination the last couple of years. The Economist's 1843 did an article in the latest issue about the difficulties educated women face when trying to date a man. In China, if you're a successful woman, play stupid and learn to admire your man and he'll marry you.
It's endlessly fascinating following there articles and stories. It's very scary. All of these angry young men trying to control women. In my book there is not a whole lot separating MS-13, ISIS, alt-right, and other similar groups when it comes to their fundamental relation to women.
The pure hatred these cultures have for women. From Shinto banning women from sumo wrestling to Indian courts nullifying marriages between Muslim men and Hindu women. To the literal slaughter of millions of unborn girls. I look at it and see a reflection of our own western culture of dickpics and constant harassment of women (and all the guys who insist on calling them "females" as if we were discussing biology.)
It's endlessly fascinating following there articles and stories. It's very scary. All of these angry young men trying to control women. In my book there is not a whole lot separating MS-13, ISIS, alt-right, and other similar groups when it comes to their fundamental relation to women.
The pure hatred these cultures have for women. From Shinto banning women from sumo wrestling to Indian courts nullifying marriages between Muslim men and Hindu women. To the literal slaughter of millions of unborn girls. I look at it and see a reflection of our own western culture of dickpics and constant harassment of women (and all the guys who insist on calling them "females" as if we were discussing biology.)
Overly naive and loose rules for work visas here in Sweden during the last decade have led to wide-scale trafficking of people into really poor employment conditions and prostitution. It's actually been in the news this week in Sweden. Also, you should read the Importing a bride section of the article. People have already thought what you were thinking, and it has led to a lot of abuse.
Yeah, that was so damn awful. :( The consequences on the individual men are bad enough, but when you consider what happens to individual women, being treated like commodities, repeatedly raped and beaten, etc. It's just horribly depressing.
Or parties celebrating the birth of babies happening only when it's a boy (when it's a girl it's so rare to have this party that it "makes the news" apparently). Girl and women just don't have the same importance as male lives. It's horrible.
Can you not
You sure like to make assumptions about this guy's morality scale.
Yes wherever large patterns of migration exist there is opportunity for large-scale exploitation and abuse to occur. Solution is protective measures to ensure safe passage and offering migrants the same human rights as citizens, not cutting off visa programs entirely.
You tried to solve this like a math problem, forgetting you are talking about human beings.
It feels like there's whole a lot of projection of white patriarchy on Indian/Chinese patriarchy. There's also a bit of an intersection of issues with Asian males in the US as well because about 50% of Asian women marry out in the states.
Either way, arranged marriages by a matchmaker aren't outside the norm in these cultures and Asian Male interracial marriages are becoming more common especially since China has been expanding it's sphere of influence in different parts of the world. Not to mention that these men in those places are more open to dating non-Chinese. The biggest issue is with those men without the means for matchmaking services or education to improve their situation.
Either way, arranged marriages by a matchmaker aren't outside the norm in these cultures and Asian Male interracial marriages are becoming more common especially since China has been expanding it's sphere of influence in different parts of the world. Not to mention that these men in those places are more open to dating non-Chinese. The biggest issue is with those men without the means for matchmaking services or education to improve their situation.
So, Sweden has similar issues in certain age groups, but for entirely different reasons:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35444173
We will have massive amounts of young Afghani men who already have a hard time integrating into society, with virtually zero chance of finding a spouse not because of disinterest from women, but because there aren't enough potential partners.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35444173
We will have massive amounts of young Afghani men who already have a hard time integrating into society, with virtually zero chance of finding a spouse not because of disinterest from women, but because there aren't enough potential partners.
I wonder if part of it is that men know that doing worse at school doesn't actually result in them doing worse financially than the women in their cohorts who have the next level of educational attainment.
Statistically speaking, for the current generation? Boys are getting fucked over. Largely by the weird, outdated expectation millennia of patriarchy have set onto them, which no longer work in a world where the sexes have similar opportunities, even if not equal.
Unless you want to start some weird diatribe about how boys are dumber than girls, which would be exactly as stupid as it sounds.
Is there some body of actors largely concerned with keeping boys at their place? No, not at all.
Is the expectation that boys need less support than girls fucking them over? Yeah. Data at hand.
You're reading things in my posts that simply aren't there, and this discussion is going nowhere as a consequence.
The severe tightening of rules for family reunification after the migration panic a few years ago was a huge policy mistake. I hope that panic dies down after the election so that mistake can be reversed
While I agree that the way boys struggle in school and life in general is worrysome and something that should be talked about more, I can't help but think that NY Times article is kind of laughable and actually pretty damn sexist.
Apparently a 55/45 imbalance is behind:
- Burlington being referred as "Girlington"
- Six provocatively clad women or more hovering around one or two guys is a common sight
- Ashley Crisostomo not being able to find any potential dates in her whole school
- Women being forced into "ladies' nights" because there are no men to hang out with
- Women letting cheating slide
- Men not talking with women after a one night stand
I'm sorry but that's absolute nonsense.
I also appreciate the experts at the end pushing sexist stereotpes about men only wanting sex. Just look at this garbage:
"When men have the social power, they create a man's ideal of relationships," he said. Translation: more partners, more sex. Commitment? A good first step would be his returning a woman's Facebook message.
Apparently men's ideal relationships do not include love or care. Men are simple creatures who only want to fuck, while women are delicate beings who are tricked into sex and one night stands when they want romantic relationships.
I particularly like the girl complaining about less than half of men being dateable and how unfair it is for women that they suck so bad. And this one is a gem:
Oh, no! Men are not buying women drinks in an effort to have sex with them! This is an absolute catastrophe!
I'm just saying the way you framed women as a solution is fucked. And I do realize that you aren't implying women would be forced to do this. Framing this as a logistical problem and women as the solution is the part find fucked.
I'd say that's fundamentally down to human biology. Polyandry makes no sense from a biological propagation standpoint. Polygyny does, and it was reinforced by certain societies.
I see your point, but I also think you're underestimating how much a gender imbalance can affect things. I mean on paper the gender ratio for China doesn't seem crazy high, which is why it's helpful the Washington Post article puts it into stark population terms.
Dating is one of those weird places where patriarchal norms gave women more power in the relationship, and gender imbalances eroding those along with other social shifts doesn't seem too novel a premise.
It's not really about no one being smart enough to think about it yet. It really comes down more to the nature of men and all that stuff that goes with it.