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Iorv3th

Member
Oct 27, 2017
580
The thing is that if you want to suggest that a trans woman's strength/stamina gives her enough of an advantage that she should be barred from competing, then you'd have to also ban any cis women who is equally as strong, or else it would be discriminatory. All trans women aren't inherently stronger than all cis women.

No but if your going to raise that point then why not bring up that not all men are stronger than all women? It doesn't work that way because in competitions you usually have people that train for it and in every instance of mens vs womens sports men that train would be women that train.

So you have to look at other advantages that a mtf trans may have over a cis female that isn't just strictly due to testosterone. If that were the case where are the ftm athletes that are beating men?
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
You know, I get the argument about biological advantages and whatnot. I think there is a point there, but I can't really find myself caring enough to maintain some "sanctity" of sports.
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
While that's obviously true, this kind of argument always makes me wonder if there could be any fair way to do away with gender barriers in sports in general. It doesn't seem realistic, but "Just remove the restrictions fully" seems like such a nice Occam's Razor type dream.
Though that would probably massively backfire.
This line of reasoning makes sense if you think men and women shouldn't be separated in sports at all. Otherwise I don't see how it's not a dead end.
So you would advocate for scrapping male/female categorisation for sports?

I mean, your're definitely correct in stating that some people are born with inherent genetic advantages for certain things, but where a categorisation framework exists, you have a to draw a line somewhere.

I won't pretend to know exactly where that line should be though.

It is a dead end because any one of the cyclist winners could have some genetic component that gives them an advantage over the other women in the competition. The issue isn't that there is a lack of a level playing field in sports. Rather, it is the acknowledgement of the truth that there is no level playing field in sports.

Yes, we try and separate based on gender to keep a more "balanced" playing field, but that doesn't mean it is ever truly balanced. Consider Eero Mäntyranta. By all accounts, he won his medals in part thanks to his superior genetic advantage over the competition. Should his seven medals be over turned because of his genetic advantage? Should we overturn any award won by any athlete with a genetic advantage of their opponents?

And then we get into the dicey field of actual genetics: how would you properly screen for genetic advantages? How would you properly know what gene indicates a genetic advantage? How much of a genetic advantage is significant enough to warrant disqualification?

If the concern over transgender people being involved in sports unfairly grants certain people genetic advantages, then you would agree we would need to weed out anyone who has a certain level of genetic advantage regardless of their identity above a certain % from the field they are competing against. (This is completely ignoring whether or not transgender people have any inherent advantage or not, something which is a separate discussion.) If you agree that genetic advantages are bad, then we need to be looking into methods to screen athletes ahead of time to ensure that the playing field is equal for all.

Alternatively, you could simply acknowledge the fact that genetic advantages are a part of life, and when it comes to things such as sports, those with genetic advantages are going to rise to the top. That doesn't make sports any less enjoyable. It doesn't ruin the integrity of the sports. People who have the best genetic advantages will always rise to the top to face those who also have the best genetic advantages (the Olympics, etc).
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,802
Man this will be an interesting thread....

I'll probably get chewed out for this, but what I am asking are genuine questions based on my understanding of those who are trans is that the brain functions opposite of the physical bodies sex. I think we all agree that trans people have no choice in how they were born and deserve every right to be treated as everyone else should, and in no way do I wish to demean those who are trans or any other sex/gender related issues that don't conform to traditional society norms.

But when it comes with sports people are divided based on their physical makeup, and even post op you can never get rid of all the male traits that have developed until that point, so wouldn't all trans women have a physical advantage? Men typically are born with larger and wider bones, a higher percentage of muscle vs fat, and different metabolisms linked to weight, thus heart strength? Likewise, wouldn't anyone born with a female body be at a disadvantage in sports due to the differences they were born with, right down to skeletal structure from birth? I am sure there are women who have larger bones and other traits which outclass that of men, but the general trend would indicate this is true.

I've seen multiple stories over the years that focus on those who were born physically as make beating other women in sports, but none regarding those who were born physically female that transitioned to male having success. While I would imagine this could be used to prove a point that it's unfair that trans women can compete in spots, I think it is also important to ask what the difference in public perception and progress there has been for trans women, compared to trans men. I can easily see why someone who transitioned to male wouldn't want to participate in male sports, given the attitude of men vs women and prevalent toxic masculinity. Thus looking at news stories is not a reliable point of data.

Given the different structure at birth, I am inclined to say it's unfair for those that are trans to compete with the opposite birth sex and the physical changes between male and female can never be fully undone. In sports there is no way to ignore this, unlike literally every other aspect of life. I also think it's unfair to exclude those who are trans from sports or tell them they are not good enough or are too problematic to participate. Perhaps competitions exclusively for trans people is something we need to consider in the future? We have competitions or those who have suffered dehabilitating injuries in life or birth in the form of the Special Olympics, so would that not be something we should one day do for those who are trans and normalize people who were born into that life.

Again, what I am asking here are genuine questions and not rhetorical, and I apologize in advance if anything in here is hurtful to others and have tried my best in explaining my thinking in a way that is respectful to all this may effect. I feel sometimes these conversations can be difficult, but the more it's talked about the more people can learn, even beyond myself.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
It is a dead end because any one of the cyclist winners could have some genetic component that gives them an advantage over the other women in the competition. The issue isn't that there is a lack of a level playing field in sports. Rather, it is the acknowledgement of the truth that there is no level playing field in sports.

Yes, we try and separate based on gender to keep a more "balanced" playing field, but that doesn't mean it is ever truly balanced. Consider Eero Mäntyranta. By all accounts, he won his medals in part thanks to his superior genetic advantage over the competition. Should his seven medals be over turned because of his genetic advantage? Should we overturn any award won by any athlete with a genetic advantage of their opponents?

And then we get into the dicey field of actual genetics: how would you properly screen for genetic advantages? How would you properly know what gene indicates a genetic advantage? How much of a genetic advantage is significant enough to warrant disqualification?

If the concern over transgender people being involved in sports unfairly grants certain people genetic advantages, then you would agree we would need to weed out anyone who has a certain level of genetic advantage regardless of their identity above a certain % from the field they are competing against. (This is completely ignoring whether or not transgender people have any inherent advantage or not, something which is a separate discussion.) If you agree that genetic advantages are bad, then we need to be looking into methods to screen athletes ahead of time to ensure that the playing field is equal for all.

Alternatively, you could simply acknowledge the fact that genetic advantages are a part of life, and when it comes to things such as sports, those with genetic advantages are going to rise to the top. That doesn't make sports any less enjoyable. It doesn't ruin the integrity of the sports. People who have the best genetic advantages will always rise to the top to face those who also have the best genetic advantages (the Olympics, etc).
I mean, I agree with everything, but that still makes it sound like the "solution" would be to just remove categorization based on gender, and just let everyone compete just based on purely physical groupings like height or weight.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
is she passed hormone regulations, then what the fuck is the problem?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,128
Something something slippery slope something something Ivan Drago.

Meanwhile on Twitter, thousands of people are now intensely concerned about the details and rules of women's track cycling, as a matter of great import that they should have an opinion about.
There should be a test, "explain the difference between a sprint, pursuit, and keirin," to comment.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
At first, I was going to agree that one does have to take the body's composition pre- and post- transition into account, but what caught my eye was this line in particular:

"Others on social media accused the athlete of cheating, claiming her competing is unfair to cisgender women."

The truth is, it's not as simple as just saying "hurr durr she was a man before so she's too OP to face against women."

The nuanced answer is that there are too many variables to take into account that it'd be disingenuous to act like a transgendered's former maleness is an inherent athletic advantage. Just because she was a man before and had the benefit of testosterone for athletic performance, doesn't necessarily mean that will remain the same after transitioning. You lose muscle mass, your joints accommodate for the lost muscle mass, your bones get lighter, and you lose abilities that you had before and likely have to re-train your body to adapt to. Otherwise, by that logic, every man would outperform women no matter what their athletic ability was. And we know this isn't the case, the athletic woman is still going to outperform random Joe Schmoe in a certain task. What matters is your genetic potential, overall health, your ability, training, nutrition, bodily composition, and the list goes on. To reduce that to simply how much testosterone one has is illogical.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,797
Yup I had a roommate who was a female junior Olympian. She said it was rampant, to put it mildly.

They should open it to allow for any and all ped's you want. Then everyone is on equal footing and it comes down to how much you can push the limits before your heart explodes.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
Absolutely nailed it!

is she passed hormone regulations, then what the fuck is the problem?
You can been fully transitioned and still have the physical advantage decades of high testosterone and male body development give. That being said I have no idea the technical aspects of cycling.
But for sports like wrestling and weightlifting I due think there is a large issue.
 
Oct 27, 2017
186
Science has shown the loss of most advantages a biological male would have, the toughest committees that actually do real testing and punishment for things like doping already allow trans people to compete with hardest rules for hormone levels and amount of time at those hormone levels, levels by the way that at least in the case of women put those levels lower than those born biologically female, but let's throw that all out for feelings (as "shockingly" enough is already happening in this thread, one of those era double standards I just love) and TERF rhetoric and repeated calls for "evidence" which as I said already exists and has already been set in place according to quite a few competition committees based on scientific eveidence and medical consensus which if previous threads on both pre-migration GAF and here will be repeatedly ignored no matter how many times stated or links posted as those ignoring it repeatedly say they have no problem with it if scientific eveidence says it actualy affects them though they cannot see how because biologically birthed males have inherent advantages regardless and evidence will be posted once again to be ignored by "concerned" terf rethoric posts saying there needs to be scientific studies, which will be posted, ignored, posted than ignored to infinity worse than my run on sentence of a post.

Every single time a thread about trans athletes is posted...every.single.time.

Thank you. It's a never ending cycle.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
You can been fully transitioned and still have the physical advantage decades of high testosterone and male body development give. That being said I have no idea the technical aspects of cycling.
But for sports like wrestling and weightlifting I due think there is a large issue.
What relevant physical developments persist after transition? I can think of height, on average. But HRT makes for some very dramatic results from what I've seen.
 

nemoral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,081
Fiddler's Green
Most top level athletes have genetic advantages. It seems to be fine when that advantage is the 577R allele that gives sprinters an edge, or an EPOR mutation in how much oxygen is carried in the blood, or abnormally flexible joints, etc. But heaven forbid someone once had testosterone in their bodies that is now masked by estrogen.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
What relevant physical developments persist after transition? I can think of height, on average. But HRT makes for some very dramatic results from what I've seen.
It really depends on the person, if a woman was training as a male prior to transition and kept intensive training post HRT they may keep much of their underlying muscle mass. Bone structure would play a large role in weight lifting and contact sports. Again. I know nothing about cycling, I was only replying to the posts that were not specific to cycling.
 
Nov 2, 2017
592
I've seen multiple stories over the years that focus on those who were born physically as make beating other women in sports, but none regarding those who were born physically female that transitioned to male having success. While I would imagine this could be used to prove a point that it's unfair that trans women can compete in spots, I think it is also important to ask what the difference in public perception and progress there has been for trans women, compared to trans men. I can easily see why someone who transitioned to male wouldn't want to participate in male sports, given the attitude of men vs women and prevalent toxic masculinity. Thus looking at news stories is not a reliable point of data.

The most famous example would be that young trans man down in Texas, the wrestler. Now as a trans man, he wants to fight against the men. But under the stupid rules which condemn people to compete under the gender they were assigned at birth, rather than who they are now, he's forced to fight against female wrestlers instead. And of course he's battering them, because he's a dude up against women.

The funny part of all that, and "funny" needs to be in all the quote marks you can muster here, is that all the bigots are raging about him competing against women, yet these are all the rules that they are advocating for. Born a woman = always a woman, that's how they think. They'll even rage that "this is a dude, he should be fighting the dudes", which is what the lad himself wants, because they don't realise that he transitioned from female to male and they, as always, assume it's always men transitioning to women.
 

D65

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,862
There is a very obvious trend of advantages for trans women in sports and it absolutely is a issue to be debated.

Definitely HRT will remove most of the developed advantages but not all. I wonder how the Olympics will persue this issue.
 
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D65

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,862
The most famous example would be that young trans man down in Texas, the wrestler. Now as a trans man, he wants to fight against the men. But under the stupid rules which condemn people to compete under the gender they were assigned at birth, rather than who they are now, he's forced to fight against female wrestlers instead. And of course he's battering them, because he's a dude up against women.

The funny part of all that, and "funny" needs to be in all the quote marks you can muster here, is that all the bigots are raging about him competing against women, yet these are all the rules that they are advocating for. Born a woman = always a woman, that's how they think. They'll even rage that "this is a dude, he should be fighting the dudes", which is what the lad himself wants, because they don't realise that he transitioned from female to male and they, as always, assume it's always men transitioning to women.

Truth.

Though it's obvious that the main complaints of trans people in sports isn't some scientific nuanced discussion on social media, it is spear headed by transphobia. That's the main reason why you'll hear about every single case where a trans person wins something.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
That's scientifically inaccurate.
Sure, if you discount the scientific and medical evidence and studies that have set the standards for why most high level competition committees including the major cycling competitions and the olympics allow trans-athletes and that evidence setting the standards for what procedures, length of time under those medical treatments and medical tests must be passed for trans athletes to be eligible to compete.

Basically you should not be saying it's scientific since science disagrees and allows trans athletes to compete-but only after passing standards set by scientific research and medical study-already, you just don't see it much because the already astronomically statistical minority of people that are legitimate trans has a very small amount of people that actually can or care to compete atheletically.

But again, as I said before, just like anything involving transgender people this will be ignored, at best you will ignore me at worst continue to try and argue (I refuse to bloody my head against a wall) even though the world body of scientific and medical research backs what I am saying and most serious athletic completions based on pure athletics such as the olympics already have rules in place due to this.

But go ahead and ignore these facts, people always do and I don't expect that to change.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
There is a very obvious trend of advantages for trans women in sports and it absolutely is a issue to be debated.

Definitely HRT will remove most of the developed advantages but not all. I wonder how the Olympics will persue this issue.
I apologize since I think this will be a double post. The olympics already have and allow, as long as the athlete passes certain medical requirements.

Really folks the science is out there and it really is, even for progressives, a case of people letting their feelings and "things that are obvious" letting them ignore actual research and studies that are out there.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Governing sports bodies: Trans Women can compete if they meet the following criteria

Concerned Citizen: Oh geez where's the line, I'm worried about this

Governing sports bodies: Right here, these are the criter....

Concerned Citizen: Oh I don't know this is so nuanced where do you draw the line?

Governing sports bodies: Right here with these regulations

Concerned Citizen: I don't know, male bodies, bone structure, I'm all for trans right and I'm as liberal as they come but...
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
Governing sports bodies: Trans Women can compete if they meet the following criteria

Concerned Citizen: Oh geez where's the line, I'm worried about this

Governing sports bodies: Right here, these are the criter....

Concerned Citizen: Oh I don't know this is so nuanced where do you draw the line?

Governing sports bodies: Right here with these regulations

Concerned Citizen: I don't know, male bodies, bone structure, I'm all for trans right and I'm as liberal as they come but...
Does this unequivocal infallibility extend to all governing bodies?
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Governing sports bodies: Trans Women can compete if they meet the following criteria

Concerned Citizen: Oh geez where's the line, I'm worried about this

Governing sports bodies: Right here, these are the criter....

Concerned Citizen: Oh I don't know this is so nuanced where do you draw the line?

Governing sports bodies: Right here with these regulations

Concerned Citizen: I don't know, male bodies, bone structure, I'm all for trans right and I'm as liberal as they come but...
Yeah...of course your a better person than me so you fight this more often and stronger than I do. Plus as you (or others) that are not the coward I am showing up pretty much guarantees the thread will die. But still, thanks for showing up.
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
Yeah...of course your a better person than me so you fight this more often and stronger than I do. Plus as you (or others) that are not the coward I am showing up pretty much guarantees the thread will die. But still, thanks for showing up.
What are you blathering about? The discussion in this thread has been pretty even keel.
 

Jubbe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,779
Good for her. If she was within guidelines etc. then I have no issue with her competing. If she had an advantage, then that is an issue with the rules of the sport, not her being at fault.

Having said that, the only thing that will make me believe that male born athletes don't have an inherent advantage would be to see a trans-man competing at the top level of male athletics.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
Not only that...
Tall people should be banned from basketball.
People who grew up around swimming pools should be banned from swimming.
etc...

It's just too much of an unfair advantage.

But seriously, as long as you didn't transition genders just to win at the sport (the relevant association obviously needs to make a ruling in such situations) and you adhere by all other rules, it's literally not a problem.
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
Not only that...
Tall people should be banned from basketball.
People who grew up around swimming pools should be banned from swimming.
etc...

It's just too much of an unfair advantage.

But seriously, as long as you didn't transition genders just to win at the sport (the relevant association obviously needs to make a ruling in such situations) and you adhere by all other rules, it's literally not a problem.
Do you think separating sports participation by sex has a purpose?
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
Absolutely nailed it!
I don't think you can really say that it's not a "performance issue" when that's the only reason men and women don't compete together in the first place. They're separated because the physical diffences between the sexes are sufficiently great that women would almost never win anything. So I'm not really sure that making it about "rights" is appropriate if you're going to then compete in a competition that's been deliberately managed in such a way as to (somewhat) negate natural performance advantages.
 

Oscillator

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,787
Canada
Meanwhile no one cares when Russia literally cheats at Olympic sports. :p

https://www.rt.com/sport/425020-rodchenkov-evidence-is-hearsay-limited-probative-value/

tl;dr - The man who was the sole "smoking gun" for the entire "state-sponsored doping" narrative was deemed not reliable by the world's highest sports authority.

Anyhow, it doesn't matter what people do to their bodies. The genetic physical/chemical/mental differences between the sexes are too wide to compensate for.

Of course, I'm talking on average. Everything has some exceptions. But saying "this unusually strong/weak man/woman could compete just fine" is not a valid justification for mixed athletic competition.

As for the genetic mutation argument - so? Elite-level athletes are already a tiny minority, so them having to compete against an even tinier minority IMO doesn't really change anything.

I see both Hollywood and elite-level sports as kind of freak shows - 99.999 percent of the world can NEVER aspire to that stuff.
 
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ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
"We cannot have a woman legally recognized as a trans woman in society, and not be recognized that way in sports," McKinnon was quoted as saying. "Focusing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant because this is a rights issue. We shouldn't be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead."

What a beautiful statement.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
Hm, this is very interesting.

I am all for opening male and female competing with and against each other. It isn't possible in all sports though since that would alienate women in said sports.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,881
Den Haag, Netherlands
Men typically are born with larger and wider bones, a higher percentage of muscle vs fat, and different metabolisms linked to weight, thus heart strength? Likewise, wouldn't anyone born with a female body be at a disadvantage in sports due to the differences they were born with, right down to skeletal structure from birth? I am sure there are women who have larger bones and other traits which outclass that of men, but the general trend would indicate this is true.
You're describing physiological differences. Should Polynesian women be banned from wrestling because they're, on average, stockier? Should Dutch men be banned from basketball due to them being the tallest people in the world? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
What are average testosterone levels for a ciswoman?

Generally curious

And how does one suppress testosterone and how do you measure it? Drugs and blood?
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
You're describing physiological differences. Should Polynesian women be banned from wrestling because they're, on average, stockier? Should Dutch men be banned from basketball due to them being the tallest people in the world? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
Should men and women compete against each other in all sports because physiological differences shouldn't preclude anyone from any sort of competition? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

I wouldn't want them to ban Kareem because he could skyhook over everyone.
Pretty sure he would be banned from the WNBA.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,507
They put some guidelines and she met them. End of story.

At that point it becomes all about natural physique, talent, and skill. Which is like all sports. No 2 people are born the same. Some will always have advantages over others, even in world class competition.

I wouldn't want them to ban Kareem because he could skyhook over everyone.
 

beins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
Does anyone know the rough breakdown of MtoF vs FtoM?. We don't really hear about FtoM in sports.
 

SweetVermouth

Banned
Mar 5, 2018
4,272
I have no idea about cycling but wouldn't it be better if the classes weren't divided by age but by weight/height? This is how it's done in boxing and imo it makes more sense because nobody cares how old you are as long as you can compete and you're healthy. Weight/height separation makes sure someone 6 feet 2 doesn't have to compete against someone 5 feet 5.

What I do hate about the reaction to this article is that she did everything that she needed to do to be able to compete and now it's still not enough.
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
There may be anatomical differences not accounted for by the body's current hormonal makeup. I know that cis women have a lung volume about 12% smaller than cis men, in part because of rib cage dimensions. I don't know if this has been studied but it's possible that this might persist for trans people depending on when they transitioned (but perhaps not).

What we need to collectively decide as a society (and I acknowledge that major sporting agencies have already determined this) is if these anatomical differences, if present, should be considered a differentiating factor that requires somehow separating trans athletes from cis athletes, or if it's instead a naturally-occurring variation that we deem acceptable just like any sort of genetic difference. For the good of society and for the broader acceptance and embracing of trans people, I'd argue these differences should be lumped together with genetic advantage.

However, I have progressive views on gender that if realized by society would see the erosion of male and female boxes, and I sometimes wonder if the situation could get even more complicated than it currently is. I don't mean to frame this as a slippery slope - there really are some problems that haven't yet been encountered in major competition.

Would a high-level gender neutral or non-binary athlete compete in male or female categories? Would the body's current hormonal profile function as the distinguishing factor between male and female groups in sport? If an athlete identifies as female but takes testosterone because they desire certain masculinizing effects, would they compete with men, or women? These people absolutely exist today, regardless of whether or not they're competing in the Olympics - do these grey areas exclude them from high-level play? Currently, NB athletes often pick the team of their choice, male or female. Would "male" and "female" be meaningful or even appropriate categories if there are more people participating that don't entirely conform to those definitions?

I don't think anyone should be excluded from competition because of how they identify, but I don't think this situation is as obviously clear-cut as people make it out to be, and I also think it assumes an absolute binary determined by male and female identity which we consider to be the most important distinguishing factor for athletic competition when it may be more complex than that because of there being other gender identities besides the two, and different hormonal compositions that may not conventionally conform to one's identity.
 
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chicken_pasta

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
893
I have no idea about cycling but wouldn't it be better if the classes weren't divided by age but by weight/height? This is how it's done in boxing and imo it makes more sense because nobody cares how old you are as long as you can compete and you're healthy. Weight/height separation makes sure someone 6 feet 2 doesn't have to compete against someone 5 feet 5.

What I do hate about the reaction to this article is that she did everything that she needed to do to be able to compete and now it's still not enough.
The very nature of the tests filters out who can participate. You won't catch a pure sprinter getting the Maglia Blu at the Giro or the Maillot a Pois at the Tour.

Dividing by age and gender in cycling is pretty sensible, imo, as the performance differences between man and women, and young and old, are pretty significant.

The Dr. here (who the fuck uses her title when competing in a race lol), has the body of a sprinter (large and muscular). How much of that comes as a result from the testosterone during puberty is what we should be analysing.
 
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