As much as I liked my time with Torna. I still prefer the main game because I liked the grander sense of adventure. If Torna had like one or two maps then it would be perfect. I can understand that the other Xenoblades can be a little long but I wouldn't mind an extra 10 hours with more areas to explore. It also didn't help that I found the Torna cast slightly weaker than XC2's cast.
Really I still loved Torna but the main game is the main game for a reason. Hopefully the next game can figure a good compromise between Torna and standard Xenoblade titles. There are some things I loved in Torna like the community system... outside of it being required to beat the game.
There are things that you're missing, but it's mostly the very end of the game (the scenes after the final boss) that verge into being incomprehensible without knowledge of the main game. Luckily, the rest of the story is largely standalone as you've said.
I just can't do that with games anymore. It's so rare now for a game to really remain fascinating after around 40 hours. I'm not saying it doesn't happen on occasion, but it's increasingly rare. The difficulty here is creating mechanics and then evolving them or having a writer that's actually competent (and good writers are like lightning in a bottle now - the writing in video games has become just awful lately - I really can't point to a modern RPG that I remember for its writing).
That's kind of why I gave up on Octopath after 35 some-odd hours. I felt like outside of getting the advance jobs, just mixing up the core 8 wasn't enough, since none of the combos would yield unique abilities/skills or a new job type. It was strange having to find each one to unlock it, and I hated how idle party members didn't level up with your actives, etc. I also couldn't believe how poor the writing was in some cases, and I just got tired of the core non-battle mechanics. Everything I was reading said that things wouldn't really change from that point forward, so I was left feeling like I'd seen pretty much what the game had to offer. Not to say that I won't dabble with it here and there again in the future, but it definitely lost me and prompted me to move on, and I'm glad that what I moved on to was Torna. :)
Not sure how much of XC2 you played, but if you got even a decent way into the story, I think there's a lot in Torna you'll appreciate. Like I said, playing Torna made me feel like starting a NG+ run in the base game, which is kind of incredible given the fact that I planned on never touching it again after finishing it last year. :)
As much as I liked my time with Torna. I still prefer the main game because I liked the grander sense of adventure. If Torna had like one or two maps then it would be perfect. I can understand that the other Xenoblades can be a little long but I wouldn't mind an extra 10 hours with more areas to explore. It also didn't help that I found the Torna cast slightly weaker than XC2's cast.
Really I still loved Torna but the main game is the main game for a reason. Hopefully the next game can figure a good compromise between Torna and standard Xenoblade titles. There are some things I loved in Torna like the community system... outside of it being required to beat the game.
Yeah, as I said, I think it's perfect as an expansion, but viewed toe-to-toe with the base game, it's very short, and would benefit from things that you mentioned (another map or two, etc.). But I wouldn't want it to be too much longer. I think it's really encouraging that Monolith was able to create something like Torna, a game that is faithful to but in other ways goes against their norm of creating these gigantic games with tons of different systems that for me, were oftentimes confusing and overwhelming. I mean, just the battle system alone took me watching several YouTube videos to understand, and even then, while I got the hang of it, I opted to use auto mode most of the time because the AI was just way better that I could ever be. LOL It all shows that they're learning and listening to players, so I'm more excited than ever to see what they come up with next!
Love the original Suikoden because of it's length. 10-12 hours. Because of that I actually played through it a few times back to back trying to collect all the characters on my own.
Yeah I'm finding Torna to be a much better experience than XBC2. Shorter, better combat system, no bullshit gacha elements, and much better characters. Really wish OG Xenoblade 2 was like this.
If I couldn't get through Xenoblade 2 after like the first five or six hours, and thought it was way too complicated, would I like Torna? I've heard it's easier to get into.
If I couldn't get through Xenoblade 2 after like the first five or six hours, and thought it was way too complicated, would I like Torna? I've heard it's easier to get into.
playing through torna and loving the heck out of it, i loved xeno 2 as well, but this is good entry point for anyone considering the game, but not ready to commit too much time
Adored Torna. It made replaying XB2 on New Game+ eye-opening as well. So much more depth to characters and events. The game did such a good job of making some scenes appear certain ways when the context was actually much different in Torna's storyline.
Loved Torna but I wish we had more places to explore. I felt the game was very restrained in this department. I'm all for bite-sized RPG. Just make me explore a bit more than Torna.
XC2, in the same amount of time, let us walk on much more terrains, which I quite liked.
If I couldn't get through Xenoblade 2 after like the first five or six hours, and thought it was way too complicated, would I like Torna? I've heard it's easier to get into.
It's extremely streamlined, although the combat still has a decent level of complexity (almost like a rally system where you can recover lost health by switching active party members, etc.). Nice thing is that if it's overwhelming, you can turn auto combat on and let the game AI take over, which personally I really enjoy so that I can actually see what's happening as opposed to just staring at the UI. LOL
I don't have it in front of me, but pretty sure you can adjust game difficulty on the fly, and it has most (if not all) of the various other settings like auto combat, enemy aggro on/off, etc.
I don't know... there are several folks in this thread who are playing it without prior experience with the base game and they're enjoying it. :) Helps that it's a prelude/prequel.
I love Torna, but I love Xenoblade Chronicles 2 also. I love what they both offer and I enjoy Monolith Soft making the experience and QOL changes to Torna. They're such a great developer.
I feel both work well on their own ways. Xc2 is a great game, and yeah, its terribly long, but variety of places to explore and the amount of content to discover is fantastic.
Torna is a more streamlined versIon, which helps the story, but it does leave you wanting for more at the endgame.
I don't know... there are several folks in this thread who are playing it without prior experience with the base game and they're enjoying it. :) Helps that it's a prelude/prequel.
I do want to be clear and reiterate that outside of a few things, I did very much enjoy XC2! I'm not saying I want Torna instead of it, just that Torna got me thinking about and craving shorter RPG experiences. I say all this, and yet what am I playing right now? XC3D and AC Odyssey. LOL
I'm not finished with Torna yet, but I'm finding the game SO boring. I'm at the big town where you have to so side quests to raise your community level. But yeah. I'm just finding the story to be so much of nothing exciting happening. I LOVED XB2, so I am a minority in this thread, as I have not enjoyed Torna more.
I don't think I'm going to finish it. But I need to give it another chance I guess. I'm not real invested in Addam or Lorena , I think they're just whatever characters. I thought Rex and Nia made better travel companions.
Yep. Don't think most RPGs hold up too much after 20-30 hours.
A lot are ruined by bloat- Bravely Default and OctoPath are way too long, BD is twice as long as it has any right to.
And a lot of others would be better if they trimmed the fat - XC2 without any chapters revolving around Tora and his dumb family, P5 could be 30 hours shorter at least, NieR Automata lost a lot of people due to bloat
FFXV, for its many many faults, at least is like 22 hours.
KH3 is 25.
Good length
Adored Torna. It made replaying XB2 on New Game+ eye-opening as well. So much more depth to characters and events. The game did such a good job of making some scenes appear certain ways when the context was actually much different in Torna's storyline.
Seeing that image, it reminded me that I wonder what's with some Nintendo games recently having the group picture where the majority of the people ended up meeting certain death, both Torna and BotW's second DLC had it.
Eh, not really in my opinion. I digged the artstyle but I thought it was a pretty boring experience as a whole from both the exploration and battle system.
As for Torna, I really digged the combat system since it is indeed a more refined version of the one from the main game, is almost comparable to the improvements that Baten Kaitos Origins did to the original Baten Kaitos (Although definitely not that extent since those were worlds apart).
The problem with Torna is that the pacing gets a hit because it forces you to do a ton of sidequests to finish the story (which brings me bad memories of XCX) and thus it feels mostly bloated instead of having an actual decent length.
That being said, it is still a pretty worthy entry and gives you a bigger context to the story from XC2 (and this is a nice complement because XC2 itself also gives you a better context of the story from the original XC).
Despite praising Torna in this thread and acknowledging there's merit in a tighter more focused RPG experience, I do think it's hard to resist the pull of the larger, more sprawling campaigns.
More locales, more characters, more story... more everything really. This can be overdone of course, but the payoffs can be massive.
Xenoblade 2 has 14 hours of cutscenes, dozens of heart to hearts dotted around the world and numerous multi-stage blade quests where characters interact with one another. All of this is voiced and really adds texture to the cast.
As a result, these characters feel more alive and tend to have longer, more complex arcs in comparison to Torna where the main party get a fraction of the time to shine.
Could the stellar battle system in Torna carry the game for another 40 hours? I'm not sure. It's missing the sheer variety of the combat in the main game.
Torna falls apart at the endgame. You'll spend the last dozen or so hours facing the same four superbosses because you've outlevelled everything else. The journey from Lv60 to Lv99 is not a smooth one.
Meanwhile, Xenoblade 2's Alrest has so many secret areas and unique monsters. It's a thrill to do an endgame world tour, stumbling on things you never knew existed - a feeling that's hard to replicate in a smaller world.
I suppose my point is, Torna is great but given it's shorter run time and smaller story it feels like less of an adventure. Xenoblade 2 can feel overwhelming, but the climax is enhanced by its larger, longer story.
The perfect Xenoblade is somewhere in between the two games. A streamlined 40-hour Xenoblade with the best bits of both would be amazing.
Torna completes the main game I think. The sense of history or melancholic loss, the motivations of the antagonists, the weight of so many scenes. XC2 + Torna is a ludicrous behemoth and Takahashi is a madman. Between the games is nearly 26 hours of voiced scenes between cutscenes and heart to hearts, the world building and sense of culture and history is extensive, the towns are amazing, even the particular differences in the combat mechanics reinforce history and legacy and similar storytelling vehicles apply to character development for both games as well. So I don't really think it's interesting to separate Torna from XC2 as it complements the main game in numerous respects.
I'm not finished with Torna yet, but I'm finding the game SO boring. I'm at the big town where you have to so side quests to raise your community level. But yeah. I'm just finding the story to be so much of nothing exciting happening. I LOVED XB2, so I am a minority in this thread, as I have not enjoyed Torna more.
I don't think I'm going to finish it. But I need to give it another chance I guess. I'm not real invested in Addam or Lorena , I think they're just whatever characters. I thought Rex and Nia made better travel companions.
Dang, that sucks! Sorry you didn't like it. The community level requirement at the end was a bit of a surprise, but it didn't really take me very long to get it to whatever level was required (4, I think). I was only a few off from 3, and the rest came easy due to the streamlined mission structure. Plus, some of the stories were cool/funny, although overall, a lot of NPC sidestories in this and the base game were quite average or forgettable.
I do really love the music in that city though... both daytime and nighttime themes got stuck in my head long after I was finished with the game. If there's one thing I can't fault XB for whatsoever is the music.
Seeing that image, it reminded me that I wonder what's with some Nintendo games recently having the group picture where the majority of the people ended up meeting certain death, both Torna and BotW's second DLC had it.
I don't know, but I love it. It's a pretty common storytelling device to tie the past to present/future. I loved it in The Champion's Ballad. So much so that after I finished that expansion, all I wanted was a full-blown BOTW follow-up featuring all of them (plus Zelda) as playable characters.
Despite praising Torna in this thread and acknowledging there's merit in a tighter more focused RPG experience, I do think it's hard to resist the pull of the larger, more sprawling campaigns.
More locales, more characters, more story... more everything really. This can be overdone of course, but the payoffs can be massive.
Xenoblade 2 has 14 hours of cutscenes, dozens of heart to hearts dotted around the world and numerous multi-stage blade quests where characters interact with one another. All of this is voiced and really adds texture to the cast.
As a result, these characters feel more alive and tend to have longer, more complex arcs in comparison to Torna where the main party get a fraction of the time to shine.
Could the stellar battle system in Torna carry the game for another 40 hours? I'm not sure. It's missing the sheer variety of the combat in the main game.
Torna falls apart at the endgame. You'll spend the last dozen or so hours facing the same four superbosses because you've outlevelled everything else. The journey from Lv60 to Lv99 is not a smooth one.
Meanwhile, Xenoblade 2's Alrest has so many secret areas and unique monsters. It's a thrill to do an endgame world tour, stumbling on things you never knew existed - a feeling that's hard to replicate in a smaller world.
I suppose my point is, Torna is great but given it's shorter run time and smaller story it feels like less of an adventure. Xenoblade 2 can feel overwhelming, but the climax is enhanced by its larger, longer story.
The perfect Xenoblade is somewhere in between the two games. A streamlined 40-hour Xenoblade with the best bits of both would be amazing.
Yep, and to be fair, even I conceded in my original post that Torna's 20 hours was too short for this style of game, but that the overall experience and how it was all framed and paced made me want some other similar, shorter RPGs.
You do make a good point about what XB2 has to offer, and I think that's exactly it. XB2 and other games with immense depth/complexity will absolutely reward the player with its riches if you so desire to put in the effort. For me, I didn't really have much interest in pursuing everything. I did a decent amount of side content, but had no will or drive to keep going for everything, as even that took me 100 hours.
I do wish I had the time to "do it all", and back when I had more free time, I would have. It was only ~15 years ago that I marathoned and 100%'d pretty much every Final Fantasy game from IV-X, plus CT and CC, and whatever other RPGs were popular at the time. 5 years after that, I ran through all the Dragon Quest games, including 200~250 hours on DQ9, 150 on DQ7, etc. I'd stay up until 5AM and somehow make it into work at 10AM and be just fine. No can do now. LOL I'm out by 10PM, so I get maybe an hour or two per day, usually less, so that makes the prospect of 100+ hour games less attractive.
That sucks too because I would love to be able to keep going and max out all the social links in Persona 5, do all the heart-to-hearts in this series, etc., but it just isn't all that realistic for me sadly. :(
Torna completes the main game I think. The sense of history or melancholic loss, the motivations of the antagonists, the weight of so many scenes. XC2 + Torna is a ludicrous behemoth and Takahashi is a madman. Between the games is nearly 26 hours of voiced scenes between cutscenes and heart to hearts, the world building and sense of culture and history is extensive, the towns are amazing, even the particular differences in the combat mechanics reinforce history and legacy and similar storytelling vehicles apply to character development for both games as well. So I don't really think it's interesting to separate Torna from XC2 as it complements the main game in numerous respects.
I like the way you and Mr.Fletcher said similar things, and it does make me want to maybe at least dabble with a NG+ playthrough. Appreciate the thoughts, and I agree that they shouldn't be viewed as separate entities, but complements to one another (although they can certainly both be enjoyed on their own).
Thanks for letting me know. I absolutely LOVED the demo (IIRC, I put like 15+ hours just into that), but for whatever reason, I just never got around to playing the full game. Not to get too off topic, but if you've played it, how's Bravely Second?
Thanks for letting me know. I absolutely LOVED the demo (IIRC, I put like 15+ hours just into that), but for whatever reason, I just never got around to playing the full game. Not to get too off topic, but if you've played it, how's Bravely Second?
The base game boasts a superior cast of characters, more varied environments, a stronger soundtrack and a better story in my opinion - but it's a fantastic expansion all the same.
But you know what really impresses me about Torna? And it isn't just that it manages to deliver a satisfying JRPG experience in 20 to 30 hours.
It's how Monolith Soft refined the Xenoblade 2 formula after the original 2017 release.
They stripped back and reimagined the combat system to make it quicker and more intuitive.
They tutorialised systems far more clearly and allowed you to access helpful tips at any time in the menu.
They consolidated lots of systems into the camp fire crafting mechanic, which also doubled as a vehicle for more characterisation for party members.
They clearly labelled collection spots so you always knew what type of material you were going to get, cutting down on frustration.
The reduced the cast size, resulting in less micromanagement and less invasive field skill checks.
They wove the side quests together beautifully in a way they just didn't manage to in the main game.
It's an incredible achievement by the studio and shows that they listened to the criticism. Across the board, it lacks the depth of the main game - but it compliments it nicely.
As an expansion it's stellar. It sheds light on the events before the base game, introduces major new mechanics, new locations, new music, etc. There's not many add-ons that can boast that.
The only criticism I really have for it is the forced sidequests, but other than that it's a tighter experience that I want from more JRPGs instead of meaningless bloat. I would even go as far as to say that it's Nintendo's best DLC effort so far.
The only criticism I really have for it is that forced sidequests, but other than that it's a tighter experience that I want from more JRPGs instead of meaningless bloat. I would even go as far as to say that it's Nintendo's best DLC effort so far.
Yeah, of the ones I've purchased for Nintendo titles, it's definitely my favorite, even though they do a pretty great job with them in general. It reminds me of what's possible when a developer sets out to create something that's related, but almost entirely new. While I liked The Champion's Ballad and the QoL additions the expansion added (but like XB2, those shouldn't have been locked behind a paywall), the fact that the vast majority of BOTW's took place in areas you've already been to *and* in the same time period, it just feels like they dropped in quests, remixed some things, and added some nice cutscenes as opposed to really expanding upon and improving/refining existing ideas around the world and gameplay systems.
There are things that you're missing, but it's mostly the very end of the game (the scenes after the final boss) that verge into being incomprehensible without knowledge of the main game. Luckily, the rest of the story is largely standalone as you've said.
Virtually no games justify a runtime longer than 40 hours. Xenoblade 1 is an extremely rare exception to the norm, but games in general always benefit from a tighter focus and a heavy reduction in runtime.
The best RPGs, by and large, are from the 16bit and 32 bit eras; where they were typically 10-30 hour affairs. The most critically acclaimed RPGs of all time (Xenoblade 1 being the big notable exception) are all around 10-20 hours.
Problem though is that this industry has pushed the angle of Gameplay Hours = Value for so long that the big publishers and developers literally can't fathom making a game that isn't absolutely littered with useless padding and bloat.
If you don't want to play the main game, try to watch the cutscenes in YouTube, because then stuff starts making sense. Plus, the emotional punch of the main game endgame scenes after playing Torna is bigger.
Whilst on the subject of shorter RPGs, if you have a 3DS then Soul Hackers and Crimson Shroud are both tighter, shorter RPGs. Soul Hackers was around 20-30 hours and Crimson Shroud requires two playthroughs but should only take roughly 20 hours combined for both playthroughs (10 for the first playthrough, if that). Lost Dimension (PS4/PC) was around 15 hours long and I had a good time with that too.
Torna is a superior overall experience compared to the main game but I don't think it being shorter worked to its benefit. It has a really interesting premise with the destruction of the world by Malos and its characters are more interesting than the base game. The gameplay system is more refined. The world design is really good. The voice acting on average is way fucjing better than the main game.
But the game doesnt get a chance to flesh out some of the characters because of the length. The end game is the worst of any Xenoblade due to only having 4 monsters level 65 or higher. The lack of blades reduces the customization abilities.
I think if Torna was the main game it would be a better overall game. It is my favourite Xenoblade game though.
Virtually no games justify a runtime longer than 40 hours. Xenoblade 1 is an extremely rare exception to the norm, but games in general always benefit from a tighter focus and a heavy reduction in runtime.
The best RPGs, by and large, are from the 16bit and 32 bit eras; where they were typically 10-30 hour affairs. The most critically acclaimed RPGs of all time (Xenoblade 1 being the big notable exception) are all around 10-20 hours.
Problem though is that this industry has pushed the angle of Gameplay Hours = Value for so long that the big publishers and developers literally can't fathom making a game that isn't absolutely littered with useless padding and bloat.
Speaking of XB1, I got back into XB3D last week, and at the 40-hour point, things are really picking up. Didn't think I would, but I liked exploring Eryth Sea's various platforms and some of the areas underneath. I'm still impressed with the world's scale and how certain quests auto-complete, etc., allowing you to focus on continuing your exploration.
I also hit a point where I finally had to switch up my main party, and not just that, but who I was controlling. I was getting worked pretty hard by a boss, but as soon as I put Riki in my party and was controlling him, his various battle arts and ease of getting enemies into topple/daze states meant the boss didn't stand a chance. Taught me an important lesson that it wasn't just about who was in my party, and I've been having fun ever since mixing things up.
I felt like it was just alright. A bit overrated from most. Not a lot actually happens in the story and it's just filled to the brim with fetch quests. I'm all for shorter, tighter experiences but this was far from 'tight'.
Adored Torna. It made replaying XB2 on New Game+ eye-opening as well. So much more depth to characters and events. The game did such a good job of making some scenes appear certain ways when the context was actually much different in Torna's storyline.
