Turkish strikes on Kurdish areas in Syria have already begun.

Landy828

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,379
Clemson, SC
So there's a definite possibility now that future "terrorist attacks" in the US and other places will be carried out by people that Trump created or allowed to escape Syria.

What an amazing achievement by our Idiot in Chief.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
So has Turkey. Also as far as I know PKK mostly targets military and police, civilians should be left alone of course.
I'm not denying Turkey did too, but if you're seeing PKK/YPG as freedom fighters (not necessarily the same for both), you need to hold them to an equal standard, that is, not bombing civilians.
 
Last edited:

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,056
What ever Trump feels like doing after being influenced by foreign governments over the phone.

He is beyond unfit.
ISIS "is going to be escaping to Europe" Yup. Insanity. We (the Americans) are royally fucking over the Kurds who fought, sacrificed, and died to staunch the festering wound that was Daesh. As a nation we are unmoored and beyond fucked. I'm so ashamed and sorry to/for the Kurds.

This asshole is pushing us on to a road that ends with our own annihilation. Yeah, most of the U.S. is still living lives of oblivious comfort and complacency. But this monster destroys everything he touches: his soulless craven family, his tinker toy casinos. It's been 3 years, and I still can't believe we gave this monster the keys to the Oval Office.
 

marc^o^

Member
Oct 26, 2017
871
Paris, France
With that speech Trump can ONLY be seen by us europeans as an enemy. Terrorism is our nightmare. He just justified terrorists coming en masse to europe, as the consequence of an unfair deal. He opened this evil pandora box, without letting any european alternative to take shape. In other times this betrayal towards Europe would have been felt like a war declaration. In 2019 we will just react as understanding USA are a new threat, an enemy that can’t be trusted and threatens our economy and our lives.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
So we should let them die then?
No, obviously. This will kill civilians and empower Daesh, and it will destabilize the region even further, and I'm also fairly sure Turkey's express goal of moving Syrian refugees there to change its demographic makeup is illegal. I don't trust Turkey to keep to its promise of only attacking terrorists, either.

But PKK also being a terrorist organization does complicate things and holds significance.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
7,376
canada
I want to add that there was a 2 year ceasefire with the PKK that Erdogan ended to drum up support. Turkey is the aggressor nation in this war. There is a lot of history behind why the PKK came about. How many Kurds died just to attain the minority rights they desired before the PKK?

This isnt in defense of the PKK's attacks, there is no defense for war, but there is a lot of history as to why this war started and why it continues.
 

nu_faust

Member
Oct 27, 2017
124
Philly <=> İstanbul
So? Kurds have every fucking right to fight for independence.
so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?

Also get out with this PKK only targets military targets shit. PKK murdered tourists, civil workers, pro-government Kurds, kids, burned forests, bombed factories all that dark shit that comes with their armed revolutionary revolution, all justified in the name of "independence". Just last week Kurdish mothers were protesting PKK in the biggest Kurdish city saying stop brainwashing our kids and playing wargames with our kids' blood but that doesn't fit well with this innocent freedom fighters who beat ISIS narrative right?

Also we all know what happened to last time when US actively trained armed supported freedom fighters to fight a noble cause against our evil enemies right? They were called Mujahadeen right, no no then they changed their name to Taliban, but no Iast I heard they all gathered around northern Iraq & Syria started calling themselves ISIS or something. But these Kurdish dudes beat those ISIS dudes so we are all good here.
 

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,919
the Netherlands
The extreme, severe bla bla bla etc. sanctions promised by Graham and Van Hollen are extremely minor and are obviously just to win some goodwill among voters against what Trump is doing, wont have any effect
 

BarcaTheGreat

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
849
so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?

Also get out with this PKK only targets military targets shit. PKK murdered tourists, civil workers, pro-government Kurds, kids, burned forests, bombed factories all that dark shit that comes with their armed revolutionary revolution, all justified in the name of "independence". Just last week Kurdish mothers were protesting PKK in the biggest Kurdish city saying stop brainwashing our kids and playing wargames with our kids' blood but that doesn't fit well with this innocent freedom fighters who beat ISIS narrative right?

Also we all know what happened to last time when US actively trained armed supported freedom fighters to fight a noble cause against our evil enemies right? They were called Mujahadeen right, no no then they changed their name to Taliban, but no Iast I heard they all gathered around northern Iraq & Syria started calling themselves ISIS or something. But these Kurdish dudes beat those ISIS dudes so we are all good here.
Finally, an Edrogan apologist.



I missed the pigeon guy so welcome to have you back.... /s
 

Personae

Member
Oct 29, 2017
78
So? Kurds have every fucking right to fight for independence.
Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done while I don't. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.
Turkey are pro ISIS

They will free them to do their dirty work for them
Dude I'm Turkish, you can't find any sane person that supports them. People won't let something like that to happen. But what I know.
 
Last edited:
Oct 30, 2017
1,378
No, obviously. This will kill civilians and empower Daesh, and it will destabilize the region even further, and I'm also fairly sure Turkey's express goal of moving Syrian refugees there to change its demographic makeup is illegal.

But PKK also being a terrorist organization does complicate things.
One people's terrorists are another's freedom fighters. Plus, the definition of terrorist is so slippery that it's basically useless. Any Palestinian group that forms a government is going to be labeled as terrorists short of them totally bowing down to every single demand of the Israeli government.

I don't know the particulars of the PKK but I would be careful of taking any assessment by government entities at face value.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
I want to add that there was a 2 year ceasefire with the PKK that Erdogan ended to drum up support. Turkey is the aggressor nation in this war. There is a lot of history behind why the PKK came about. How many Kurds died just to attain the minority rights they desired before the PKK?

This isnt in defense of the PKK's attacks, there is no defense for war, but there is a lot of history as to why this war started and why it continues.
The ceasefire was there because Erdoğan wanted the Kurdish vote, too.

The extreme, severe bla bla bla etc. sanctions promised by Graham and Van Hollen are extremely minor and are obviously just to win some goodwill among voters against what Trump is doing, wont have any effect
The only significant effect this will have is riling up Erdoğan's base and embolden their "It's Turkey against the West/ Turkey against the world" narrative.

One people's terrorists are another's freedom fighters. Plus, the definition of terrorist is so slippery that it's basically useless. Any Palestinian group that forms a government is going to be labeled as terrorists short of them totally bowing down to every single demand of the Israeli government.
I don't know the particulars of the PKK but I would be careful of taking any assessment by government entities at face value.
I'm very conflicted about what I think of this operation, but I regard the PKK as a terrorist organization *because they have bombed civilians*. That said, I recognize that the "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" effect is a colossal part of the Turkish narrative.

It's also certainly a monster of Turkey's own making.
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,984
so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?

Also get out with this PKK only targets military targets shit. PKK murdered tourists, civil workers, pro-government Kurds, kids, burned forests, bombed factories all that dark shit that comes with their armed revolutionary revolution, all justified in the name of "independence". Just last week Kurdish mothers were protesting PKK in the biggest Kurdish city saying stop brainwashing our kids and playing wargames with our kids' blood but that doesn't fit well with this innocent freedom fighters who beat ISIS narrative right?

Also we all know what happened to last time when US actively trained armed supported freedom fighters to fight a noble cause against our evil enemies right? They were called Mujahadeen right, no no then they changed their name to Taliban, but no Iast I heard they all gathered around northern Iraq & Syria started calling themselves ISIS or something. But these Kurdish dudes beat those ISIS dudes so we are all good here.
Sure the PKK has done some heinous shit, but when was the last time they killed civilians?

Also the Kurds are not fundamentalist muslims, they are secular unlike Erdogan wants Turkey to be. Comparing YPG or even PKK to isis is fucking asinine.
 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,394
The extreme, severe bla bla bla etc. sanctions promised by Graham and Van Hollen are extremely minor and are obviously just to win some goodwill among voters against what Trump is doing, wont have any effect
The legislation seizes assets of Turkish leaders, bars military sales, bans investment in the energy sector, and has other minor provisions. Those are substantial sanction.
 

Shevek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
615
Cape Town, South Africa
They've bombed civilians.
Civilians have not been directly targeted.

You do understand that in any situation in which one group of historically marginalised people are in direct conflict with their oppressor, absolutely no side is going to emerge without casualties, right?

Is your logic that Turkey's invasion and slaughter of these people is justified because civilians have died? What of the countless Kurdish civilians who have been direct targets by the Turkish military?
 

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,919
the Netherlands
The legislation seizes assets of Turkish leaders, bars military sales, bans investment in the energy sector, and has other minor provisions. Those are substantial sanction.
These people are so loaded they don't give a shit about stuff like that, and Turkey has already shown they'll just switch to Russian military equipment when needed. The entire Turkish economy should be hit hard.
 

nu_faust

Member
Oct 27, 2017
124
Philly <=> İstanbul
Finally, an Edrogan apologist.
I missed the pigeon guy so welcome to have you back.... /s
Thank you for your exemplary contribution to the thread dude, really classy post. Actually I'm a liberal, secular Turkish American dude who thinks Erdogan and Trump are the worst things that happened to both republics but I guess going ad hominem and name calling is easer than realising the issue at hand needs a deeper understanding.
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,984
Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.
Kurds are not a single entity, you'll have pro independence Kurds and those who don't want it. Just like there are some Palestinians who don't want their own nation, I'm guessing both are a tiny minority.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,378
These people are so loaded they don't give a shit about stuff like that, and Turkey has already shown they'll just switch to Russian military equipment when needed. The entire Turkish economy should be hit hard.
Wonder if this is actually part of the reason. His handlers knew that Congress would have to do something and this conveniently helps Papa Putin and his friends.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,321
Thank you for your exemplary contribution to the thread dude, really classy post. Actually I'm a liberal, secular Turkish American dude who thinks Erdogan and Trump are the worst things that happened to both republics but I guess going ad hominem and name calling is easer than realising the issue at hand needs a deeper understanding.
So what's your takeaway from all this?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,594
so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?
My dude, Turkey is working with Assad, the largest terrorist of the conflict. Get the fuck out with the gaslighting. Kurdish fighters have been the best and most effective force in fighting ISIS. When the Iraqi army broke ranks and fled, when Turkey stopped at their border, when Assad and Russia were only interested in non-aggression Kurdish fighters pushed ISIS back. They absolutely earned their support in blood and the right to negotiate autonomy or independence
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
Civilians have not been directly targeted.

You do understand that in any situation in which one group of historically marginalised people are in direct conflict with their oppressor, absolutely no side is going to emerge without casualties, right?

Is your logic that Turkey's invasion and slaughter of these people is justified because civilians have died? What of the countless Kurdish civilians who have been direct targets by the Turkish military?
My logic is that just like it's wrong to be dismissing Turkey's murder of Kurdish civilians (as "casualties"), it's wrong to be dismissing the PKK's murder of Turkish civilians.

My general stance is that Turkey is doing nothing more than adding fuel to the fire by engaging further in this conflict, its oppression of the Kurds led to this and any resolution - besides drawing all Kurds in Turkey to war- can only be achieved through giving the Kurds the freedoms they deserve.
 

NewDust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,409
Civilians have not been directly targeted.

You do understand that in any situation in which one group of historically marginalised people are in direct conflict with their oppressor, absolutely no side is going to emerge without casualties, right?

Is your logic that Turkey's invasion and slaughter of these people is justified because civilians have died? What of the countless Kurdish civilians who have been direct targets by the Turkish military?
Kurds just have to roll over and die... If it weren't for the PKK there wouldn't be any Turkish Kurds left, due to systemic massacring and assimilation.

And no I do not condone civilian casualties, or acts of terrorism.
 

Cugel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,545
Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done while I don't. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.

Dude I'm Turkish, you can't find any sane person that supports them. People won't let something like that to happen. But what I know.
Except the government?
 

NewDust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,409
Not really, Srebrenicza was genocide against Muslims
You're right. And obviously there are more differences, one being the populace has at least a chance to flee. It's just that my mind immediately went there when an allied organization was denied air support and are basically being handed over to the agressors by a western force.
 

Personae

Member
Oct 29, 2017
78
Except the government?
I'm actually busy with my thesis so couldn't follow much news or read about it last 2 years. I mean in word they don't support it and can't support it. But people here, I'm guessing, implies some shady actions which I should be more informed to answer.
Kurds are not a single entity, you'll have pro independence Kurds and those who don't want it. Just like there are some Palestinians who don't want their own nation, I'm guessing both are a tiny minority.
I actually don't know about that if it's tiny minority because there isn't much research about it, at least I couldn't find it. (Didn't mean any wiki page, I mean scientific papers)
 
Last edited:

TheXbox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
Is there any chance this impels Republican lawmakers to remove him from office? Retreating from Syria and capitulating to Turkey must be odious to neocons. I'm not sure how much this matters relative to the sanctity of their party.
 

TheXbox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
This isn't the last straw for them to go that far
I agree with you, just curious if others felt differently. I'm not really convinced there is a "last straw." He can't take a phone call without starting a scandal and he's publicly dragged many (most?) Congressmen. It seems nothing he says or does is indefensible.
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,133
Montreal
Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done while I don't. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.

Dude I'm Turkish, you can't find any sane person that supports them. People won't let something like that to happen. But what I know.
okay, I will reword my statement,
the Erdogan government enabled and made business transactions with ISIS

there
 

carlosrso

Member
Oct 27, 2017
126
Ipatinga, Brazil
Well those sanctions are quite harsh, specially the s400 part. This may remove Turkey from the f35 program. Maybe this will dissuade Erdogan to push further.