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Deleted member 41502

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 28, 2018
1,177
Turkey =/= Europe as a whole.
Tons of European countries develop their own weapons, many of which are exported to other countries, without objection from the US.
The US isn't obligated to sell F-35s to an inconsistent and unreliable ally that is willing to get in bed with Putin.
I don't know what that has to do with anything. I don't even know what you're arguing. Do you think Turkey made this deal because the US refused to sell them missile defense systems. Like, we refused to sell them to Turkey, and now we're punishing Turkey for buying them from someone else?

Or are you just arguing that we're treating Turkey specially somehow and we'd be fine with France buying these weapons from Russia?

I'm just saying that we're inconsistent and unreliable. We've renigged on our NATO promises in recent years, and demanded our allies to spend more on their own defense. And now we're mad that they're spending more on their own defense.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,367
I don't know what that has to do with anything. I don't even know what you're arguing. Do you think Turkey made this deal because the US refused to sell them missile defense systems. Like, we refused to sell them to Turkey, and now we're punishing Turkey for buying them from someone else?

Or are you just arguing that we're treating Turkey specially somehow and we'd be fine with France buying these weapons from Russia?

I'm just saying that we're inconsistent and unreliable. We've renigged on our NATO promises in recent years, and demanded our allies to spend more on their own defense. And now we're mad that they're spending more on their own defense.
You're painting this as a "US is bullying poor Europe issue". It's true that Trump has been an awful "ally" to Europe, but this particular issue is not related to that and therefore I think your putting this issue in that context is missing the key issues.
Britain buys their own missiles, the Eurofighter is a thing, France has their own planes. There are no problems with that and no one cares.

It's not about Turkey not buying American. If they made their own SAM missiles or didn't buy any at all no one would have cared. It's about not buying a weapon system from Russia that, by its nature, collects data and becomes better at tracking planes the more exposure it has to them and then expecting to have a top-tier US plane.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
It's not about Turkey not buying American. If they made their own SAM missiles or didn't buy any at all no one would have cared. It's about not buying a weapon system from Russia that, by its nature, collects data and becomes better at tracking planes the more exposure it has to them and then expecting to have a top-tier US plane.
I don't think Turkey is gonna enable the "send telemetry data to Putin to help make S400 better" feature.
Also, there are already S400s deployed in the region.
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,393
You know, at the end of the day you argue that you know better than the Turkish military.
I mean, you can argue about what Edrugan want to do politically, but I think it's pretty damn clear that the Turkish military doesn't want to give Putin root access to their army or whatever you think they'll get from those S400.
I don't think it makes sense, and I don't think that there is any evidence that what you think happens when someone buy a Russian air defense system actually happened in reality.
But who knows? maybe this time it will be different.

You're assuming the military had much to say on the matter. Spoilers: whoever is left after the post-coup attempt purge does what Erdogan tells them to. They wouldn't be there if they didn't, and this seems to be an Erdogan-driven purchase.

I gave you a quote from a NATO general explaining legitimate security concerns. You don't have to take my word for it.
 

Riboflavin

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
265
The US: Europe needs to take up their end of the bargain and start spending on their own defense.

Europe: ok. Let buy these missiles.

The US: No! Not like that. I meant pay US money.

You do know that European counties have their own defense contractors that they've used for decades without any problems, right?

It's almost like there is a difference between NATO counties sourcing their own weapons from themselves and someone dealing with Russia with the S-400.

Can you think who NATO's likely adversary is?
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,367
I don't think Turkey is gonna enable the "send telemetry data to Putin to help make S400 better" feature.
Also, there are already S400s deployed in the region.
Their purchase includes 5 years of Russian technical assistance, so Russian advisors and technicians would be on the base and working on the S-400s. I think it's naive to assume that the F-35's radar signatures woudl be at all safe with Russians working on S-400s right there for 5 years.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
The F-35 is crap so it's almost like Turkey isn't losing out on that one. But because it's crap you want Turkey to buy it
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Their purchase includes 5 years of Russian technical assistance, so Russian advisors and technicians would be on the base and working on the S-400s. I think it's naive to assume that the F-35's radar signatures woudl be at all safe with Russians working on S-400s right there for 5 years.
Funny how that wasn't a concern when the US flew F-35s over Syria.
Also, the S400 has a detection range of 600km, you know how many American planes fly withing 600km of Russian borders?

And again, how is it not a concern in countries like Poland who has Russian military equipment and is also buying F-35s?

(I can tell you how btw, it's because military forces know how compartmentalize. The people who work on the F-16s don't have access to all the F-35s most secret stuff, so you can be damn sure that Russian technicians are not gonna gain access to all of Turkey's secrets just because they're running training session on the system).
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,367
Funny how that wasn't a concern when the US flew F-35s over Syria.
Also, the S400 has a detection range of 600km, you know how many American planes fly withing 600km of Russian borders?

And again, how is it not a concern in countries like Poland who has Russian military equipment and is also buying F-35s?

(I can tell you how btw, it's because military forces know how compartmentalize. The people who work on the F-16s don't have access to all the F-35s most secret stuff, so you can be damn sure that Russian technicians are not gonna gain access to all of Turkey's secrets just because they're running training session on the system).
Multiple posters shared multiple credible sources with you, which you handwave away because they don't support your narrative, so I'm not sure what value there is in continuing the discussion with you. An unexpected passby of F-35s is not the same as having them operating out of bases right by Russian radar installations. If you were US or NATO would you trust Erdogan not to sell you out to the Russians? I sure wouldn't.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
The F-35 is crap so it's almost like Turkey isn't losing out on that one. But because it's crap you want Turkey to buy it

The US offered F-35's to both Turkey and India if they did not buy the S-400. And both countries opted for the S-400.

One of the issues with getting the F-35 is the lack of control these countries would have over these planes:

But the real killer is control: India will not have control over anything on this plane — not the weapons, not the integration of new weapons, not even upgrading the threat database for the electronic warfare systems to jam forcing India to share our most sensitive signals intelligence with the US. A few years back, Nato threatened Turkey with severe consequences for attempting to integrate a Chinese air defence system into its networked hub, ultimately forcing it to abandon the deal. For India, whose equipment is overwhelmingly Russian, the belief that the Americans will sell their crown jewel to interface with Russian equipment is laughable, especially in the wake of Russia's sophisticated hacking of US elections, and India's notoriously lax data hygiene and operational security.

 

Fairxchange

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,382
Obama weaponized the dollar, and Trump has continued to do the same.

There are only so many countries that you will sanction before the dollar loses its status as reserve currency. There are countries that are trying to limit how they trade, BRICS have been setting up a Yuan backed gold exchange settlement system, and the formation of INSTEX by the EU will be something that will allow countries to bypass the uS financial system if applied to a far larger scale outside the proposed Iran trade deal.
In Asia, there are more and more currency swap deals coming into play.

A day is honestly coming when countries will be free to trade with whoever they want.
Good post.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
Multiple posters shared multiple credible sources with you, which you handwave away because they don't support your narrative, so I'm not sure what value there is in continuing the discussion with you. An unexpected passby of F-35s is not the same as having them operating out of bases right by Russian radar installations. If you were US or NATO would you trust Erdogan not to sell you out to the Russians? I sure wouldn't.
I sure wouldn't trust Erdogan. But why should he trust that the US also has his interests?

People are overthinking this. More and more countries are simply doing what is in their best interest, or what the leaders think is in their best interest. The US is also doing what they think is in their best interest, and what is in their best interest is not always what is in another country's best interest. More often than not it is the opposite.

To the Germans who are trying to get off nuclear power they say, do not buy Russian gas, they even threatened to sanction companies building Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

To anyone that wants 5G tech, they say do not invest in Hauwei despite companies in the West being some ways behind when it comes to having any viable tech that can be monetized at a similar timeline.

To oil producers, they say sell in the dollar or we will wreck you with sanctions.

To India they have threatened to add tariffs on some products, demands that they open up their markets. To Turkey they imposed tariffs that brought down the Lira in an effort to strong arm them into not getting the S-400's.

What people do not understand is that we are no longer in that cold war era where the world was dominated by ideology. We are at an age where there are a lot of countries looking towards the East for openings in commerce in areas that have been dominated by US and the West. The ever improving markets in Asia offer a far greater opportunity for trade and with the US having been in so many wars over the decades, these countries have effectively invested more money into research and better products.

It is a battle for commerce in key areas like currency, tech and military defense spending. Big ticket items around which data (gold mine of our age) and outlandish military spending that guarantees aerial dominance is seen as key for anyone looking to dominate key areas in continents. It is for this very reason that you see many a proxy war in the middle east, tensions in south east asia. In the Eurozone you saw Germany bail out her own banks through the back door, and now the biggest bank has them teetering on the edge to a point where they might have to increase taxes to bail Deutsche Bank out.

It is for this very reason that you see the Chinese waking up in the morning and deciding what range their currency will trade against the dollar. Is it fair practice? Of course not, but it weathers their currency against speculation. To US, and companies elsewhere it means that they can keep their cost of manufacturing low and their goods competitive which s why you see so much manufacturing coming from there i.e. self interest.

No one is really looking to get anything if they are not going to have key areas of tech under their control. And the moment people stop seeing this as a NATO - Russia problem rather than a commercial one, then the better.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
South Korea, a staunch US ally, is co-developing a variant of the S400 together with the Russians. Involved are Samsung and Thales, a British company, without problems. So the American government's posturing is just another load of bullshit.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
South Korea, a staunch US ally, is co-developing a variant of the S400 together with the Russians. Involved are Samsung and Thales, a British company, without problems. So the American government's posturing is just another load of bullshit.
And they just started getting deliveries of the F-35. Man, some people in this thread are nowhere up to speed with what is happening in the world.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,367
South Korea, a staunch US ally, is co-developing a variant of the S400 together with the Russians. Involved are Samsung and Thales, a British company, without problems. So the American government's posturing is just another load of bullshit.
Licensing tech which is integrated into homegrown systems that are run by South Koreans is not the same as buying Russian systems turn key and having Russian advisors and technicians on base for 5 years. Also South Korea is much more trustworthy than Turkey.
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,393
I sure wouldn't trust Erdogan. But why should he trust that the US also has his interests?

People are overthinking this. More and more countries are simply doing what is in their best interest, or what the leaders think is in their best interest. The US is also doing what they think is in their best interest, and what is in their best interest is not always what is in another country's best interest. More often than not it is the opposite.

To the Germans who are trying to get off nuclear power they say, do not buy Russian gas, they even threatened to sanction companies building Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

To anyone that wants 5G tech, they say do not invest in Hauwei despite companies in the West being some ways behind when it comes to having any viable tech that can be monetized at a similar timeline.

To oil producers, they say sell in the dollar or we will wreck you with sanctions.

To India they have threatened to add tariffs on some products, demands that they open up their markets. To Turkey they imposed tariffs that brought down the Lira in an effort to strong arm them into not getting the S-400's.

What people do not understand is that we are no longer in that cold war era where the world was dominated by ideology. We are at an age where there are a lot of countries looking towards the East for openings in commerce in areas that have been dominated by US and the West. The ever improving markets in Asia offer a far greater opportunity for trade and with the US having been in so many wars over the decades, these countries have effectively invested more money into research and better products.

It is a battle for commerce in key areas like currency, tech and military defense spending. Big ticket items around which data (gold mine of our age) and outlandish military spending that guarantees aerial dominance is seen as key for anyone looking to dominate key areas in continents. It is for this very reason that you see many a proxy war in the middle east, tensions in south east asia. In the Eurozone you saw Germany bail out her own banks through the back door, and now the biggest bank has them teetering on the edge to a point where they might have to increase taxes to bail Deutsche Bank out.

It is for this very reason that you see the Chinese waking up in the morning and deciding what range their currency will trade against the dollar. Is it fair practice? Of course not, but it weathers their currency against speculation. To US, and companies elsewhere it means that they can keep their cost of manufacturing low and their goods competitive which s why you see so much manufacturing coming from there i.e. self interest.

No one is really looking to get anything if they are not going to have key areas of tech under their control. And the moment people stop seeing this as a NATO - Russia problem rather than a commercial one, then the better.

Cool theory... except here the US is acting against their own economic interests by kicking Turkey out of the F-35 program.
 

deflektor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
89
Good!

Other than Erdogan's meddlings in the middle east he is also trying to pull a south china sea on the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean. I know that this won't bother him much or force him to change his plans but there is no need to make it easier for him.
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,393
Do you know where Turkey lies? Its strategic value?

Yes, and you said:
...the moment people stop seeing this as a NATO - Russia problem rather than a commercial one, then the better.

Which sounded to me like you were glossing over other geopolitical factors for this purely economically-motivated framework. If commercial interests were the dominant factor, the US wouldn't have yanked Turkey out of the F-35 program, which not only damages US financial interests directly but further degrades US-Turkey relations, and therefore economic opportunity down the line. Here the US actions are clearly contrary to commercial motivations, but make sense in the context of NATO-Russia tensions.

Globally, yeah commercial/financial interests dominate. In this specific case, that's only one factor, and one that's getting overridden by others.

EDIT: And for Turkey, going against US wishes is also pretty costly. They lost the F-35, for which they were the sole source for many parts, but also risk US economic sanctions. Erdogan was gambling the US wouldn't respond at all, and is still hoping Trump doesn't enforce sanctions.
 
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Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,424
Fuck Putin, Trump and Erdogan. But this is really hilarious.

"Buy our rockets or we will ruin your economy"
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
Yes, and you said:


Which sounded to me like you were glossing over other geopolitical factors for this purely economically-motivated framework. If commercial interests were the dominant factor, the US wouldn't have yanked Turkey out of the F-35 program, which not only damages US financial interests directly but further degrades US-Turkey relations, and therefore economic opportunity down the line. Here the US actions are clearly contrary to commercial motivations, but make sense in the context of NATO-Russia tensions.

Globally, yeah commercial/financial interests dominate. In this specific case, that's only one factor, and one that's getting overridden by others.

EDIT: And for Turkey, going against US wishes is also pretty costly. They lost the F-35, for which they were the sole source for many parts, but also risk US economic sanctions. Erdogan was gambling the US wouldn't respond at all, and is still hoping Trump doesn't enforce sanctions.
Turkey wanted a missile defense system, and the US would not sell it to them. When they did, it came with so many conditions that it did not make any sense, and it came after Turkey had turned to the Russians for a different solution.

The US has messed with the Turkish Lira, collapsing it last year all in a bid to try and get them off this deal. It was Qatar that promised foreign investment that essentially stemmed the tide.

Also, nations are becoming more and more brave in the face of sanctions. India was also given the same warning that there would be no cooperation if they got the S-400's.

This world is fucked up because of the meddling of the West in all areas of the globe. The problems in the Middle East all stem from British, French and Israel invading Egypt in a bid to retake the Suez Canal, the US overthrow of Mossadegh and the bid to ensure that the monarchies in the region did not fall the same way the Shah fell to Khomeini. And these are things that they have not been able to solve either through sanctions, proxy wars like the Iran - Iraq war, or sanctions. If anything they seem to be getting far worse at it, and the region is among the most unstable in the world. This is something that has ramifications the world over when it comes to things like terror attacks. Also, everything the US does is to ensure that they remain relevant commercially and continue to exert influence in various spheres of the earth. I currently live in Africa, and even here we see the meddling of the West in elections where the is a lot of mineral wealth, or countries that have great strategic importance. It is a norm.

As I said in my first post on this topic, a day is coming when nations will be able to trade with whoever they want. That is something I really believe in.