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Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
For giggles, what could the republican party compromise on for democrats to actually vote for the wall? Last year was DACA but that's out the window now.
Supposedly Trump was floating getting back to last year's deal but that's because he's an idiot. If he wants wall funding he'll have to give up a lot that his base would crucify him for -- something like a full DREAM Act, Voting Rights Act stuff, rolling back of a bunch of Trumpian garbage policies, etc, and that's the whole reason we're here anyway.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Graham: "So we're thinking funding for the wall and --"
Pelosi: "Let me stop you right there"
I'm sure they'd be open for a trade if one actually might exist. There's just no chance of such a thing existing, and if there is republicans should be the ones to come up with it. "plus something else" isn't that.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,032
Terana
meh they are all pushing for a wall
That's mostly Graham I think. but it shows that they're not at all united as Trump likes to claim. They know they're in deeper and deeper jeopardy in 2020 the longer this goes and lol @ Graham even being in that meeting. The other Senators there like Gardener/Collins, who are actually in danger of losing their seats, said they'd reopen Govt now, without a wall. When their constituents start getting more and more pissed, the more they'll make noise too about moving this along. Not that I care, they're all gonna get wiped out regardless in the end.

I mean, again, the people are on the Dems side here.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-has-lost-ground-in-the-shutdown-blame-game/
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/poll-voters-blame-trump-gop-for-shutdown-1088207

So they're content right now, because Trump is just playing to his 30-40% base of crazies. Dems have their own mandate that told them no wall anyway, so why should they budge. But in practical terms, I hope this is over soon and people get paid. That's the most important thing here.
 

Gorger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,628
Norway
This is a spoiled pathetic baby who has gotten everything he wants throughout his whole life, and now that someone actually has the courage to say "No" to him, he has no idea what to do, so he just gets a tantrum and leaves the room angrily.
#artofthedeal
 

SolidSnakeUS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,574
My 4 month old nephew is less of a fucking baby than Cheeto. Dear fucking lord that is some heinous shit...
 

SneakyBadger

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,544
It just occurred to me that people who accuse the Democrats of causing this shutdown are highlighting their own poor interpersonal skills. The suggestion is that threatening "Give me this, or else..." is a reasonable response to a disagreement, and the other person is to blame if they don't capitulate. Imagine dealing with someone like that just in your personal life.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
The hilarious part is this would've never happened and Trump could've had $20 billion for his stupid wall if he had just extended Dreamer protections last year.

Now he's throwing a hissy fit over $5 Billion.

Art of the Deal my ass.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,975
He's too stupid to do it, but I'm willing to bet at leaat one of his associates will kill himself before all is said and done. Once indictments start to roll out, they'll know how screwed they really are and won't want to face the pain and humiliation Manafort is being put through now.

It's going to be absolutely fascinating to watch all the Walking Back once indictments, more plea bargaining for reduced sentences, and jail terms are handed out. At that point, a lot of Republicans will either have to accuse the entire justice system of being a libtard conspiracy, plea ignorance, turn around and say, "SHAME ON YOU!" and talk about how they were really Democrats all the time, or, if they're in too deep, just flee to another country that doesn't have extradition laws with the USA to escape prosecution.

Meanwhile the average Trump supporter will only be left with "I don't believe it! Fake news!" or, "If you think the Republicans were evil THEN HOW EVIL WERE THE DEMOCRATS THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAD TO RESORT TO THAT TO FIGHT THEM, HUH??! HUH?!?! HUH! CHECKMATE, LIBTARDS!"
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
Why?

You keep asserting this. I do not believe it is valid as a general principle!

If we assume that even a minority are genuine in ignorance or incorrect interpretation of the facts then a discussion in which you correct or inform them is inherently of value. I think the above assumption is cynical so you can see why I choose to engage rather than immediately dismiss them as disengenuous or intentional.

I also think there is performative value in it. Virtue signaling as a means of social communication is sort of a lost concept amidst the more vitriolic form it's taken in recent years as an expletive the right flings at the left. To articulate a complex subject publicly and correctly is always going to be more socially appropriate than base degradation and intellectually stimulating as well.
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,866
idiot. lets see how this strategy pays off. the scary thing is, hes stupid and crazy enough to keep going - really hurting people (please dont buckle dems)
 

GaimeGuy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,092
He's too stupid to do it, but I'm willing to bet at leaat one of his associates will kill himself before all is said and done. Once indictments start to roll out, they'll know how screwed they really are and won't want to face the pain and humiliation Manafort is being put through now.
good.

The Republican party, and the federal government by extension of republican control, is holding the American people hostage. And that's not hyperbole. A coup d'etat in these circumstances would be justified.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
If we assume that even a minority are genuine in ignorance or incorrect interpretation of the facts then a discussion in which you correct or inform them is inherently of value.

That assumes you have the capability to educate them in the medium you're in. I don't think you do.

I also think there is performative value in it. Virtue signaling as a means of social communication is sort of a lost concept amidst the more vitriolic form it's taken in recent years as an expletive the right flings at the left. To articulate a complex subject publicly and correctly is always going to be more socially appropriate than base degradation and intellectually stimulating as well.

Sure.

This isn't a complex subject.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
If they can compromise with Senate Republicans they can bypass the President, no? Shouldn't that be the focus? Why even talk with this idiot?
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,477
Calling him a toddler is unfair to the toddlers, they have just borned, Trump is fuckin 72
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
It really is poetic. By trying so hard to build a wall, he only managed to build a wall between himself and his base. I can't imagine he'll be able to rally like he used to.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,303
America
The hilarious part is this would've never happened and Trump could've had $20 billion for his stupid wall if he had just extended Dreamer protections last year.

Now he's throwing a hissy fit over $5 Billion.

Art of the Deal my ass.

His racism against mostly hispanic DACA recipients has prevented him from acting on his racism against other hispanic migrants.

I just hope the SC protects DACA when it gets there.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,433
If they can compromise with Senate Republicans they can bypass the President, no? Shouldn't that be the focus? Why even talk with this idiot?

Because Trump is a fucking moron, but Mitch McConnell is a walking, talking avatar of the Anti-Life Equation. That piece of semi-sentient pond scum is so evil, he can go out walking in a thunderstorm and be perfectly safe because the rain evaporates before it even touches him, and the lightning bends AROUND him just to avoid getting too close.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
That assumes you have the capability to educate them in the medium you're in. I don't think you do.



Sure.

This isn't a complex subject.
It's not, which is why I'm always so surprised when posters call for banning what they assume are bad faith or disengenuous instead of ignoring or engaging.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,303
America
good.

The Republican party, and the federal government by extension of republican control, is holding the American people hostage. And that's not hyperbole. A coup d'etat in these circumstances would be justified.
Surely we're not quite there yet...But once people begin to starve after food assistance goes away, after people become homeless by the hundreds of thousands, then yes, maybe.

But it would provoke a constitutional crisis. Then again, Mitch McConnell doesn't give a fuck about the constitution or he wouldn't have destroyed the senate and the presidency. EDIT: and the supreme court! Almost forgot Merrick Garland. And the nuclear option.
 
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DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
If they can compromise with Senate Republicans they can bypass the President, no? Shouldn't that be the focus? Why even talk with this idiot?
Because if they can get Trump's dumb ass to agree to something, then they don't need to get a 2/3 majority vote for it to be veto-proof.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
If they can compromise with Senate Republicans they can bypass the President, no? Shouldn't that be the focus? Why even talk with this idiot?

Senate Republicans are still scurrying around Trumps feet. I'm hoping Americans starts putting the Senste Republicans toes to the fire. I have a feeling once they feel that heat and the polls show that Americans are holding the Senate Republicans as accountable as they are Trump I think you'll start seeing them abandoning Trump to save their own skin.
 

GaimeGuy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,092
Surely we're not quite there yet...But once people begin to starve after food assistance goes away, after people become homeless by the hundreds of thousands, then yes, maybe.

But it would provoke a constitutional crisis. Then again, Mitch McConnell doesn't give a fuck about the constitution or he wouldn't have destroyed the senate and the presidency.
No, we are already there. We're not at the point where people have nothing to lose, but we are at the point where people are being held hostage by the government, and are being hurt because of it. SEcurity at facilities are understaffed. Food inspections have halted. A million people have already missed out on a paycheck. Those are just a few examples.

The republican wing of the US government has carried out an attack on the American people. "Of, by, and for the people" has been violated at its core
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
His racism against mostly hispanic DACA recipients has prevented him from acting on his racism against other hispanic migrants.

I just hope the SC protects DACA when it gets there.
I'm actually hoping DACA funding gets through into whatever the "long term" bill is even if it means paying for "Increased Border Security".

The wall is dumb as hell, yes, but compared to something like DACA it's whatever. Especially considering pars of the US-Meico border already have walls, lol. And also that his wall is basically a fence, assuming he's still going with the steel slats thing, who knows.

I'm mostly worried about land seizures (or the Governent repurposing their own land for it) and measures to maintain biological diversity across the border, but knowing this administration probably not.
 
Oct 31, 2017
9,620
No, we are already there. We're not at the point where people have nothing to lose, but we are at the point where people are being held hostage by the government, and are being hurt because of it. SEcurity at facilities are understaffed. Food inspections have halted. A million people have already missed out on a paycheck. Those are just a few examples.

The republican wing of the US government has carried out an attack on the American people. "Of, by, and for the people" has been violated at its core

I agree, and I think that this kind of message should be pushed more though I have to think it will if this continues to go on too much longer.

The Democratic House should absolutely 100% not capitulate to the demands of this wannabe tyrant and his enabling sycophants. His actions are 100% that of a terrorist and the United States (nor any sane/rational negotiator) negotiates with a terrorist/sociopath.

If the Dems fold, to me, that's essentially Fascism. Democracy has been literally and demonstrably overriden if that happens.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,954
The man is so desperate to build a wall, part of me wonders how much real actual progressive legislation the democrats could achieve if they did agree to it with but only by attaching everything they could ever want to it. Single Payer, AOC's 70% tax ceiling for the highest brackets, Net Neutrality laws, Prison Reform, National Voting Holiday, National Early Voting, everything and the kitchen sink but with $5 billion allocated toward that wall. It would be an entertaining play, and I really bet the right would feel like they won for some reason too. Then there would be the eventual laughter as years from now, the wall still will not have been built because it was never enough money to build it, much less patrol and maintain it.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,303
America
No, we are already there. We're not at the point where people have nothing to lose, but we are at the point where people are being held hostage by the government, and are being hurt because of it. SEcurity at facilities are understaffed. Food inspections have halted. A million people have already missed out on a paycheck. Those are just a few examples.

The republican wing of the US government has carried out an attack on the American people. "Of, by, and for the people" has been violated at its core
When you put it that way, it does sound pretty fucking bad :/
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
It's not, which is why I'm always so surprised when posters call for banning what they assume are bad faith or disengenuous instead of ignoring or engaging.

No, no.

It's useful to performatively discuss complex subjects.

This isn't one, so there is no value to performatively discussing it.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
I'm actually hoping DACA funding gets through into whatever the "long term" bill is, even if it means paying for "Increased Border Security".

The wall is dumb as hell, yes, but compared to something like DACA it's whatever. Especially considering pars of the US-Meico border already have walls, lol. And also that his wall is basically a fence, assuming he's still going with the steel slats thing, who knows.

I'm mostly worried about land seizures (or the Governent repurposing their own land for it) and measures to maintain biological diversity across the border, but knowing this administration probably not.


Nah... After how my family and friends got treated in Puerto Rico along with the rest of Puerto Rico after the hurricane by Trump, his staff, FEMA, and "some" of the American people.

Fuck the Wall and all those racists piece of human waste.

I rather not empower these people in any way to get a gain somewhere else.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,433
The man is so desperate to build a wall, part of me wonders how much real actual progressive legislation the democrats could achieve if they did agree to it with but only by attaching everything they could ever want to it. Single Payer, AOC's 70% tax ceiling for the highest brackets, Net Neutrality laws, Prison Reform, National Voting Holiday, National Early Voting, everything and the kitchen sink but with $5 billion allocated toward that wall. It would be an entertaining play, and I really bet the right would feel like they won for some reason too. Then there would be the eventual laughter as years from now, the wall still will not have been built because it was never enough money to build it, much less patrol and maintain it.

Trump will not actually go for that. That's the thing about his narcissist brain - it's not just enough that he wins, he has to ensure the other side loses. The only "goal" for him is getting Democrats to agree to his demands and accept the NOTHING he offers in return.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
The man is so desperate to build a wall, part of me wonders how much real actual progressive legislation the democrats could achieve if they did agree to it with but only by attaching everything they could ever want to it. Single Payer, AOC's 70% tax ceiling for the highest brackets, Net Neutrality laws, Prison Reform, National Voting Holiday, National Early Voting, everything and the kitchen sink but with $5 billion allocated toward that wall. It would be an entertaining play, and I really bet the right would feel like they won for some reason too. Then there would be the eventual laughter as years from now, the wall still will not have been built because it was never enough money to build it, much less patrol and maintain it.

Trump would sign it, but McConnell would never put anything like that up for a vote.

Not all Republicans are stupid. There are evil ones, too.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Trump will not actually go for that. That's the thing about his narcissist brain - it's not just enough that he wins, he has to ensure the other side loses. The only "goal" for him is getting Democrats to agree to his demands and accept the NOTHING he offers in return.

Yeah, I think it's an error to assume Trump would even sign a clean CR with wall funding. If he could get wall funding by shutting down the government, why not keep it shut down until Dems agree to cut legal immigration?
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,303
America
Yeah, I think it's an error to assume Trump would even sign a clean CR with wall funding. If he could get wall funding by shutting down the government, why not keep it shut down until Dems agree to cut legal immigration?
and that's why you don't pay ransoms.

the wall died when the dems took the house. Why can't Trump understand that? He will have to at some point.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,433
Yeah, I think it's an error to assume Trump would even sign a clean CR with wall funding. If he could get wall funding by shutting down the government, why not keep it shut down until Dems agree to cut legal immigration?

Yeah. Essentially, if there was any chance people would be able to view "Trump getting the wall" as Democrats getting a win over him, he wouldn't sign it. He'd fold his arms and throw it back to them with a worse offer. Trump doesn't do mutually beneficial agreements.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
Nah... After how my family and friends got treated in Puerto Rico along with the rest of Puerto Rico after the hurricane by Trump, his staff, FEMA, and "some" of the American people.

Fuck the Wall and all those racists piece of human waste.

I rather not empower these people in any way to get a gain somewhere else.
It's not about empowering him. Considering Republicans have the senate, a compromise bill is going to have to pass. And I'd really like that compromise bill to have DACA protections so less people get hurt. If that means building a dumb wall or fence or w/e, I say go for it (provided there's the regulations on it above).

What Democrats aren't and shouldn't be caving to is this notion that they owe Trump $5 Billion for the wall and given nothing in return. Especially since it's got to the point of choosing to shut down the government instead of currently funding as is for another month to figure shit out and get a budget passed. That's some shit, and I completely agree about empowering Trump in this case.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,433
It's not about empowering him. Considering Republicans have the senate, a compromise bill is going to have to pass. And I'd really like that compromise bill to have DACA protections so less people get hurt. If that means building a dumb wall or fence or w/e, I say go for it (provided there's the regulations on it above).

What Democrats aren't and shouldn't be caving to is this notion that they owe Trump $5 Billion for the wall and given nothing in return. Especially since it's got to the point of choosing to shut down the government instead of currently funding as is for another month to figure shit out and get a budget passed. That's some shit, and I completely agree about empowering Trump in this case.

There is not going to be a compromise bill. Trump believes he has all the leverage here and he will not let the Democrats walk away from this with even a fraction of a "win". He's already fucked over a compromise bill before because it would've helped Dreamers.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992

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bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,537
and that's why you don't pay ransoms.

the wall died when the dems took the house. Why can't Trump understand that? He will have to at some point.

No, he won't. He will continue to turn to Fox News who will claim Dems are in the wrong for not funding his campaign promise and he'll think it's his to have and the nasty Dems are just being assholes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,035
I'm actually uninformed here; so Emergency Powers, can he actually just do this unencumbered if Dems don't let him get his way? That seems to be what this is all building to. What consequences/roadblocks are there besides the unspent money that would have gone to defense getting wasted on a wall?