Remember that thread where we discussed which was worse - Bush or Trump?
Hmmm.
I'm not denying Turkey did too, but if you're seeing PKK/YPG as freedom fighters (not necessarily the same for both), you need to hold them to an equal standard, that is, not bombing civilians.So has Turkey. Also as far as I know PKK mostly targets military and police, civilians should be left alone of course.
What ever Trump feels like doing after being influenced by foreign governments over the phone.
He is beyond unfit.
So we should let them die then?I'm not denying Turkey did too, but if you're seeing PKK/YPG as freedom fighters (not necessarily the same for both), you need to hold them to an equal standard, that is, not bombing civilians.
No, obviously. This will kill civilians and empower Daesh, and it will destabilize the region even further, and I'm also fairly sure Turkey's express goal of moving Syrian refugees there to change its demographic makeup is illegal. I don't trust Turkey to keep to its promise of only attacking terrorists, either.
so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?
Finally, an Edrogan apologist.so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?
Also get out with this PKK only targets military targets shit. PKK murdered tourists, civil workers, pro-government Kurds, kids, burned forests, bombed factories all that dark shit that comes with their armed revolutionary revolution, all justified in the name of "independence". Just last week Kurdish mothers were protesting PKK in the biggest Kurdish city saying stop brainwashing our kids and playing wargames with our kids' blood but that doesn't fit well with this innocent freedom fighters who beat ISIS narrative right?
Also we all know what happened to last time when US actively trained armed supported freedom fighters to fight a noble cause against our evil enemies right? They were called Mujahadeen right, no no then they changed their name to Taliban, but no Iast I heard they all gathered around northern Iraq & Syria started calling themselves ISIS or something. But these Kurdish dudes beat those ISIS dudes so we are all good here.
Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done while I don't. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Dude I'm Turkish, you can't find any sane person that supports them. People won't let something like that to happen. But what I know.Turkey are pro ISIS
They will free them to do their dirty work for them
No, obviously. This will kill civilians and empower Daesh, and it will destabilize the region even further, and I'm also fairly sure Turkey's express goal of moving Syrian refugees there to change its demographic makeup is illegal.
But PKK also being a terrorist organization does complicate things.
The ceasefire was there because Erdoğan wanted the Kurdish vote, too.I want to add that there was a 2 year ceasefire with the PKK that Erdogan ended to drum up support. Turkey is the aggressor nation in this war. There is a lot of history behind why the PKK came about. How many Kurds died just to attain the minority rights they desired before the PKK?
This isnt in defense of the PKK's attacks, there is no defense for war, but there is a lot of history as to why this war started and why it continues.
The extreme, severe bla bla bla etc. sanctions promised by Graham and Van Hollen are extremely minor and are obviously just to win some goodwill among voters against what Trump is doing, wont have any effect
I'm very conflicted about what I think of this operation, but I regard the PKK as a terrorist organization *because they have bombed civilians*. That said, I recognize that the "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" effect is a colossal part of the Turkish narrative.One people's terrorists are another's freedom fighters. Plus, the definition of terrorist is so slippery that it's basically useless. Any Palestinian group that forms a government is going to be labeled as terrorists short of them totally bowing down to every single demand of the Israeli government.
I don't know the particulars of the PKK but I would be careful of taking any assessment by government entities at face value.
Sure the PKK has done some heinous shit, but when was the last time they killed civilians?so you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?
Also get out with this PKK only targets military targets shit. PKK murdered tourists, civil workers, pro-government Kurds, kids, burned forests, bombed factories all that dark shit that comes with their armed revolutionary revolution, all justified in the name of "independence". Just last week Kurdish mothers were protesting PKK in the biggest Kurdish city saying stop brainwashing our kids and playing wargames with our kids' blood but that doesn't fit well with this innocent freedom fighters who beat ISIS narrative right?
Also we all know what happened to last time when US actively trained armed supported freedom fighters to fight a noble cause against our evil enemies right? They were called Mujahadeen right, no no then they changed their name to Taliban, but no Iast I heard they all gathered around northern Iraq & Syria started calling themselves ISIS or something. But these Kurdish dudes beat those ISIS dudes so we are all good here.
The extreme, severe bla bla bla etc. sanctions promised by Graham and Van Hollen are extremely minor and are obviously just to win some goodwill among voters against what Trump is doing, wont have any effect
These people are so loaded they don't give a shit about stuff like that, and Turkey has already shown they'll just switch to Russian military equipment when needed. The entire Turkish economy should be hit hard.The legislation seizes assets of Turkish leaders, bars military sales, bans investment in the energy sector, and has other minor provisions. Those are substantial sanction.
Thank you for your exemplary contribution to the thread dude, really classy post. Actually I'm a liberal, secular Turkish American dude who thinks Erdogan and Trump are the worst things that happened to both republics but I guess going ad hominem and name calling is easer than realising the issue at hand needs a deeper understanding.Finally, an Edrogan apologist.
I missed the pigeon guy so welcome to have you back.... /s
Kurds are not a single entity, you'll have pro independence Kurds and those who don't want it. Just like there are some Palestinians who don't want their own nation, I'm guessing both are a tiny minority.Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.
These people are so loaded they don't give a shit about stuff like that, and Turkey has already shown they'll just switch to Russian military equipment when needed. The entire Turkish economy should be hit hard.
So what's your takeaway from all this?Thank you for your exemplary contribution to the thread dude, really classy post. Actually I'm a liberal, secular Turkish American dude who thinks Erdogan and Trump are the worst things that happened to both republics but I guess going ad hominem and name calling is easer than realising the issue at hand needs a deeper understanding.
My dude, Turkey is working with Assad, the largest terrorist of the conflict. Get the fuck out with the gaslighting. Kurdish fighters have been the best and most effective force in fighting ISIS. When the Iraqi army broke ranks and fled, when Turkey stopped at their border, when Assad and Russia were only interested in non-aggression Kurdish fighters pushed ISIS back. They absolutely earned their support in blood and the right to negotiate autonomy or independenceso you are a saying US should actively support an marxist separatist militant armed group who has been labeled as a terrorist organisation by everyone against a NATO ally and create a new state by carving Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey..... okay what can go wrong there right?
My logic is that just like it's wrong to be dismissing Turkey's murder of Kurdish civilians (as "casualties"), it's wrong to be dismissing the PKK's murder of Turkish civilians.Civilians have not been directly targeted.
You do understand that in any situation in which one group of historically marginalised people are in direct conflict with their oppressor, absolutely no side is going to emerge without casualties, right?
Is your logic that Turkey's invasion and slaughter of these people is justified because civilians have died? What of the countless Kurdish civilians who have been direct targets by the Turkish military?
Kurds just have to roll over and die... If it weren't for the PKK there wouldn't be any Turkish Kurds left, due to systemic massacring and assimilation.Civilians have not been directly targeted.
You do understand that in any situation in which one group of historically marginalised people are in direct conflict with their oppressor, absolutely no side is going to emerge without casualties, right?
Is your logic that Turkey's invasion and slaughter of these people is justified because civilians have died? What of the countless Kurdish civilians who have been direct targets by the Turkish military?
All presidential candidates should have at least a basic understanding of world history and global politics. Maybe he is just as informed as your average American...
PKK is mainly labeled a terrorist organization abroad because of Turkish pressure.
Altho not completely innocent in their actions, but compared to the Turkish state, they are saints.
Except the government?Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done while I don't. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.
Dude I'm Turkish, you can't find any sane person that supports them. People won't let something like that to happen. But what I know.
I'm actually busy with my thesis so couldn't follow much news or read about it last 2 years. I mean in word they don't support it and can't support it. But people here, I'm guessing, implies some shady actions which I should be more informed to answer.
I actually don't know about that if it's tiny minority because there isn't much research about it, at least I couldn't find it. (Didn't mean any wiki page, I mean scientific papers)Kurds are not a single entity, you'll have pro independence Kurds and those who don't want it. Just like there are some Palestinians who don't want their own nation, I'm guessing both are a tiny minority.
This isn't the last straw for them to go that farIs there any chance this impels Republican lawmakers to remove him from office? Retreating from Syria and capitulating to Turkey must be odious to neocons. I'm not sure how much this matters relative to the sanctity of their party.
I agree with you, just curious if others felt differently. I'm not really convinced there is a "last straw." He can't take a phone call without starting a scandal and he's publicly dragged many (most?) Congressmen. It seems nothing he says or does is indefensible.
okay, I will reword my statement,Why all the people like you talks as if all Kurds support PKK/YPG? You can check twitter, a lot of Kurds not support them and want this operation to be done while I don't. My roommate from university was Kurdish and he hates them too much. They also killed a lot of civilians wheter it's Turkish or Kurdish. They killed kurdish political figures.
Also That prison which helds ISIS members seems located in very far away from the border. I don't think it's bombarded.
Dude I'm Turkish, you can't find any sane person that supports them. People won't let something like that to happen. But what I know.
Well those sanctions are quite harsh, specially the s400 part. This may remove Turkey from the f35 program. Maybe this will dissuade Erdogan to push further.