Twitch has a racist problem

[Real Hero]

Destiny isn't perfect but who is? Seems very silly to hate on someone who spends his time showing the alt right up because you don't agree with his reasoning for doing so. Just on a practical level if you by into this whole culture war that's going on and normalization ofalt-right talking points in society someone like him serves a function in fighting back against it.

and just for the record, I don't agree with him at all on his take on using slurs in that post but does that override the positive of showingup some of the altright internet darlings, if even one of his viewers stops idolizing those people because of what he does, he surely doing some good and probably more than most on here. I hope he rethinks what he said in that post though

 

[Deleted member 888]

Destiny isn't perfect but who is? Seems very silly to hate on someone who spends his time showing the alt right up because you don't agree with his reasoning for doing so. Just on a practical level if you by into this whole culture war that's going on and normalization ofalt-right talking points in society someone like him serves a function in fighting back against it.

and just for the record, I don't agree with him at all on his take on using slurs in that post but does that override the positive of showingup some of the altright internet darlings, if even one of his viewers stops idolizing those people because of what he does, he surely doing some good and probably more than most on here. I hope he rethinks what he said in that post though

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The guy is almost 30 and seems to have some sort of lust to keep saying f*ggot in livestreams?

I'm more "offended" by his dumb takes on handling paedophilia, but can I blame others for shunning a grown man who can't stop using slurs with little context other than "here's some philosophical take on words just being words"? Nah. He's operating as himself on a personal level, this isn't some satire, movie or actor portraying a character. The context is what he said earlier, he couldn't care less about his personal behaviour and understands he is behaving as himself.

Grow the fuck up Destiny. You're a public facing "internet celeb". Have some self respect in public and you'll garner more respect from others. It's not hard and it shows good human qualities to master self restraint and have an awareness of what you say and do in public can affect others.

 

[Dernhelm]

The guy is almost 30 and seems to have some sort of lust to keep saying f*ggot in livestreams?

I'm more "offended" by his dumb takes on handling paedophilia, but can I blame others for shunning a grown man who can't stop using slurs with little context other than "here's some philosophical take on words just being words"? Nah. He's operating as himself on a personal level, this isn't some satire, movie or actor portraying a character. The context is what he said earlier, he couldn't care less about his personal behaviour and understands he is behaving as himself.

Grow the fuck up Destiny. You're a public facing "internet celeb". Have some self respect in public and you'll garner more respect from others. It's not hard and it shows good human qualities to master self restraint and have an awareness of what you say and do in public can affect others.

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No, but we need him tho. He challenges the alt-right tho. Why can't we cut him some slack? he's clearly raked up enough 'left' points to say some offensive shit and not have it be harmful, hasn't he?

 

[Deleted member 888]

No, but we need him tho. He challenges the alt-right tho. Why can't we cut him some slack? he's clearly raked up enough 'left' points to say some offensive shit and not have it be harmful, hasn't he?

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It's not like the guy has ceased to exist, just been kicked from Era, where he wasn't really active anyway. Its not like he had to reply in this topic either. People on the left get banned from here all the time if they can't watch their public behaviour on the forum. It is what it is.

To be honest it seems Destiny manages to get himself banned from a few places. Isn't he banned off Twitter? There comes a point where no matter how much good you do you might do yourself a favour listening to any of the things you still do that are frustrating others.

Coming onto this forum and opening with I don't really care about people and here's why I say slurs, probably isn't the best way to introduce yourself.

 

[rude]

Wew lads. It's really late and there are a lot of ideas running around here. I'll chime in with my two cents, but this post is gonna be pretty sloppy so bear with me.

Firstly, I am not your friendly, neighborhood progressive. If your previous view of me was that, erase that from your head right now. I do not care, intrinsically, about minorities, or women, or people, or racism, or anything like that. It is not part of my rhetoric to convince people that these things are morally bad, it is not part of my characters to be inherently concerned with these things. I believe that feminism and equal opportunities for minorities tend to produce better outcomes worldwide. This is why I end up at many of the same positions that progressives end up.

I am repeating this one more time, my internal thought process is not motivated by any pure, morally virtuous desire to help people or make people feel better.

Now that we have that out of the way, let's talk about homophobic and racial slurs.

From a personal point of view, I don't think any word, inherently, should be off limits or out of bounds. There are times when using extremely vulgar language can achieve a great effect.

This, so far, should be undeniable.

Does racist language make a person racist? Does homophobic language make a person homophobic? Not necessarily, as much as it might upset some of you to consider this.

A person using homophobic language is not necessarily homophobic, though they oftentimes are unintentionally spreading homophobia.

This seems like a meaningless distinction, but I believe there's a great deal of difference between telling someone they are unintentionally empowering homophobic people vs being a homophobic person. Maybe you don't care, but to the person receiving the message, it matters, trust me.

As a public figure who lives in a society I have to be mindful of how I speak. Ultimately the way my message is interpreted by a viewer is my responsibility, or at least I believe I have some due diligence to ensure people aren't taking away the wrong message from my speech. This is why I generally avoid things like "faggot" or other types of heavy racial humor, and it's why I've been trying to edit out things like "retarded" and "autistic" from my vocabulary. I don't like the idea that people watching me could get an idea that I am homophobic in a way they might be, and I don't like the idea that racist people could listen to me and find companionship in what I'm saying, or some kind of affirmation in their horrible worldviews. I've written about this more extensively here, if you care to read.

Do I say offensive jokes privately that I would never say on stream? You better believe it. But why, what's the difference?

I have never much been concerned with the words themselves, but rather the thoughts/ideas they can spread.

A community that openly uses the word "faggot" probably feels unwelcoming because there are still a lot of gamers (and, larger, elements of society) that still act incredibly homophobic. If a friend of mine uses "faggot" in some insulting way in a private setting, I don't generally think twice about them saying it. If a stranger uses that word, I'm very uncomfortable around them because I don't know if they're actually a homophobic person.

These distinctions may be meaningless to you, and to some extent you can argue that using racial/homophobic slurs in ANY context should be off limits, and I'm fine with tackling those arguments. I generally don't like being called "racist" or "homophobic" because I believe my body of work (can u call a utube channel that tho) speaks for itself, but if you believe that my actions help to spread homophobic thought, maybe you don't care to make the distinction.

I'm sleeping and I'll answer what I can when I wake up, and maybe even proofread/edit this if there are major fuckups.

Stay safe my children.

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This might be the most embarrassing post I've ever read in my life.

 

[Dernhelm]

It's not like the guy has ceased to exist, just been kicked from Era, where he wasn't really active anyway. Its not like he had to reply in this topic either. People on the left get banned from here all the time if they can't watch their public behaviour on the forum. It is what it is.

To be honest it seems Destiny manages to get himself banned from a few places. Isn't he banned off Twitter? There comes a point where no matter how much good you do you might do yourself a favour listening to any of the things you still do that are frustrating others.

Coming onto this forum and opening with I don't really care about people and here's why I say slurs, probably isn't the best way to introduce yourself.

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He is, or at least was, indeed banned from Twitter too, and - unless anyone can point me to a clip of him addressing it - doesn't seem to spot the common denominator in each of his transgressions with sites is his own nonchalant stance on offensive language. Or, if he even does spot it, has relatively no regard for the offence and harm such language can bring (notice how he tried to wash his hands of that by saying 'unintentionally spreading homophobia' - the offender doesn't get to define what is harmful or phobic), and from a more callous standpoint - a standpoint I think Destiny would care about - it's only going to dry up more and more viewers each time he does this, or attract more alt-right. I find the push and pull in this thread to define his fanbase as being on either end of the political spectrum a sign that that is already occurring.

 

[Deleted member 888]

He is, or at least was, indeed banned from Twitter too, and - unless anyone can point me to a clip of him addressing it - doesn't seem to spot the common denominator in each of his transgressions with sites is his own nonchalant stance on offensive language. Or, if he even does spot it, has relatively no regard for the offence and harm such language can bring (notice how he tried to wash his hands of that by saying 'unintentionally spreading homophobia' - the offender doesn't get to define what is harmful or phobic), and from a more callous standpoint - a standpoint I think Destiny would care about - it's only going to dry up more and more viewers each time he does this, or attract more alt-right. I find the push and pull in this thread to define his fanbase as being on either end of the political spectrum a sign that that is already occurring.

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To be honest, I don't care about "fanbases", I look at individuals. The guy didn't do himself any favours with that post that has been quoted a million times now, so he made it easy for the forum to say that's a pretty shitty post, cya later.

As I've said a few times it really doesn't take a lot of self-restraint to be able to watch your behaviour and actions in public. The public realm is what opens you up to others seeing how you interact and how you share your ideas. Yes, it's true, most people can do and say whatever they want in private, especially if you're surrounded by friends who don't care or do as you do. The "I have a black/gay friend" is the height of that. No one gives a shit if you have either and can say n*gga and f*ggot around them. Great? What is the difference between someone with some smarts, or someone who has mastered the ability to actually care about others, is someone who can adapt to the public realm under the basis of knowing the world isn't their private playground. Hopefully someone who can also see even in private it's best to have some damn self-respect as well and not turn into a complete asshat.

You want a thought experiment? Well, you can assume with a degree of confidence all the cliques of Resetera/communities and even the staff talk about posters they don't like in private/on discord and with close friends. Probably say many things they'd get banned for if said in public around here. Humans do that. Welcome to the real world. Try having real friends who don't bitch about their actual friends behind their backs at times. Most people accept in public if you get caught being an asshole, you'll get called an asshole. Call it hypocritical if you want, it's real life. As I said above try and have some self-respect even in private, but sure, the private realm and public realm can offer varying degrees of freedom without consequence.

It's also true that people that seemingly can't adapt at all in public, may well be people who truly don't care or are simply assholes. Destiny pretty unashamedly opened with "I don't care", so, how do you think people will take that? How do you think a forum moderation viewpoint is going to take that? He dug his own grave and his fans will have to accept that.

For someone who is supposedly the "master of philosophical thinking", he was lacking thinking that post was going to be met with a standing applause and a pat on the back. It was fucking stupid and would have gotten anyone on here banned.

 

[Dernhelm]

To be honest, I don't care about "fanbases", I look at individuals. The guy didn't do himself any favours with that post that has been quoted a million times now, so he made it easy for the forum to say that's a pretty shitty post, cya later.

As I've said a few times it really doesn't take a lot of self-restraint to be able to watch your behaviour and actions in public. The public realm is what opens you up to others seeing how you interact and how you share your ideas. Yes, it's true, most people can do and say whatever they want in private, especially if you're surrounded by friends who don't care or do as you do. The "I have a black/gay friend" is the height of that. No one gives a shit if you have either and can say n*gga and f*ggot around them. Great? What is the difference between someone with some smarts, or someone who has mastered the ability to actually care about others, is someone who can adapt to the public realm under the basis of knowing the world isn't their private playground. Hopefully someone who can also see even in private it's best to have some damn self-respect as well and not turn into a complete asshat.

You want a thought experiment? Well, you can assume with a degree of confidence all the cliques of Resetera/communities and even the staff talk about posters they don't like in private/on discord and with close friends. Probably say many things they'd get banned for if said in public around here. Humans do that. Welcome to the real world. Try having real friends who don't bitch about their actual friends behind their backs at times. Most people accept in public if you get caught being an asshole, you'll get called an asshole. Call it hypocritical if you want, it's real life. As I said above try and have some self-respect even in private, but sure, the private realm and public realm can offer varying degrees of freedom without consequence.

It's also true that people that seemingly can't adapt at all in public, may well be people who truly don't care or are simply assholes. Destiny pretty unashamedly opened with "I don't care", so, how do you think people will take that? How do you think a forum moderation viewpoint is going to take that? He dug his own grave and his fans will have to accept that.

For someone who is supposedly the "master of philosophical thinking", he was lacking thinking that post was going to be met with a standing applause and a pat on the back. It was fucking stupid and would have gotten anyone on here banned.

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Pretty much, especially the last point. The thought process into disagreeing with a permaban for that kind of post, whatever grounds they want to argue it on, simply falls flat when he's clearly stating from the start he has no intentions of stopping using such slurs despite knowing the harm is can 'unintentionally' do to minorities (of whom he made clear he didn't care for) and sparked immediate reaction from many people. Had he been an unrecognisable figure on the internet, there wouldn't have been any attempt at pulling contextual evidence off-site to defend his character; no "watch this video of him with Jontron". No. Fuck off. He came on here and spouted total disregard to any and all minorities in order to defend his need to say a specific set of words, and got what was coming to him.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Pretty much, especially the last point. The thought process into disagreeing with a permaban for that kind of post, whatever grounds they want to argue it on, simply falls flat when he's clearly stating from the start he has no intentions of stopping using such slurs despite knowing the harm is can 'unintentionally' do to minorities (of whom he made clear he didn't care for) and sparked immediate reaction from many people. Had he been an unrecognisable figure on the internet, there wouldn't have been any attempt at pulling contextual evidence off-site to defend his character; no "watch this video of him with Jontron". No. Fuck off. He came on here and spouted total disregard to any and all minorities in order to defend his need to say a specific set of words, and got what was coming to him.

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By his age, you should really be past the stage of "awkward teenager that has been poorly socialised". Yes, the internet seems to have a massive problem with socially inept or awkward people who seemingly cannot understand private vs public, but Destiny apparently sells himself as an intellectual and someone mediating internet discourse via his channel/audience. He's not doing a very smart job of that if he falls down at the basic hurdle of understanding the consequences of shouting certain shit in public. To the extent of coming into a forum and going "LOL I DON'T CARE BOUT YOU" in his opening remark.

How many people on here swear and tell crude jokes in private, or maybe talk about tinder hookups and the fun shit they get up to? Many I'd presume. How many of those same people go on public transport and scream about "doing anal on the first date" and how "I met this pure cunt the other week who was such a cunt I couldn't believe the level of cunt I was witnessing" to a volume where everyone can hear them? Probably a good portion of properly socialised people will understand on a packed bus or train to temper their public behaviour to a level which will be deemed "socially acceptable". If your knee-jerk to that is it's "censorship", you being a hypocrite or pandering to SJWs, you're being disingenuous. It's called taking care in real life to be as decent as you can when around others, especially others you don't know well or who may be different than you.

It's simply called being a decent adult in the real world. Take the public transport scenario and implant it onto streaming/public engagements in general. Sure, having your own stream and media platform isn't quite the same as being on public transport, but due to the way the internet works you will be broadcast to many people, not just your diehard fanbase who might stupidly worship you like you're some God. Therefore take some damn self-respect when being a media figure like you hopefully would in public, in general.

But who knows maybe Destiny screams about f*ggots whilst standing in line to order a coffee? Either way there is a massive on-going issue with streamers and those in the media spotlight and what appears to be ego or narcassism? People that seem to think the public realm is their private realm and everyone else should shut the fuck up pointing out they're being assholes in public?

 

[esserius]

The problem with the "words are just words" thing is that it attempts to escape context. You can't scream fire in a crowded building just because, "words are just words". They have meaning, it's why you'll be arrested for shouting that.

Similarly, the, "I don't care about people" is honestly pretty frightening. It's a self-doubt that's pretty all-encompassing, and it may be what fuels the ego in the first place. The uncertainty about who they are has to be pretty deep if they wouldn't even call themselves a person (unless he doesn't care about himself... in which case that's also pretty disturbing).

 

[Dernhelm]

The problem with the "words are just words" thing is that it attempts to escape context. You can't scream fire in a crowded building just because, "words are just words". They have meaning, it's why you'll be arrested for shouting that.

Similarly, the, "I don't care about people" is honestly pretty frightening. It's a self-doubt that's pretty all-encompassing, and it may be what fuels the ego in the first place. The uncertainty about who they are has to be pretty deep if they wouldn't even call themselves a person (unless he doesn't care about himself... in which case that's also pretty disturbing).

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For someone who is also a father, having such views and benignly standing by them, nay, actively perpetuating them, is also pretty disheartening if he's raising a child.

 

[Moff]

embarrassing and pathetic mental gymnastics to justify hate speech by destiny on display here

 

[LOGANG420]

Destiny has always been Alt-Right, he platforms the very worst of the Alt Right on YouTube and Twitch and pretends to "debate" them but instead spreads their views to other people using his platform.

He's always been a known racist, homophobe and transphobe, just an overall shitlord

 

[Igniz12]

Destiny has always been Alt-Right, he platforms the very worst of the Alt Right on YouTube and Twitch and pretends to "debate" them but instead spreads their views to other people using his platform.

He's always been a known racist, homophobe and transphobe, just an overall shitlord

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Seems that way, he comes of as very self-serving in his post and women and minorities are just transactions to him for creating a "better world".

 

[L Thammy]

No, but we need him tho. He challenges the alt-right tho. Why can't we cut him some slack? he's clearly raked up enough 'left' points to say some offensive shit and not have it be harmful, hasn't he?

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I think we deserve better than someone who says outright that he doesn't care about us.

And I don't mean the left, fuck the left. I mean minorities.

 

[Dernhelm]

I think we deserve better than someone who says outright that he doesn't care about us.

And I don't mean the left, fuck the left. I mean minorities.

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Agreed, and considering the bench mark a lot of these streamers and youtubers set (i.e. play the game/say the thing), it's tragic that we don't see more of them. To make it worse, it's a bit of a catch 22 for any kind of minority to reach a level of popularity as these guys, as any kind of attention brought to ones self runs the very real chance of attracting nothing but negativity from certain viewers. Like most aspects of life, you'd have to work twice as hard to get half as far as a white guy, who in turn typically is pandering to the most close-minded they can.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Twitch is a mirror. No more, no less. Turns out shit parents all over the world are raising shit kids and those shit kids have internet access to show off their moral depravity.

 

[take_marsh]

Destiny has always been Alt-Right, he platforms the very worst of the Alt Right on YouTube and Twitch and pretends to "debate" them but instead spreads their views to other people using his platform.

He's always been a known racist, homophobe and transphobe, just an overall shitlord

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Lol

 

[Deleted member 7082]

Destiny has always been Alt-Right, he platforms the very worst of the Alt Right on YouTube and Twitch and pretends to "debate" them but instead spreads their views to other people using his platform.

He's always been a known racist, homophobe and transphobe, just an overall shitlord

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I wont defend the views he expressed in this thread, but this whole post is a lie.

 

[Windrunner]

Destiny has always been Alt-Right, he platforms the very worst of the Alt Right on YouTube and Twitch and pretends to "debate" them but instead spreads their views to other people using his platform.

He's always been a known racist, homophobe and transphobe, just an overall shitlord

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Copy and paste time:

He literally thinks violence against Nazis, white nationalists and those who push for ethnostates (different ways of saying the same thing in America I guess) is morally justified so he's doing a pretty rubbish job at pandering to the alt-right like you claim. His bigoted use of slurs don't erase all that and make him an alt-right leader given he's advocating that their heads be kicked in.

 

[Dernhelm]

Lol

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I wont defend the views he expressed in this thread, but this whole post is a lie.

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Copy and paste time:

He literally thinks violence against Nazis, white nationalists and those who push for ethnostates (different ways of saying the same thing in America I guess) is morally justified so he's doing a pretty rubbish job at pandering to the alt-right like you claim. His bigoted use of slurs don't erase all that and make him an alt-right leader given he's advocating that their heads be kicked in.

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At risk of being that shithead who assumes a thing or two about a poster based on their history, but a 2 post account whose posts being majorly inflammatory left-leaning drive-bys should raise an eyebrow.

 

[Windrunner]

At risk of being that shithead who assumes a thing or two about a poster based on their history, but a 2 post account whose posts being majorly inflammatory left-leaning drive-bys should raise an eyebrow.

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Yeah does not pass any kind of sniff test having seen the only other post made by that account; I've reported them.

 

[Tethered Penguin]

It's just hilarious how much he's pandering to his alt-right crowd, "I'm not one of you" as if we ever considered you a progressive. But you're too scared that the couple of dollars a day you get from edgy donators might be lost if they think if you're part of the official SJW™ cabal.

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I disagree, if anything a good portion (I'm basing it off his subreddit's response to this situation) of his audience fall into "I'm a liberal but I fuckin h8 sjw outrage soy boy culture", or centrists to put it shortly.

 

[Deleted member 2834]

Destiny has always been Alt-Right, he platforms the very worst of the Alt Right on YouTube and Twitch and pretends to "debate" them but instead spreads their views to other people using his platform.

He's always been a known racist, homophobe and transphobe, just an overall shitlord

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Dude come on.

 

[Chrome]

If he doesn't actually care about the people he's talking about it means he's on our side only as long as he keeps believing we actually make the world better.... sorry if "I don't actually care about you I just think that I think people like you are good for society in some utilitarian fashion" doesn't inspire confidence that he could be convinced somehow in the future that we don;t and then change teams.

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Ultimately all people are subject to change, even radical change, in their worldview under the right circumstances. If presented with substantial evidence and the right argumentation, I would be confident that ResetEra and Stormfront could perform an ideological switch. Acknowledging that your views can be subject to change is something that any person who is interested in an honest discussion must be willing to do. This doesn't make someone a bad ally, but rather I would argue that if someone is able to hold to their views steadfast with evidence and rationality, then I would argue that makes them a better ally as they have a greater and more in-depth understanding of the subject matter.

 

[Maximus]

I have no issue with people swearing, but when people say "retard, fag, n word, gay, etc" it absolutely pisses me off. Have respect for yourself and others and move away from using such ignorant and hateful words. The sad thing is the audience eats it up and everyone feels empowered to keep using these words.

 

[L Thammy]

Ultimately all people are subject to change, even radical change, in their worldview under the right circumstances. If presented with substantial evidence and the right argumentation, I would be confident that ResetEra and Stormfront could perform an ideological switch. Acknowledging that your views can be subject to change is something that any person who is interested in an honest discussion must be willing to do. This doesn't make someone a bad ally, but rather I would argue that if someone is able to hold to their views steadfast with evidence and rationality, then I would argue that makes them a better ally as they have a greater and more in-depth understanding of the subject matter.

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This is completely absurd. People have underlying values. The underlying values of a forum that values diversity and bans Neo-Nazism and a Neo-Nazi forum are completely different and incompatible.

If ResetEra becomes a Neo-Nazi forum, it will be through Neo-Nazis gradually coming in and those who oppose them being pushed over, not out of everyone on the forum being convinced that Neo-Nazism is not so bad. Similarly, Neo-Nazis are not going to be convinced overnight to value diversity; they know the harm of their ideology and genuinely don't care. For either one to "perform an ideological switch" would be to go against the very values that those communities are built upon; they would have little reason to continue to exist.

Not to mention that we're conflating people with collections of people. ResetEra isn't a white guy. ResetEra is a forum with numerous people of varied sex, gender, race, religion, and so forth. It will experience a lot of resistance to becoming a white nationalist forum simply because it is against the interest and self-preservation of a lot of the members of the forum. A lot of the members of ResetEra don't need any special reasoning to be convinced of acting in the benefit of the basic humanity of minorities because they're minorities themselves.

 

[Dernhelm]

I have no issue with people swearing, but when people say "retard, fag, n word, gay, etc" it absolutely pisses me off. Have respect for yourself and others and move away from using such ignorant and hateful words. The sad thing is the audience eats it up and everyone feels empowered to keep using these words.

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And honestly, there's an abundance of fantastic swear words that don't delve into hating on a specific minority that it's fucking ridiculous that these pricks can't string a fucking sentence together without being pissed off that they can't use their precious little shitty hallowed f or r or n word because of "the left"!

Cunts. Fucking bellends.

 

[Chrome]

This is completely absurd. People have underlying values. The underlying values of a forum that values diversity and bans Neo-Nazism and a Neo-Nazi forum are completely different and incompatible.

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Yes, but that does not mean that those underlying values are not subject to change.

If ResetEra becomes a Neo-Nazi forum, it will be through Neo-Nazis gradually coming in and those who oppose them being pushed over, not out of everyone on the forum being convinced that Neo-Nazism is not so bad. Similarly, Neo-Nazis are not going to be convinced overnight to value diversity; they know the harm of their ideology and genuinely don't care.

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If ResetEra suddenly becomes an alt-right haven, then yes will probably be because it has been infested by Neo-Nazis. I wasn't making an argument on what the most likely scenario would be, but rather that such a scenario could potentially happen (although the likelihood of such is far below slim to none).

Not to mention that we're conflating people with collections of people. ResetEra isn't a white guy. ResetEra is a forum with numerous people of varied sex, gender, race, religion, and so forth. It will experience a lot of resistance to becoming a white nationalist forum simply because it is against the interest of a lot of the members of the forum.

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I would argue that groups are subject to the same change in worldview that would be experienced by an individual. Persuasive argumentation and rhetoric can be effective on both a group of people and to an individual. Yes, it is easier to convince an individual than a crowd due to a host of reasons, some of which you've listed, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

That being said, the statement that people are subject to change, and being subject to change is neither good nor bad, still holds. Rather it is the act of changing that can either be bad (becoming a Nazi) or good (stopping being a Nazi).

 

[L Thammy]

Yes, but that does not mean that those underlying values are not subject to change.

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They're subject to change, but changing someone's underlying values is immensely more difficult than changing their specific views, as the underlying values are the basis of their views. They don't crumble under a few arguments, and often don't need specific arguments to be formed. They are the basic values to which arguments must appeal to.

If ResetEra suddenly becomes an alt-right haven, then yes will probably be because it has been infested by Neo-Nazis. I wasn't making an argument on what the most likely scenario would be, but rather that such a scenario could potentially happen (although the likelihood of such is far below slim to none).

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If ResetEra changes because a new set of people has moved in, then their views haven't changed. It's a ridiculous example that has absolutely nothing to do with your argument about a person can change. Nobody's views changed and it's not a person.

I would argue that groups are subject to the same change in worldview that would be experienced by an individual. Persuasive argumentation and rhetoric can be effective on both a group of people and to an individual. Yes, it is easier to convince an individual than a crowd due to a host of reasons, some of which you've listed, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

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Yes, a group is more volatile because the population of a group can change; people can leave. No one can leave Destiny. Destiny is a person.

That being said, the statement that people are subject to change, and being subject to change is neither good nor bad, still holds. Rather it is the act of changing that can either be bad (becoming a Nazi) or good (stopping being a Nazi).

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What I've been saying is that Destiny's underlying values are themselves repulsive. If he changes his specific views because of a good argument, they're still grounded on repulsive values, and they're just as likely to change away if the tide shifts.

 

[Chrome]

They're subject to change, but changing someone's underlying values is immensely more difficult than changing their specific views, as the underlying values are the basis of their views. They don't crumble under a few arguments, and often don't need specific arguments to be formed. They are the basic values to which arguments must appeal to.

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Okay? My argument wasn't that it's easy to change someone's underlying values, but rather that all values, including underlying values, a person has are subject to change.

If ResetEra changes because a new set of people has moved in, then their views haven't changed. It's a ridiculous example that has absolutely nothing to do with your argument about a person can change. Nobody's views changed and it's not a person.

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Okay? Except that wasn't the scenario I was implying in my original post. Yes, the more likely scenario would be new people moving in, but a situation I would be talking about would be to change the minds of a large portion of people on each website by persuasive use of evidence and reason.

Yes, a group is more volatile because the population of a group can change; people can leave. No one can leave Destiny. Destiny is a person.

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Yes, the population of a group can change which would lead to the group changing, but what I am talking about a strictly ideological change, not a population one.

What I've been saying is that Destiny's underlying values are themselves repulsive.

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I fail to see how. Like I said earlier, if his argument boils down to "X is good if it makes the world better", then his views are fundamentally indistinguishable from any sort of world view that claims to have some degree of moral superiority. It's the same line of argumentation that the statement "Diversity makes the world a better place" or more commonly "Diversity is our strength" fall under. Are those statements predicated on repulsive underlying values?

 

[MattWilsonCSS]

Ultimately all people are subject to change, even radical change, in their worldview under the right circumstances. If presented with substantial evidence and the right argumentation, I would be confident that ResetEra and Stormfront could perform an ideological switch. Acknowledging that your views can be subject to change is something that any person who is interested in an honest discussion must be willing to do. This doesn't make someone a bad ally, but rather I would argue that if someone is able to hold to their views steadfast with evidence and rationality, then I would argue that makes them a better ally as they have a greater and more in-depth understanding of the subject matter.

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Whatever Destiny's views are, are undermined by his insistence on being a child and using slurs. If he wants to sit at the grownup table, he needs to start acting like one. He'll never be welcome here until he does.

He can't be an LGBT ally and say the f word. That is complete nonsense.

 

[L Thammy]

Okay? My argument wasn't that it's easy to change someone's underlying values, but rather that all values, including underlying values, a person has are subject to change.

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When I say they're immensely difficult, I mean that it's so difficult that it's not worth entertaining. Maybe aliens will land on Earth, steal Destiny's brain, and replace it with someone who has empathy. I'm not going to rely on that happening, and you'd be ridiculous to.

Okay? Except that wasn't the scenario I was implying in my original post. Yes, the more likely scenario would be new people moving in, but a situation I would be talking about would be to change the minds of a large portion of people on each website by persuasive use of evidence and reason.

Yes, the population of a group can change which would lead to the group changing, but what I am talking about a strictly ideological change, not a population one.

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What I'm saying is that the situation you described is ridiculous and isn't going to happen. If you want, go to off-topic, and post a thread asking the members of this forum if they'd be willing to convert to Neo-Nazism if they heard a good enough argument.

I posted a scenario that is fundamentally different because the only way your Neo-Nazi ResetEra scenario would come up would be in a fundamentally different scenario than the one you described.

I fail to see how. Like I said earlier, if his argument boils down to "X is good if it makes the world better", then his views are fundamentally indistinguishable from any sort of world view that claims to have some degree of moral superiority. It's the same line of argumentation that the statement "Diversity makes the world a better place" or more commonly "Diversity is our strength" fall under. Are those statements predicated on repulsive underlying values?

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The difference between someone who values humanity as an underlying value and someone who just views it as a means to some other end is this. The person who has it as an intrinsic value has developed their worldview around that value. This is something that's important to thing and their views are subservient to; they choose views because, and the most effective way of changing their views is appealing to that underlying goal.

Someone who believes in the humanity of minorities as an intrinsic value will oppose things like Neo-Nazism because they go against that value. That's how moral arguments work in the first place. We need to have some sort of value that we're working towards. It isn't that they are "good" or "bad" in a vacuum, it's that they appeal to our underlying values - whether that's our own greed, altruism, hatred or what have you. The one that best appeals to our values is the one we align with.

If you can't understand that, you're either willfully obtuse or you're not thinking very hard, and you're not work pursuing a conversation with either way.

 

[Deleted member 888]

If presented with substantial evidence and the right argumentation, I would be confident that ResetEra and Stormfront could perform an ideological switch.

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Wut?

Anyway, it's really as simple as saying if Destiny wants to take part in certain things in public he needs to put on his adult hat and accept shouting certain slurs may get you ejected or lessen your chances of other adults in public respecting you.

That simple. The guy can be progressive in many other ways but he's going to limit himself in some public outings if he opens up conversations with "I don't really care about anyone affected by highly targeted slurs, so YOLO!".

As many others have said, plenty of cuss words out there that are less likely to draw attention to you. The f and n bombs are highly charged and have that much history behind them, of which some is still ongoing, doing a philosophy class 101 with them being just words isn't going to impress many.

 

[IceFireTerry]

destiny is a weird edgelord but he is one of the few on youtubers who talks the language of the anti sjws crowd without being one & openly challenging these people on there "SJWs Ruining games" or "Sjws are the real threat". just think of him as Token Evil Teammate

 

[MattWilsonCSS]

Like, he can't be here. The knowledge that he uses slurs in his everyday life is hostile to me and other LGBT, would make this forum less welcoming and inclusive if he was allowed to post here. He made it clear he is going to continue to use slurs because he wants to remain a child. I don't want to have him here for the possibility of changing his mind. He's old enough to know better and to make that decision on his own. He fucking knows how hurtful those words are. No one can absolve him of that. So fuck him, and fuck his defenders.

 

[L Thammy]

destiny is a weird edgelord but he is one of the few on youtubers who talks the language of the anti sjws crowd without being one & openly challenging these people on there "SJWs Ruining games" or "Sjws are the real threat". just think of him as Token Evil Teammate

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Are we living in an anime?

 

[Chrome]

When I say they're immensely difficult, I mean that it's so difficult that it's not worth entertaining.

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That's a rather broad statement, don't you think? What makes you think that all people are uncompromising on their underlying values? Because saying that everyone's underlying values are so hard to change they are essentially impossible to change is just a poor way to quickly dismiss my argument.

I posted a scenario that is fundamentally different because the only way your Neo-Nazi ResetEra scenario would come up would be in a fundamentally different scenario than the one you described.

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You are, for some reason, misunderstanding the purpose of a hypothetical scenario in a thought experiment. You've put an inordinate amount of time in debunking a claim that really only exists as an outlandish support to further reinforce my point.

To break it down into more basic parts, "People's views are subject to change. Even large groups of people are subject to change like an individual would change, so surely individuals are subject to change."

The difference between someone who values humanity as an underlying value and someone who just views it as a means to some other end is this.

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But why would someone value humanity? Because it makes the world a better place. It ultimately boils down to "X makes the world better" at which point it becomes circular: "The world being a better place makes the world a better place." So valuing humanity is still a means to an end.

Someone who believes in the humanity of minorities as an intrinsic value

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But why would they believe in the humanity of minorities? Because it makes the world a better place. "X makes the world a better" place is the intrinsic moral value. It's what all other values stem from. If that were to be replaced the view that the humanity of minorities is the base value, then all other values must be predicated on it as it can not be violated. Even if that somehow leads to an inordinate situation in which it makes the world a worse place, it still could not be violated.

We need to have some sort of value that we're working towards

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And unless someone is a nihilist who detests any and all sorts of value judgments, then then making the world a better place is what all people work towards. Yes, it leads people to radically and potentially abhorrent conclusions (often due to disagreements on what exactly "better" entails), but it all ultimately stems from the same statement. All other values are ultimately subservient to that singular goal.

 

[L Thammy]

But why would someone value humanity? Because it makes the world a better place. It ultimately boils down to "X makes the world better" at which point it becomes circular: "The world being a better place makes the world a better place." So valuing humanity is still a means to an end.

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But why would they believe in the humanity of minorities? Because it makes the world a better place.

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You value humanity and minorities because other people are humans just like you, with the same capacity to feel as you. It's basic empathy. You don't need to come up with a reason to value humanity and minorities. Making the world a better place doesn't need to come up. You either have that value as you don't. You are making it extremely clear that you don't, which is why I can't get through to you and you won't get through to me.

I'm ending this conversation.

 

[IceFireTerry]

Are we living in an anime?

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yep

 

[Karasseram]

Are we living in an anime?

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Yup end of evangelion.

 

[Red Frost]

I think there's something to be said about Destiny's place in progressive movements even with his stance being one of pragmatism rather than morality. Even acknowledging his flaws, it is undeniable the good he has done for pulling people out of the alt-right holes, at least if we're to believe the many emails he's gotten and other public interactions.

I think a reason for that is his very unique placement of his very vocal stances while using language not normally associated with those stances, which has organically put him in a sort of in-between place that doesn't really exist on the progressive left while it's very prominent on the right.

Daily Stormer head Andrew Anglin said he stopped arguing with Sargon of Akkad because his brand of "classical liberalism" puts people on the road to Anglin as their final destination anyway. This concept of pushing people along further down the rabbit hole (or up it in this case) doesn't exist on the left due to the all or nothing stance that's kind of taken over. Destiny is not perfect, but he would fit as a left equivalent of this phenomenon imo.

Not to say the language he uses isn't hurtful or that he should be allowed to post here if the staff don't seem that appropriate, but that's my assessment of the whole thing.

 

[WrenchNinja]

 

[Mobyduck]

I love how she straight up calls the kid out on being a pervert and a racist.