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Transgender dev targeted by hundreds of letters requesting her termination; CEO nearly complies

Oct 27, 2017
1,652
Honestly, how does anyone know what the CEO was thinking in this case? I find that part of the story really odd.

Further to that, if the person is still employed then making such a comment seems like an awful idea.

But mostly - fuck the people trying to get her fired. I just can't understand how you'd reach a point where you're spamming some company with nonsense trying to get a complete stranger fired. Can't get my head around it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,006
Germany
America's terrible political system only serves to increase the stupidity of the "radical left" claims. By the standards of countries with actually decent political systems, the Republicans would be considered a far right extremist party. And the Democrats a mostly Center-Right party with the occasional Center Left measure thrown in every now and then.
Yeah very likely true, at least compared to the party's in my country (Germany), American Republicans are comparable to far right party's like our AFD in a lot of their positions and the Democrat's are not very far from our Conservative party the CDU from what i read about them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,672
Finland
It's really bad that being LGBT is a lawful reason for firing. Laws need to be changed ASAP, seriously awful. Good nobody was fired over this.
Honestly, how does anyone know what the CEO was thinking in this case? I find that part of the story really odd.
I wondered too where that came from, would like to know more how it went down.
America's terrible political system only serves to increase the stupidity of the "radical left" claims. By the standards of countries with actually decent political systems, the Republicans would be considered a far right extremist party. And the Democrats a mostly Center-Right party with the occasional Center Left measure thrown in every now and then.

"Radical Left" in modern internet conversation is mostly nothing but a diversion tactic by the alt right to claim the left is just as bad as them.
Yuuup, it saddens me that I don't really see people trying to push for change that much. Though I don't live in the US either, so I miss majority of the discussions. But going on by internet communities, even here which has a lot of political stuff in the OT.
 
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Grizzly

Bear of Love
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
1,489
This thread is about a transgender developer almost getting fired due to harassment from a hate group, it is not a thread about the "radical left." Be advised that further derails of that nature will be subject to bans.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,284
Londinium
Christ are we really gonna push this “not every gamer is bad” bullshit?

Yeah. Duh. Not every gamer is bad. No shit. That’s not the point.

The point is that gaming culture is absolutely toxic. I know that word gets overused, but it’s the truth. Gaming and gamers are a problem.

If you are so thin skinned, have made gaming such an integral part of your identity, that you would rather talk about how mean it is for people to call out gaming culture because “well, I’ve never harassed anyone” (congratulations on that, btw, well done, we’re very proud) then the rampant hatred and bigotry that has infested the gaming community, then you are the problem. You might not be alt-right, or transphobic, or whatever, but you’re still a part of the problem.
I don’t wanna derail the thread but I totally disagree. Not because I am personally offended (I am not emotionally invested in the fact I am ‘gamer’) but I think it’s factually inaccurate and is counter productive to what people are trying to achieve

Factually innaccurate because:
- ‘Gaming’ is fucking huge, arguably bigger than TV at this point. If you were to look at the toxic elements of gaming as a percentage of the whole, it would be under 10
- there are equally toxic elements of other entertainment cultures - in TV and film you have rampant sexism, abuse of power, and obnoxious fans trying to get people fired for racist, sexist, or other stupid reasons
- the cause of these things isn’t the culture itself but a personality type that is drawn to it (the ‘manbabies’) and it false equivalence to say that gaming culture is toxic when that type of person is not somehow essential to gaming culture (I.e if you were to somehow ban gaming, then this toxiticy would not magically disappear, just turn up in other places)


Counter productive because:

- clearly it draws ire, as some people don’t like to be told their favourite thing is toxic and they (wrongly) feel attacked.
- there’s no benefit to trying to label the whole culture when there are much more easily labelled sub sections of the culture that are more specifically at fault (I.e ‘manbabies’, or homophobic teenagers who like to talk shit online, or sexist CEO’s who don’t want to hire female devs, or whatever it may be)
- it provides fodder for other anti gaming narratives, such as they cause violence or are bad for children’s development, which I also don’t agree with for exactly the same reasons
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,230
Honestly, how does anyone know what the CEO was thinking in this case? I find that part of the story really odd.
This struck me as strange, too. I'm curious to know more about this but fully understand that she would subject herself to ridiculous abuse for coming forward. I guess I don't really need to be convinced that GG and KIA types would do this sort of thing either way, but the politics of that office sound fucked.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Member
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
I don’t wanna derail the thread but I totally disagree. Not because I am personally offended (I am not emotionally invested in the fact I am ‘gamer’) but I think it’s factually inaccurate and is counter productive to what people are trying to achieve

Factually innaccurate because:
- ‘Gaming’ is fucking huge, arguably bigger than TV at this point. If you were to look at the toxic elements of gaming as a percentage of the whole, it would be under 10
- there are equally toxic elements of other entertainment cultures - in TV and film you have rampant sexism, abuse of power, and obnoxious fans trying to get people fired for racist, sexist, or other stupid reasons
- the cause of these things isn’t the culture itself but a personality type that is drawn to it (the ‘manbabies’) and it false equivalence to say that gaming culture is toxic when that type of person is not somehow essential to gaming culture (I.e if you were to somehow ban gaming, then this toxiticy would not magically disappear, just turn up in other places)


Counter productive because:

- clearly it draws ire, as some people don’t like to be told their favourite thing is toxic and they (wrongly) feel attacked.
- there’s no benefit to trying to label the whole culture when there are much more easily labelled sub sections of the culture that are more specifically at fault (I.e ‘manbabies’, or homophobic teenagers who like to talk shit online, or sexist CEO’s who don’t want to hire female devs, or whatever it may be)
- it provides fodder for other anti gaming narratives, such as they cause violence or are bad for children’s development, which I also don’t agree with for exactly the same reasons
 
Feb 17, 2018
85
Thing is though, all this alt-right and gamergate shit has shown us a LOT of these people are men in their 20's and 30's... sometimes even their 40's. Some jerk in the Henry Cavill thread got banned for some really horrid comments and he'd mentioned he was like 40.
And that's fine, if its some bigoted jerk is in his 30s or 40s. Honestly I would probably still not condemn him, because its my core belief in the goodness of people that makes me a progressive. But at the same time, I cant fault the logic of people who do.

Im just saying the kids though, teenagers, even early twenties... these people are still actively searching for an identity. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Judge them if it pleases you, but consider judging them a little less harshly is all im saying.

But im 35, and have made a lot of bad decisions in my life... I like to think that gives me insight, but maybe its just evidence I have really bad judgement.
 
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TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,203
The CEO would be a real piece of shit if they had done it. Glad cooler heads prevailed.

edit: redacted due to mod post while I was making the post. Shit, that was about the alt-left stuff, but what I wrote was probably better off as a new thread anyway.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Member
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
Honestly I don’t care about the gamers, I care about accurate arguments and things that solve problems rather than make for punchy forum posts
So glad you're here to help us find an intelluctual and moral high ground in these troubled times. You're not solving any problems, you're derailing by making the same #NotAllGamers points that several other posters made. This is not a thread about Senator Lieberman coming for your copy of GTA. It's a thread about gamers harassing a trans woman and nearly getting her fired.

I'll tell you what I told the last guy. Don't like gamers having this image? Help take gaming back from this pond scum, instead of playing pointless intellectually masturbatory semantic games no one cares about
 
Nov 3, 2017
1,946
I don’t wanna derail the thread but I totally disagree. Not because I am personally offended (I am not emotionally invested in the fact I am ‘gamer’) but I think it’s factually inaccurate and is counter productive to what people are trying to achieve

Factually innaccurate because:
- ‘Gaming’ is fucking huge, arguably bigger than TV at this point. If you were to look at the toxic elements of gaming as a percentage of the whole, it would be under 10
- there are equally toxic elements of other entertainment cultures - in TV and film you have rampant sexism, abuse of power, and obnoxious fans trying to get people fired for racist, sexist, or other stupid reasons
- the cause of these things isn’t the culture itself but a personality type that is drawn to it (the ‘manbabies’) and it false equivalence to say that gaming culture is toxic when that type of person is not somehow essential to gaming culture (I.e if you were to somehow ban gaming, then this toxiticy would not magically disappear, just turn up in other places)


Counter productive because:

- clearly it draws ire, as some people don’t like to be told their favourite thing is toxic and they (wrongly) feel attacked.
- there’s no benefit to trying to label the whole culture when there are much more easily labelled sub sections of the culture that are more specifically at fault (I.e ‘manbabies’, or homophobic teenagers who like to talk shit online, or sexist CEO’s who don’t want to hire female devs, or whatever it may be)
- it provides fodder for other anti gaming narratives, such as they cause violence or are bad for children’s development, which I also don’t agree with for exactly the same reasons
Man, this post just has everything, doesn’t it?

Made up statistics, whataboutism, and even the beginnings of the good old “calling out problems is itself a problem” argument.

Here’s the thing. Im not calling out every individual gamer, im calling out the industry and community. I thought that was clear by my overly sarcastic praise of people making that point, but just in case it wasn’t, I’ll spell it I out again: not every single person who plays video games is a bigot.

But what you’re doing here is attempting to cut out the toxic parts of gaming in order to make the claim that gaming isn’t toxic.

There’s a thread currently open about the changes Rainbow Six are making to try and change the gaming community right now. It’s a decent place to start if you want to see how the people making the games themselves are starting to realise that the community has issues due to how they shaped it, and how they’re attempting to rectify that. Or alternatively there’s a thread on how a mod for a subreddit attempted to close it in order to eliminate it as another source of hate in the community only for reddit to come in and undo that work so they can continue to profit.

Gaming doesn’t need defending. It needs harsh and direct criticism.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,284
Londinium
So glad you're here to help us find an intelluctual and moral high ground in these troubled times. You're not solving any problems, you're derailing by making the same #NotAllGamers points that several other posters made. This is not a thread about Senator Lieberman coming for your copy of GTA. It's a thread about gamers harassing a trans woman and nearly getting her fired.

I'll tell you what I told the last guy. Don't like gamers having this image? Help take gaming back from this pond scum.
Gladly, but saying the culture is toxic just isn’t the way to do it. You’re welcome to keep trying that.

What I’m personally doing is just calling out any example of racism, sexism or discrimination that I personally see, and supporting the positive elements of gaming culture I can with my wallet. I think that’s best I can do.
 
Oct 27, 2017
59
Honestly I don’t care about the gamers, I care about accurate arguments and things that solve problems rather than make for punchy forum posts
Reframing clear problems with gaming culture as a whole as being part of some "fringe element" is a) not accurate, and b) not solving the problem. Get your head out the sand.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,735
Honestly I don’t care about the gamers, I care about accurate arguments and things that solve problems rather than make for punchy forum posts
Pretending that this is not specifically a gaming problem is only going to make it more difficult to solve.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,325
The biggest problem I have here, is mostly the anti-transgender stats.

It is 2018, why is still much more rampant than it should be?

It is Pride weekend here in Scotland, will celebrate for everyone identifying under LGBT+.

Spread love, not hate.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,833
Madrid
I read this in the Kotaku article and was what shocked me the most. I mean, who the fuck cares if the emails were forged or not? If they weren't forged but the result of a standard hate mob, it would have been OK to fire her? Frankly if I was in her position I would be disgusted and looking for a different place to work at ASAP.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,284
Londinium
But what you’re doing here is attempting to cut out the toxic parts of gaming in order to make the claim that gaming isn’t toxic.
That’s exactly what I’m doing. Why is that wrong?

Pretending that this is not specifically a gaming problem is only going to make it more difficult to solve.
It’s not specifically a gaming problem (if ‘it’ is a rise in intolerance, bigotry and hateful behaviour) - it’s a global problem that has infected entertainment, commerce, politics. It’s a more pronounced problem in gaming because gaming has a high percentage of a specific type of person. Working out why those people are the way they are is the way to solve this problem, saying there’s something wrong with the culture is not. In my opinion of course.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,329
Disgraceful. But people should cease to see racism, homophobia etc. only applied to the gamerscene. It's in the society and everywhere. Sadly.
 

Grizzly

Bear of Love
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
1,489
Disgraceful. But people should cease to see racism, homophobia etc. only applied to the gamerscene. It's in the society and everywhere. Sadly.
Pretty sure people do see it in society at large. That shouldn't stop people from criticising it when it appears to gaming in particular.
 
Oct 25, 2017
561
And that's fine, if its some bigoted jerk is in his 30s or 40s. Honestly I would probably still not condemn him, because its my core belief in the goodness of people that makes me a progressive. But at the same time, I cant fault the logic of people who do.

Im just saying the kids though, teenagers, even early twenties... these people are still actively searching for an identity. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Judge them if it pleases you, but consider judging them a little less harshly is all im saying.

But im 35, and have made a lot of bad decisions in my life... I like to think that gives me insight, but maybe its just evidence I have really bad judgement.
Hey for what its worth, every person that I've known who was a piece of shit as a kid/teenager is still a piece of shit as an adult. I think people can change but its rare. Telling insensitive "jokes" is different than participating in a hate campaign to drive away anyone who isn't a straight, white, cis-gender male. That sort of hatred for your fellow human beings is pretty hard to break out of.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,833
Madrid
- ‘Gaming’ is fucking huge, arguably bigger than TV at this point. If you were to look at the toxic elements of gaming as a percentage of the whole, it would be under 10
- there are equally toxic elements of other entertainment cultures - in TV and film you have rampant sexism, abuse of power, and obnoxious fans trying to get people fired for racist, sexist, or other stupid reasons
What kind of statistical study have you performed that makes you that confident in estimating the percentage of toxic gamers and how it measures to other media? Is there a peer-reviewed paper on it that I can check online?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,735
That’s exactly what I’m doing. Why is that wrong?



It’s not specifically a gaming problem (if ‘it’ is a rise in intolerance, bigotry and hateful behaviour) - it’s a global problem that has infected entertainment, commerce, politics. It’s a more pronounced problem in gaming because gaming has a high percentage of a specific type of person. Working out why those people are the way they are is the way to solve this problem, saying there’s something wrong with the culture is not. In my opinion of course.
Nerd culture - comics, video games, pen and paper, anime, etc. - breeds an insular community of really toxic people. Indeed, it isn't nerd culture that made them this way, but it was nerd culture that said "you're good fam" and enabled them to not feel the need to change.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,384
lol what? How is this even possible?
It's really difficult to fight for LGBT rights in a lot of red states. Being able to get sexual orientation and gender identity protected nationwide would go a long way towards fixing this harassment issue as well. Hopefully as awareness of this issue grows, we'll actually see some progress.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,325
America's terrible political system only serves to increase the stupidity of the "radical left" claims. By the standards of countries with actually decent political systems, the Republicans would be considered a far right extremist party. And the Democrats a mostly Center-Right party with the occasional Center Left measure thrown in every now and then.

"Radical Left" in modern internet conversation is mostly nothing but a diversion tactic by the alt right to claim the left is just as bad as them.
It has nothing to do with the political system. It has everything to do with the people. The system reflects what the people want and most of the people have horrible ideals and are easily persuaded From years of media brain washing. Everyone wants to be what they see on tv. Schools put sports over education. The Kardashian’s is a hit show. Music has made being rednecks and thugs something to strive for to young people.

It’s a huge shit show but the actual system does what it was meant to do.
 
Oct 27, 2017
191
Why are people such pieces of shit? Is it really such a bad thing to at least attempt to be kind and treat other human beings as such?

Fuck the mob who tried to get her fired, and fuck the CEO who would have done it to appease bigots.

Edit: and also fuck anyone who tries to defend or justify companies being able to fire people because of their sexuality or gender identity.
 
Jan 10, 2018
23
Prague, CZ
This is so absurd. We live in a world where you need an authorization of your gender, race and opinions from the company. Like they just don't direct you at the workplace but at away as well. This control is getting out of hands. The results of your job should speak for themselves not your identity. Point of view or race or gender is like anus, everyone has one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,574
Despicable. Many people seem to ever only show one emotion online, their hatred for other people. That the CEO even thought about firing her, without her doing anything wrong, is a problem as well.
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,692
USA
This is why the ArenaNet thing is far more complicated and important than “she was rude to a customer so she deserved what she got.”

You have to think about the context and implications at play.
 
Oct 31, 2017
108
Glad I'm not American reading stuff like this, can't believe some places in the western world are so against people because of there sexual preference or gender.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,017
The English Wilderness
People always say all the bad will die off with older generation, but gamer culture says otherwise
Let's not kid ourselves into believing this kind of hate is limited to old people and gamers. It's part of a much bigger cancer of intolerance. The only thing that changes over the generations are the targets of that intolerance. Humans are frightfully incapable of understanding the First Rule, the Most Important Rule:
 
Feb 17, 2018
85
Hey for what its worth, every person that I've known who was a piece of shit as a kid/teenager is still a piece of shit as an adult. I think people can change but its rare. Telling insensitive "jokes" is different than participating in a hate campaign to drive away anyone who isn't a straight, white, cis-gender male. That sort of hatred for your fellow human beings is pretty hard to break out of.
I mean I got arrested for stealing CDs to impress some girls I liked back in middle school. It wasn't about insensitive jokes. This was before cisgender or white male stuff meanmt anything.

But I get the sense you are still probably a weeny as an adult. So this all makes sense.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,253
So glad you're here to help us find an intelluctual and moral high ground in these troubled times. You're not solving any problems, you're derailing by making the same #NotAllGamers points that several other posters made. This is not a thread about Senator Lieberman coming for your copy of GTA. It's a thread about gamers harassing a trans woman and nearly getting her fired.

I'll tell you what I told the last guy. Don't like gamers having this image? Help take gaming back from this pond scum, instead of playing pointless intellectually masturbatory semantic games no one cares about
Let's be real dude, no one here is solving any problems. Were just bitching to strangers in the internet. My fiance is trans, and she's already been passed up for promotions explicitly because she is trans. No amount of righteous indignation on a video game forum will help people like her get adequate legal protections.
 

LightEntite

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
A lot of people should ask themselves before they post whether they're posting about the events here or about themselves. Because ultimately the people actually involved are the gamers engaging in the harassment, the company CEO, and the targeted developer. When you come in here and your concern is none of these people, but that your own identity is under attack, it's showing some strange priorities.

I post in a video game forum regularly, but I'm not going to feel offended when people in that same forum criticize gamers for behaviour that gamers are actually engaging in and have seen evidence of. I'm not going to feel offended because I don't intend to associate myself with those gamer, and I don't know why I should feel that I should just because we both play video games.
It's really strange to me how comfortable people are with making these claims of it being "empathetic" to blindly accept negative sweeping generalizations, and "problematic" to approach these choices from a place of logic. It's just too self-righteous for me to get behind.

but the real issue is that I see absolutely no strong point in just agreeing with the idea that it's okay to say "gamers are mysgonistic nazis" when 99.9% of people who play videogames have nothing in common with these cunts.

it just strikes me as the most counter-productive thing ever; the actual assholes we're talking about here couldn't ask for a more conveniently veiled label if they fucking prayed their hardest. Hateful minorities want nothing more than to give the illusion that they're actually the majority, and granting them that just seems like an asinine strategic move....like why are you okay with that

#NotAllGamers my ass, the whole pathway to approaching it is just confusing to me.

Pretending that this is not specifically a gaming problem is only going to make it more difficult to solve.
So glad you're here to help us find an intelluctual and moral high ground in these troubled times. You're not solving any problems, you're derailing by making the same #NotAllGamers points that several other posters made. This is not a thread about Senator Lieberman coming for your copy of GTA. It's a thread about gamers harassing a trans woman and nearly getting her fired.

I'll tell you what I told the last guy. Don't like gamers having this image? Help take gaming back from this pond scum, instead of playing pointless intellectually masturbatory semantic games no one cares about
It's absolutely a problem in gaming, but it's not inherently caused by gaming. Playing Battlefield doesn't magically turn you into a fuckboy. It's like saying "YouTubers are terrible people" because you saw some hateful comments in the comment section....but literally anyone with an internet connection can make a YouTube account.


put another way, does anyone notice how terms like "Alt-Right" stick so well as a negative?

It's because it's easy for everyone to clearly distinguish them from those who they'd otherwise rather hide behind.

You aren't a conservative, you're an alt-righter. You aren't a German, you're a Nazi. You aren't a muslim/christian/martyr, you're an extremist.

Any self-identifying alt-righter is extremely easy to socially shun. More intelligent alt-righters would rather come up with a completely different name. But if we just called all of them "conservatives" then it would be doing literally nobody favors....except the alt-righters.


this just strikes me as yet another "can't see the forest for the trees" type deal.