Trials of Mana PS4/Switch/PC (2020) and Mana Collection Switch announced

daninthemix

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,292
Now I think about it the ToM remake looks a lot like Dragon Quest 11. I wonder if we're starting to see a sort of Unreal Engine 4 'house style'?
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,941
Then this is even more hilarious. I wonder where the sources were from then. If not rom searching on the Internet.
Pretty sure it was rom searching if it was .SMC files. That's the kind of extension you get if you dumped a game in the 90s from a Super Magicom or a Super Wild Card, which is what most of the early online emulation scene was full, and many of those early dumps still persist to this day.

Which yeah, leaves me confused as to what part nintendo played that necessitated this being an exclusive.
 

Beje

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,277
Pretty sure it was rom searching if it was .SMC files. That's the kind of extension you get if you dumped a game in the 90s from a Super Magicom or a Super Wild Card, which is what most of the early online emulation scene was full, and many of those early dumps still persist to this day.

Which yeah, leaves me confused as to what part nintendo played that necessitated this being an exclusive.
Does SD3 have any special cart chip that needs specific emulation?
 

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,248
Berlin
Pretty sure it was rom searching if it was .SMC files. That's the kind of extension you get if you dumped a game in the 90s from a Super Magicom or a Super Wild Card, which is what most of the early online emulation scene was full, and many of those early dumps still persist to this day.

Which yeah, leaves me confused as to what part nintendo played that necessitated this being an exclusive.
The next thing which would be interesting is if bsnes for example has better emulation than M2 emulation.
 

Beje

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,277
No, the only vaguely exotic thing it used was high-res mode, which is a function of the base snes.
Yep, just googled the PCB and indeed it's a plain cart without the side flaps with extra pins in the connector part. So... what did they need then? Probably validation that they weren't screwing it up with a hacked ROM or something? Like, it wouldn't be the first time one of these releases are done with dumps that are modified with a splash or a message from the person/team that did it.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,941
Yep, just googled the PCB and indeed it's a plain cart without the side flaps with extra pins in the connector part. So... what did they need then? Probably validation that they weren't screwing it up with a hacked ROM or something? Like, it wouldn't be the first time one of these releases are done with dumps that are modified with a splash or a message from the person/team that did it.
They're apparently using roms with SMC headers, so they obviously don't care about being sure of their dumps.

If they wanted to be sure, they could just buy/lend several copies of each region they want, dump and compare, it's not difficult.
 
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Robin64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,173
England
I'm not 100% sure the files actually were SMC files, I was under the impression the dumper just added that extension for standard file association with most emulators. FFA is a .gb file too. It's more likely that all the files were .bin files of just raw data.

Basically, I'd love to see the file structure pre-dump.

Edit: Did a bit of tinkering. Whatever base ROM they used for all the new translations has a SNES checksum of BEBB. They didn't bother recalculating it, so they all come up as that. The SD3 ROM that's floating around the internet has the SNES checksum of E610. So it doesn't seem quite so simple as just using the dump that was out there.
 
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OmegaDL50

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,693
Philadelphia, PA
Wasn’t the Secret of Mana remake bad? Why won’t this game suffer the same fate?
It's not so much as the remake being bad as people didn't like how the original art style transitioned over to 3D character models and it's specific chibi 3D art style that is present.

Bare in mind gameplay, world design, story, the SoM remake is 1 for 1 faithful recreation.

In fact there was discussions in length in regards the gameplay in the remake with some folks complaining you couldn't contiously hit enemies like a full on action game and had to wait for your hit gauge to recover to 100% before being able to deal full damage to an enemy instead of just mashing attack repeatedly, which by the way this is exactly how it also worked in the SNES version too. So it's another case in point of people simply forgot how SoM actually plays or it was their first time playing it and just assuming it wasn't intended by design which is exactly the same of the original game.

However keep in mind there seems to be lack of middle ground in terms of opinion as gross exaggurations and hyperbole are common place, so personal experience aside, some of the flaws that exist in the original mechanically that were overlooked at the time, also exist in the remake which in the same token weren't overlooked, so yeah.

You see SoM isn't really a full on action game as you denote the gauge that needs to recharge to 100% to get a clean hit. In that sense it's like a turn based combat game in action rpg skin. Simply mashing the attack button just lands a bunch of weak hits that are a fraction the damage a player can land if they just wait for pseudo-ATB like gauge to go back to 100% again.

Spells and general big attacks from bosses tend to freeze all animations hence why you are locked in place and cannot move until the attack finishes its animation.

The most significant change in the remake though is spells can no longer be layered over top of each other which would let you effectively stunlock bosses to death, which made most boss encounters trivial. Now that the spell buffer has been removed it makes things somewhat more challenging.

Outside of the very select few that are intolerable to any sort of change at all, the new Secret of Mana is pretty much a straight remake as-is besides the visual and audio changes, which are divisive. However it's certainly not a drastic change that no way resembles the original game as some would lead you to believe.
 

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,248
Berlin
I'm not 100% sure the files actually were SMC files, I was under the impression the dumper just added that extension for standard file association with most emulators. FFA is a .gb file too. It's more likely that all the files were .bin files of just raw data.

Basically, I'd love to see the file structure pre-dump.

Edit: Did a bit of tinkering. Whatever base ROM they used for all the new translations has a SNES checksum of BEBB. They didn't bother recalculating it, so they all come up as that. The SD3 ROM that's floating around the internet has the SNES checksum of E610. So it doesn't seem quite so simple as just using the dump that was out there.
Just read on gbatemp that the files were not straight .smc or .sfc files. They were encrypted. There were also debug files, with the intro still in Japanese. One thing which makes me curious, there are only dumps of SoM the PAL version. How does the 50 hz to 60 hz switch function, if you only use the PAL dump?
 

Robin64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,173
England
Just read on gbatemp that the files were not straight .smc or .sfc files. They were encrypted. There were also debug files, with the intro still in Japanese. One thing which makes me curious, there are only dumps of SoM the PAL version. How does the 50 hz to 60 hz switch function, if you only use the PAL dump?
There's a US SoM in there, just double confirmed it's NTSC in snes9x while the others are indeed PAL.

And yeah there's a debug version too, with an early title screen.

 

Hobbun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
519
Has it been confirmed yet if the physical will required download?

It's not so much as the remake being bad as people didn't like how the original art style transitioned over to 3D character models and it's specific chibi 3D art style that is present.
Actually, from what I heard of the remake, it was/is bad. Littered with bugs, including crashing often for people. One of the reasons I stayed away from it. Now, they may have patched it where it works well now, but everything I was hearing about it was not good. And not just because it was ‘different’ from the original.
 

Crispy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
184
I'm bummed out that Secret of Evermore isn't part of the collection. I loved that game as a kid and have been looking to play it again. This would've been a great opportunity to release it. As it stands now I think I'll pass and just wait for the Trials remake next year.
 

Augemitbutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,207
It's not so much as the remake being bad as people didn't like how the original art style transitioned over to 3D character models and it's specific chibi 3D art style that is present.

Bare in mind gameplay, world design, story, the SoM remake is 1 for 1 faithful recreation.

In fact there was discussions in length in regards the gameplay in the remake with some folks complaining you couldn't contiously hit enemies like a full on action game and had to wait for your hit gauge to recover to 100% before being able to deal full damage to an enemy instead of just mashing attack repeatedly, which by the way this is exactly how it also worked in the SNES version too. So it's another case in point of people simply forgot how SoM actually plays or it was their first time playing it and just assuming it wasn't intended by design which is exactly the same of the original game.

However keep in mind there seems to be lack of middle ground in terms of opinion as gross exaggurations and hyperbole are common place, so personal experience aside, some of the flaws that exist in the original mechanically that were overlooked at the time, also exist in the remake which in the same token weren't overlooked, so yeah.

You see SoM isn't really a full on action game as you denote the gauge that needs to recharge to 100% to get a clean hit. In that sense it's like a turn based combat game in action rpg skin. Simply mashing the attack button just lands a bunch of weak hits that are a fraction the damage a player can land if they just wait for pseudo-ATB like gauge to go back to 100% again.

Spells and general big attacks from bosses tend to freeze all animations hence why you are locked in place and cannot move until the attack finishes its animation.

The most significant change in the remake though is spells can no longer be layered over top of each other which would let you effectively stunlock bosses to death, which made most boss encounters trivial. Now that the spell buffer has been removed it makes things somewhat more challenging.

Outside of the very select few that are intolerable to any sort of change at all, the new Secret of Mana is pretty much a straight remake as-is besides the visual and audio changes, which are divisive. However it's certainly not a drastic change that no way resembles the original game as some would lead you to believe.
Yea, i played them back to back and remake is more fun to play thanks to qol changes. going stairs up/down the blacksmith is already a big pain in the ass in the original but fixed in the remake. menu is better in the remake. there is more characterization when you rest at an inn. you can change original/arranged music on the fly. i'm a big fan on the new artstyle. i think there is less wait time in combat once you knock an enemy down, so combat will be much smoother as a result. i hope someone will do a comprehensive list one day so we can put this to rest. i had some crashes in my playthrough but the game autosaves every room so there is never any real progress lost. i beat the remake before the last patches went live so this may be fixed by now, i don't know.

Anyway, the remake is a much smoother play.
 

Worldshaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
542
Michigan
Has it been confirmed yet if the physical will required download?



Actually, from what I heard of the remake, it was/is bad. Littered with bugs, including crashing often for people. One of the reasons I stayed away from it. Now, they may have patched it where it works well now, but everything I was hearing about it was not good. And not just because it was ‘different’ from the original.
The SoM remake wasn't that bad post patches. I beat the game on launch and even got the platinum trophy with all of its bugs. Thankfully the game auto saves every screen transition so if it crashes its not the end of the world, but still annoying.

Overall it's a 7/10 IMO.

Pros:
A modern/cheap way to play SoM in 2019.
Weapon/Magic shotcuts via L/R buttons
Improved A.I
Party chat when you rest at any Inn.
You can compare armors in shops now. Before you just assumed the new area was always better, but it's still nice to see.
Minimap (I like it, but it can get in the way)
Japanese voice acting sounded ok.
Going for the Platinum was actually fun. It made sure you did everything the game had to offer (all enemies, items, orbs, traveled to every zone)

Cons:
Crashes rarely after patch 1.03 (i don't recall this happening even once on my most recent run about 6 months ago)
the graphics look cheap in 2019 while the original looked good for its time.
English voice acting was pretty bad IIRC
can't turn the mini map off for those who are annoyed by it.
Should've allowed for more shortcut/hotkeys.

I'm a massive SoM fan, and while I would've loved a higher quality "remake" I think this scratched my itch just enough. I even played through the original just before this game out on the SNES classic.

I'm going to play through Seiken 3 again on the Switch, and most likely get the plat on the remake when that comes out next year.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,351
Glad I held off on getting the digital version yesterday, will wait for the physical version in late August. I have plenty of other games in my summer playlist, plus I still haven’t played all the way through SoM on my SNES Classic which I want to do first.

Anyways, I still can’t believe we’re getting an official SD3 localization from SE. Not to mention R-TYPE Final 2, new Samurai Shodown, Genesis mini, Turbografx mini, this is an amazing time and feels like a resurgence of retro/arcade/90s gaming.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,762
I want to get the Collection and play Trials, but I'm seriously considering not playing it until the remake
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,012
You know you can/should/must play Seiken 3 multiple times? You choose 3 heroes from the 6 that will make your adventure. Play with the first 3 on the collection, the others on the remake ... that's how i plan to do it. ^^
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
630
the secret of mana remake was good. divisive art style and occassional crashing were worth it for actual character development and some qol changes. i liked some of the remoxed tracks, but since yiu can switch to the origonal on the fly it doesnt even matter.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,804
The English Wilderness
The SoM remake wasn't that bad post patches. I beat the game on launch and even got the platinum trophy with all of its bugs. Thankfully the game auto saves every screen transition so if it crashes its not the end of the world, but still annoying.

Overall it's a 7/10 IMO.

Pros:
A modern/cheap way to play SoM in 2019.
Weapon/Magic shotcuts via L/R buttons
Improved A.I
Party chat when you rest at any Inn.
You can compare armors in shops now. Before you just assumed the new area was always better, but it's still nice to see.
Minimap (I like it, but it can get in the way)
Japanese voice acting sounded ok.
Going for the Platinum was actually fun. It made sure you did everything the game had to offer (all enemies, items, orbs, traveled to every zone)

Cons:
Crashes rarely after patch 1.03 (i don't recall this happening even once on my most recent run about 6 months ago)
the graphics look cheap in 2019 while the original looked good for its time.
English voice acting was pretty bad IIRC
can't turn the mini map off for those who are annoyed by it.
Should've allowed for more shortcut/hotkeys.

I'm a massive SoM fan, and while I would've loved a higher quality "remake" I think this scratched my itch just enough. I even played through the original just before this game out on the SNES classic.

I'm going to play through Seiken 3 again on the Switch, and most likely get the plat on the remake when that comes out next year.
Don't forget the massive con that is the final dungeon: what was once three large maps on the SNES has now been split up so every room is seperate, and any pacing is lost to constant loading screens...
 

Slaythe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,830
I want to get the Collection and play Trials, but I'm seriously considering not playing it until the remake
yeah I'm torn here too. I've played SD3 so many times it's absurd, so what's one more? But on the other hand it's been like 15-16 years.

Trials remake is a full on remake, new gameplay (combos, air attacks, evades, instant magic etc...) and new story (sharing similar structure but expanded and reworked in some bits).
They said they want to make a modern take on Trials and not 1:1 it, but that fans of the original can enjoy the original with the collection.

So you can absolutely play the original, it won't take away from the remake.


Also the most exciting thing besides potential new classes models, is the fact that ABILITIES ARE GONNA ACTUALLY WORK AND BE USEFUL NOW. Cause in the original some abilities ended up broken or useless. è.é *stares at Hawk and Duran*

Did Secret of Mana get a retranslation? I am assuming it didn't but may as well ask.
It did get a retranslation years ago, which is a good one.

I didn't try SoM in this collection but the team making the collection is the one that retranslated it a while back so it would make sense that they are using their latest work.
Maybe someone else can confirm. Like I know for a fact their mobile port uses the new translation.
 

LunaSerena

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,702
Nintendo to the rescue because Squeenix can't be arsed to keep secure copies of their code.
I hope the physical version is sold here, I don't want to import.
 

Slaythe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,830
Wasn’t the Secret of Mana remake bad? Why won’t this game suffer the same fate?
Look at this post. You will understand why we're excited.





Aaaah the artbook is so good



 
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sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,941
The SNES game is Mystic Quest Legend anyway.
It's one of those games that got different names everywhere. In America it was called Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, and often shortened to just Mystic Quest.
In Japan it was Final Fantasy USA : Mystic Quest. Europe (and prob other pal regions) was the only place that got the "Legend" bit added on the end.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,350
It's one of those games that got different names everywhere. In America it was called Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, and often shortened to just Mystic Quest.
In Japan it was Final Fantasy USA : Mystic Quest. Europe (and prob other pal regions) was the only place that got the "Legend" bit added on the end.
Oh, you're right!
I forgot about the crazy naming convention they had at the time!
That also means there's only 1 Mystic Quest game and that's the OGB PAL version of SD1.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,175
Anyone else pre-order on the NA Square store? Got a confirmation email just now, and unlike my FF7 pre-order listed as "pre-order, will not charge until later", this one did not and there's already the full $52 (after taxing and awful shipping...) charged to my card. Are they like, shipping it out early?

I was wanting to cancel this after solid cart confirmation, and just keep my Best Buy order. Never seen SE charge right away, though.