Turkish strikes on Kurdish areas in Syria have already begun.

nu_faust

Member
Oct 27, 2017
124
Philly <=> İstanbul
So what's your takeaway from all this?
First igniting the Syrian civil was done by a coalition of US / EU/ Saudi / Turkey. People gotta realize US & Turkey was in this together in the beginning, only when shit hit the fan everyone started to pursue their own often conflicting interest. The only winners in this as of now are Russia, Iran and Israel. Turkey already lost big time, now what it's trying to do is cut its losses: stop the terrorist organization it has been fighting for the past 30 years to turn to founders of a neighbor state and get rid of 3.6 million refugees that it's unable to keep.

The idea in the beginning was to topple Assad rand his Shia minority ruling elite real quick and install a pro western (read anti-Iran, anti-Russian here) moderate conservative Sunni government as a part of the "greater middle east" project and "develop" spoils but it failed miserably. Erdogan & his sectarian, delusional foreign policy couldn't deliver anything to anyone, Obama refused to put boots on the ground and get in to another nation building adventure, Russia & Iran seen their opportunity & played their cards perfectly, US got pissed of and became allies with the only forces (YPG/SDF) that could deliver solid results(control areas where natural resources are). Now it's a bloody mess and there are no easy answers.

The thing is as capable and useful as they were against ISIS, asking Turkey to tolerate its 30 year old enemy PKK/YPG, an terrorist organisation to turn to border state is just crazy imho but shockingly that's what a lot of people in the state department & pentagon are saying. Ok I say good luck but I assure you that won't bring anyone any peace. %99 of 70 millon Turks, Nato's 2nd biggest army, Syria (Assad), Iraq and Iran won't stand for that but you wanna try go ahead.

My dream for the Kurdish question in Turkey would be PKK laying down arms and declaring the the days for politics through violence are over (ala FARC in Colombia or PLO in Palestine.) Violence and killing sadly only strengthen militarist, facists, racists and extremists on the both side and creates a self feeding loop of destruction.

For Syria everyone (including YPG) should be on the table, every group should lay down their arms, every player US / Russia / Turkey / Iran actually agree to stop the war of proxies but sadly no one (as can be seen int he example of old allies Turkey & US) really trusts each other and everyone is so eager to make the other pay no matter how short sighted that viewpoint might be.
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
601
Trump is an idiot with the Kurds didn't help in WWII thing. They were promised their own country 20 years earlier after WWI when they helped defeat the Ottoman Empire. They also rose up against Saddam at our behest, only to be bombed with chemical weapons. Then they literally helped us defeat ISIS in Syria, which was literally the embodiment of every right wing nightmare scenario regarding Islamic extremism, i.e. Jihadis forming an actual Caliphate, or attempting to, while imposing draconian religious laws and literally being evil, i.e. burning people alive, beheading them, etc. Trump is turning a historical ally in the Middle East into an enemy. The Kurds have no reason to trust us, despite being the best fighters and the most progressive/Democratic of the factions in Syria/the Middle East. What's to stop this from radicalizing Kurds into anti-American combatants themselves? Like why are so good at creating enemies when none existed before? God, I feel bad for the Kurds. They deserve so much better.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,521
My dream for the Kurdish question in Turkey would be PKK laying down arms and declaring the the days for politics through violence are over (ala FARC in Colombia or PLO in Palestine.) Violence and killing sadly only strengthen militarist, facists, racists and extremists on the both side and creates a self feeding loop of destruction.
Bruh, you really gonna call it the Kurdish question? Just leaving aside the debate about the YPG and PKK being the same, or invalidating the Kurdish pursuit of an autonomous nation, that is... something. Particularly when your takeaway is "I think the minority group without any power should lay down arms in the face of the giant group with a huge military."
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,358
Terana
real talk, this is up there with the very worst of trump's dumbassery. this is enraging and a direct signal that he must be disposed of immediately before anyone else gets hurt. the dude will end up starting world war 3 trying to save his own ass
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,321
First igniting the Syrian civil was done by a coalition of US / EU/ Saudi / Turkey. People gotta realize US & Turkey was in this together in the beginning, only when shit hit the fan everyone started to pursue their own often conflicting interest. The only winners in this as of now are Russia, Iran and Israel. Turkey already lost big time, now what it's trying to do is cut its losses: stop the terrorist organization it has been fighting for the past 30 years to turn to founders of a neighbor state and get rid of 3.6 million refugees that it's unable to keep.

The idea in the beginning was to topple Assad rand his Shia minority ruling elite real quick and install a pro western (read anti-Iran, anti-Russian here) moderate conservative Sunni government as a part of the "greater middle east" project and "develop" spoils but it failed miserably. Erdogan & his sectarian, delusional foreign policy couldn't deliver anything to anyone, Obama refused to put boots on the ground and get in to another nation building adventure, Russia & Iran seen their opportunity & played their cards perfectly, US got pissed of and became allies with the only forces (YPG/SDF) that could deliver solid results(control areas where natural resources are). Now it's a bloody mess and there are no easy answers.

The thing is as capable and useful as they were against ISIS, asking Turkey to tolerate its 30 year old enemy PKK/YPG, an terrorist organisation to turn to border state is just crazy imho but shockingly that's what a lot of people in the state department & pentagon are saying. Ok I say good luck but I assure you that won't bring anyone any peace. %99 of 70 millon Turks, Nato's 2nd biggest army, Syria (Assad), Iraq and Iran won't stand for that but you wanna try go ahead.

My dream for the Kurdish question in Turkey would be PKK laying down arms and declaring the the days for politics through violence are over (ala FARC in Colombia or PLO in Palestine.) Violence and killing sadly only strengthen militarist, facists, racists and extremists on the both side and creates a self feeding loop of destruction.

For Syria everyone (including YPG) should be on the table, every group should lay down their arms, every player US / Russia / Turkey / Iran actually agree to stop the war of proxies but sadly no one (as can be seen int he example of old allies Turkey & US) really trusts each other and everyone is so eager to make the other pay no matter how short sighted that viewpoint might be.
Hm. I see.
 

Soph

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
780
ISIS prisoners will just flee into Europe, let the Kurds be wiped out.

Just when I thought Trump couldn't get any worse.. he actually got worse.

I blame every single American citizen for sitting on their ass leaving a maggot like him lead the "free" world.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,376
canada
First igniting the Syrian civil was done by a coalition of US / EU/ Saudi / Turkey. People gotta realize US & Turkey was in this together in the beginning, only when shit hit the fan everyone started to pursue their own often conflicting interest. The only winners in this as of now are Russia, Iran and Israel. Turkey already lost big time, now what it's trying to do is cut its losses: stop the terrorist organization it has been fighting for the past 30 years to turn to founders of a neighbor state and get rid of 3.6 million refugees that it's unable to keep.

The idea in the beginning was to topple Assad rand his Shia minority ruling elite real quick and install a pro western (read anti-Iran, anti-Russian here) moderate conservative Sunni government as a part of the "greater middle east" project and "develop" spoils but it failed miserably. Erdogan & his sectarian, delusional foreign policy couldn't deliver anything to anyone, Obama refused to put boots on the ground and get in to another nation building adventure, Russia & Iran seen their opportunity & played their cards perfectly, US got pissed of and became allies with the only forces (YPG/SDF) that could deliver solid results(control areas where natural resources are). Now it's a bloody mess and there are no easy answers.

The thing is as capable and useful as they were against ISIS, asking Turkey to tolerate its 30 year old enemy PKK/YPG, an terrorist organisation to turn to border state is just crazy imho but shockingly that's what a lot of people in the state department & pentagon are saying. Ok I say good luck but I assure you that won't bring anyone any peace. %99 of 70 millon Turks, Nato's 2nd biggest army, Syria (Assad), Iraq and Iran won't stand for that but you wanna try go ahead.

My dream for the Kurdish question in Turkey would be PKK laying down arms and declaring the the days for politics through violence are over (ala FARC in Colombia or PLO in Palestine.) Violence and killing sadly only strengthen militarist, facists, racists and extremists on the both side and creates a self feeding loop of destruction.

For Syria everyone (including YPG) should be on the table, every group should lay down their arms, every player US / Russia / Turkey / Iran actually agree to stop the war of proxies but sadly no one (as can be seen int he example of old allies Turkey & US) really trusts each other and everyone is so eager to make the other pay no matter how short sighted that viewpoint might be.
There is a Kurdish rights party in Turkey that is roadblocked at every turn. Every attempt at peace with the PKK has failed because the Turks will not compromise their stupid founding beliefs.

Diplomacy has not worked and will not work so long as Erdogan is in power at the very least. In the mean time, the only option is war.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
There is a Kurdish rights party in Turkey that is roadblocked at every turn. Every attempt at peace with the PKK has failed because the Turks will not compromise their stupid founding beliefs.

Diplomacy has not worked and will not work so long as Erdogan is in power at the very least. In the mean time, the only option is war.
Probably true, and I'll add that one reason that party's roadblocked at every turn is because everyone sees them as PKK sympathizers (or a front for them).
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,834
First igniting the Syrian civil was done by a coalition of US / EU/ Saudi / Turkey. People gotta realize US & Turkey was in this together in the beginning, only when shit hit the fan everyone started to pursue their own often conflicting interest. The only winners in this as of now are Russia, Iran and Israel. Turkey already lost big time, now what it's trying to do is cut its losses: stop the terrorist organization it has been fighting for the past 30 years to turn to founders of a neighbor state and get rid of 3.6 million refugees that it's unable to keep.

The idea in the beginning was to topple Assad rand his Shia minority ruling elite real quick and install a pro western (read anti-Iran, anti-Russian here) moderate conservative Sunni government as a part of the "greater middle east" project and "develop" spoils but it failed miserably. Erdogan & his sectarian, delusional foreign policy couldn't deliver anything to anyone, Obama refused to put boots on the ground and get in to another nation building adventure, Russia & Iran seen their opportunity & played their cards perfectly, US got pissed of and became allies with the only forces (YPG/SDF) that could deliver solid results(control areas where natural resources are). Now it's a bloody mess and there are no easy answers.

The thing is as capable and useful as they were against ISIS, asking Turkey to tolerate its 30 year old enemy PKK/YPG, an terrorist organisation to turn to border state is just crazy imho but shockingly that's what a lot of people in the state department & pentagon are saying. Ok I say good luck but I assure you that won't bring anyone any peace. %99 of 70 millon Turks, Nato's 2nd biggest army, Syria (Assad), Iraq and Iran won't stand for that but you wanna try go ahead.

My dream for the Kurdish question in Turkey would be PKK laying down arms and declaring the the days for politics through violence are over (ala FARC in Colombia or PLO in Palestine.) Violence and killing sadly only strengthen militarist, facists, racists and extremists on the both side and creates a self feeding loop of destruction.

For Syria everyone (including YPG) should be on the table, every group should lay down their arms, every player US / Russia / Turkey / Iran actually agree to stop the war of proxies but sadly no one (as can be seen int he example of old allies Turkey & US) really trusts each other and everyone is so eager to make the other pay no matter how short sighted that viewpoint might be.
You're really letting assad off if you want to blame the while Syrian civil war on the US. This started with Syrian citizen protesting against assad. ISIS took advantage of the conflict. Turkey let them pass into Syria. Obama was criticized for not getting involved because no one wanted another us invasion. That's why we ended up relying on airstrikes and the kurds as a ground force. Assad was getting pushed back until Russia provided him backup which allowed him to retake territory that was previously captured. Assad literally has no reason to lay down arms as long as he has backing of Russia and Iran.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
Civilians have not been directly targeted.

You do understand that in any situation in which one group of historically marginalised people are in direct conflict with their oppressor, absolutely no side is going to emerge without casualties, right?

Is your logic that Turkey's invasion and slaughter of these people is justified because civilians have died? What of the countless Kurdish civilians who have been direct targets by the Turkish military?
Coming back to this, "Civilians have not been directly targeted" here is rather disturbing. You could say the same thing about Turkey, that they were/are firstly targeting armed insurgents, but I think we agree that that comparison wouldn't hold water.

No effort has been made, whatsoever, to avoid civilian casualties; PKK bombings have occurred in places where civilians have been harmed, they've very much killed civilians and used suicide bombers. Last year, a PKK mine killed a baby (the son of a soldier that was traveling with his family).

I'm not saying the Turkish assault is justified (the intent of ethnic cleansing is more than enough reason for this to be an international crisis). I'm not saying that it's on the same caliber with the violence of Turkish forces.

That doesn't change the fact that PKK (justified in its violent separatism or not, affiliated with the YPG or not) is a faction with no regard for human/civilian life.
 

holygeesus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,200
Coming back to this, "Civilians have not been directly targeted" here is rather disturbing. You could say the same thing about Turkey, that they were/are firstly targeting armed insurgents, but I think we agree that that comparison wouldn't hold water.

No effort has been made, whatsoever, to avoid civilian casualties; PKK bombings have occurred in places where civilians have been harmed, they've very much killed civilians and used suicide bombers. Last year, a PKK mine killed a baby (the son of a soldier that was traveling with his family).

I'm not saying the Turkish assault is justified (the intent of ethnic cleansing is more than enough reason for this to be an international crisis). I'm not saying that it's on the same caliber with the violence of Turkish forces.

That doesn't change the fact that PKK (justified in its violent separatism or not, affiliated with the YPG or not) is a faction with no regard for human/civilian life.
You could apply that criteria to at least the last 3 USA presidential offices. Bush, terrorist?, Obama?
 

holygeesus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,200
I don't know what this is supposed to mean but I can absolutely call Bush and Obama not exactly upstanding folks
You claimed that causing civilian deaths is a requisite for being labeled a terrorist organisation. If that is the necessary criteria, then the USA is a 'bigger' terrorist threat than any of the groups being attacked by Turkey right now in Syria.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
You claimed that causing civilian deaths is a requisite for being labeled a terrorist organisation. If that is the necessary criteria, then the USA is a 'bigger' terrorist threat than any of the groups being attacked by Turkey right now in Syria.
I mean if we got down to it you probably could claim that, yeah.
 

Maeros

Member
Dec 21, 2017
56
so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?

Also get out with this PKK only targets military targets shit. PKK murdered tourists, civil workers, pro-government Kurds, kids, burned forests, bombed factories all that dark shit that comes with their armed revolutionary revolution, all justified in the name of "independence". Just last week Kurdish mothers were protesting PKK in the biggest Kurdish city saying stop brainwashing our kids and playing wargames with our kids' blood but that doesn't fit well with this innocent freedom fighters who beat ISIS narrative right?

Also we all know what happened to last time when US actively trained armed supported freedom fighters to fight a noble cause against our evil enemies right? They were called Mujahadeen right, no no then they changed their name to Taliban, but no Iast I heard they all gathered around northern Iraq & Syria started calling themselves ISIS or something. But these Kurdish dudes beat those ISIS dudes so we are all good here.
All im going to say is that the Kurds have every right to live in northern Syria. They have lived there for more then 900 years in large numbers.
 

Funyarinpa

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,690
As a kurd its troubling to see how much these stupid founding beliefs in a monolithic Turkey continue to have blood shed.
The sad thing is, as a Turk, I can see where that comes from. Turkey is a country founded upon trauma- it is a common Turkish saying/anecdote/legend? that during the years of the Turkish War of Independence, some high schools did not have graduating classes because all of their students went off to war and never returned. It took an anti-colonialist war waged by the people and not a previously organized army (ironic for the descendants of a colonialist empire) for Turkey to gain its independence. Now every clump of Earth is seen as won with the blood of a Turk but nobody who doesn't conform to that idea(l) has any chance at fair treatment.

Instead of acknowledging it but lamenting its loss, Turkey decided to glorify every aspect of its independence process, and now it does not know to mourn anything about a war that teenagers had to die for.

Talk about rights for an oppressed (even after independence) demographic and that repressed trauma flares up instead of the slightest due consideration. Add oppression-fueled terrorism on top and you get modern Turkey... It's numbing to think about.

It's "I implore you, I ask you" instead of "you may", but besides that this is a chilling and accurate translation. He also says "take no prisoners, we shan't feed these (pejorative I don't know how to translate)".
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,376
canada
The sad thing is, as a Turk, I can see where that comes from. Turkey is a country founded upon trauma- it is a common Turkish saying/anecdote/legend? that during the years of the Turkish War of Independence, some high schools did not have graduating classes because all of their students went off to war and never returned. It took an anti-colonialist war waged by the people and not a previously organized army (ironic for the descendants of a colonialist empire) for Turkey to gain its independence. Now every clump of Earth is seen as won with the blood of a Turk but nobody who doesn't conform to that idea(l) has any chance at fair treatment.

Instead of acknowledging it but lamenting its loss, Turkey decided to glorify every aspect of its independence process, and now it does not know to mourn anything about a war that teenagers had to die for.

Talk about rights for an oppressed (even after independence) demographic and that repressed trauma flares up instead of the slightest due consideration. Add oppression-fueled terrorism on top and you get modern Turkey... It's numbing to think about.


It's "I implore you, I ask you" instead of "you may", but besides that this is a chilling and accurate translation. He also says "take no prisoners, we shan't feed these (pejorative I don't know how to translate)".
I havent read this take on Turkeys foundation before, thankyou. Its been a few years since Ive studied Turkish history and I need to reread a lot and read some more outside academia.
 

Cation

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,570
Here is the harsh truth

Trump is gonna die, the gop will lose. But their effects will last generations. The Kurds will never forget today. Their kids who will grow up without their parents, will grow to hate the US. And thereby perpetuating the cycle of hate and terrorism.

Trump just did worse than anything Regan was capable of. He deserves to be hanged.
 

Shevek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
615
Cape Town, South Africa
I've felt sick and overcome with grief since this news broke, and it's no better this morning. This is heartbreaking

Here is the harsh truth

Trump is gonna die, the gop will lose. But their effects will last generations. The Kurds will never forget today. Their kids who will grow up without their parents, will grow to hate the US. And thereby perpetuating the cycle of hate and terrorism.

Trump just did worse than anything Regan was capable of. He deserves to be hanged.
Exactly
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,834
Are we back to this anti-imperialist tripe.

Always love when westerners become authoritative voices on what really happened in Syria ground zero.
It's easy to blame the west for every problem in the middle east. The war started with massive protest from the syrian people. Assad tried to crackdown on this in a brutal way and things spiraled out of control.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,735
It's easy to blame the west for every problem in the middle east. The war started with massive protest from the syrian people. Assad tried to crackdown on this in a brutal way and things spiraled out of control.
Yes, the west didn't start it, but then the west armed groups that weren't exactly pro democracy but were anti assad and flooded the country with weapons that many times ended in the hands of Al Qaeda or ISIS. The Syrian Civil War kept on going because Russia and Iran in one side and The West, saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey on the other, kept propping up the actors on the ground.
 

Solace

Member
Oct 29, 2017
945
How a single liddle sad excuse of a man can cause so much pain and suffering across the whole world is mind boggling.