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Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
It's almost as if you could cosplay a character without necessarily having the same skin color.

You see women cosplaying as men and you don't see them scotching a dong between their legs.
 

ps3ud0

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,906
Just amazes me how ignorant and lack of self-awareness some arguments were like their morals were purely tied to what was acceptable to their country or on media and that they had no ability to critically assess what images were put in front of them and actually think for themselves.

I can perhaps understand this pre-internet but now there's so little excuse not to be informed, and it's a choice not to be so.

People like this allowed so many atrocities in history to happen because of their apathy.

ps3ud0 8)
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Just got caught up with this temp graveyard and I've gotta say.. The level of sheer ignorance on display is breathtaking.

That pic is gross. Not being American is not an excuse. Intent is irrelevant.
 

Daneel_O

Member
Oct 28, 2017
294
Honestly baffled with how many of these pricks handwaved this like it was no big deal.

Honestly baffled with how many people are downright insulting other members for simply stating their experience, doubts and opinions, which in almost all cases were not apologist or racist in the slightest and agreed on the ban of the streamer.

I understand that it is a very sensitive topic and that part of the problem is hand-waving whether it's done in good or bad faith. I just don't see how we can improve awareness and sensitivity on such a delicate matter if just shut yourselves to any different context and blindly attack anyone that does not conform 100% to the "right" reaction to be had in such a case.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
I don't get why people do this. People will still understand what character you are cosplaying as without changing the color of your skin.
 

Cappa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,146
As an American living in Europe,this racist shit happens more often than Id like to see.

Not just blackface also for example dressing up as asian/Chinese and talking with an Asian accent and thinking it's funny.

Granted majority of these people are just ignorant but that doesn't mean ignorance is an excuse for racism. It's not an American thing, it's a human thing.

Common sense would make anyone realize why black face is wrong no matter where in the world you live. Just because some random festival in the middle of Spain does it and "no one cares" doesn't mean it isn't racist lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Honestly baffled with how many people are downright insulting other members for simply stating their experience, doubts and opinions, which in almost all cases were not apologist or racist in the slightest and agreed on the ban of the streamer.

I understand that it is a very sensitive topic and that part of the problem is hand-waving whether it's done in good or bad faith. I just don't see how we can improve awareness and sensitivity on such a delicate matter if just shut yourselves to any different context and blindly attack anyone that does not conform 100% to the "right" reaction to be had in such a case.
Doubling down on their ignorance is what gets me pissed off.
How many times must us black people tell them this shit isn't OK? I'm from Britain, I've known people from the continent who understand this is 100% unacceptable. Using cultural differences isn't an excuse and it's tiring having to explain this verbatim. Again and again and again.
My skin colour isn't a fucking costume.
These people are on the internet, all the time. Streamers, YTers and generally interacting with social media.
The streamer here for example, instead of recognising the problem she doubled down.
What am I supposed to take from that?

There comes a point where this just becomes wilful ignorance, which comes off incredibly malicious.
If they're not willing to budge and understand that this isn't about some bullshit U.S vs Europe culture clash then they can fuck off and take my insults with them. They deserve nothing less.
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
Can't believe some were arguing that because a country is ok with racism that it's ok to be racist. Thanks to the mods for cleaning this thread up somewhat. Now the Sony "censorship" thread is heating up with people just asking questions and concerned about expression. Kind of funny some of the same characters in this thread doing the same song and dance in that one.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
Every time a streamer, or someone else who you would expect to be more culturally aware because of the nature of being so socially active on the internet does this kind of stuff, you have to wonder if they actually did it on purpose or are just really THAT dumb. Maybe a bit of both.
 

Daneel_O

Member
Oct 28, 2017
294
Doubling down on their ignorance is what gets me pissed off.
How many times must us black people tell them this shit isn't OK? I'm from Britain, I've known people from the continent who understand this is 100% unacceptable. Using cultural differences isn't an excuse and it's tiring having to explain this verbatim. Again and again and again.
My skin colour isn't a fucking costume.
These people are on the internet, all the time. Streamers, YTers and generally interacting with social media.
The streamer here for example, instead of recognising the problem she doubled down.
What am I supposed to take from that?

There comes a point where this just becomes wilful ignorance, which comes off incredibly malicious.
If they're not willing to budge and understand that this isn't about some bullshit U.S vs Europe culture clash then they can fuck off and take my insults with them. They deserve nothing less.

I completely understand why you would be pissed off and by no mean I want to disregard it. The streamer is clearly either dumb or racist and as you said, it comes off as willful or malicious ignorance very quickly.

With no regard to they specific case, it is also clear that countries, cultures and people exist where there is no clue of what a blackface is (because it very rarely happens, not because it is is tolerated) but most of those people, as you said, will still understand that it's not acceptable with little or no context. I just find many of the comments on the very fact that these people exist and are not aware of the issue very intoxicating and not productive for the discussion.

It is a moot point anyway and I don't feel I am adding anything myself.
 

nwb

Member
Mar 30, 2018
79
With no regard to they specific case, it is also clear that countries, cultures and people exist where there is no clue of what a blackface is (because it very rarely happens, not because it is is tolerated) but most of those people, as you said, will still understand that it's not acceptable with little or no context. I just find many of the comments on the very fact that these people exist and are not aware of the issue very intoxicating and not productive for the discussion.

It's not just that these people exist, but the fact that their reaction is so predictable. Prime example is the streamer this thread was originally about. She was called out for her behavior, uploaded the cliched "I'm sorry for the people I've hurt" apology video set to solemn music and then proceeded to double down on VK for her more accepting followers. It's not an issue of ignorance and education. She was educated, she didn't care. Same goes for a bunch of people who caught temp bans here.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,240
I completely understand why you would be pissed off and by no mean I want to disregard it. The streamer is clearly either dumb or racist and as you said, it comes off as willful or malicious ignorance very quickly.

With no regard to they specific case, it is also clear that countries, cultures and people exist where there is no clue of what a blackface is (because it very rarely happens, not because it is is tolerated) but most of those people, as you said, will still understand that it's not acceptable with little or no context. I just find many of the comments on the very fact that these people exist and are not aware of the issue very intoxicating and not productive for the discussion.

It is a moot point anyway and I don't feel I am adding anything myself.
If nothing else I think what you should take away that the reason reactions can be heavy and aggressive is because this issue is bullshit of the highest order. Every fucking time it's the same shit from many. If you've never heard of black face, and you're in a thread seeing people explain why this is bullshit, instead of posting your surprise and then talk about the perceived lack of racism in their respective country, they listen and respect/acknowledge why this is a problem.

Also, for the love of god(not saying you did this by any means but this is towards the many that did), please understand that in this scenario Lifeline is a character who is black, being black is not her character. Painting yourself black doesn't make yourself look more like her.
 

DrFunk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,857
Oh so she posted the same pic on a Russian forum after the ban, cosplay and all?

Hmm
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,560
I got the sense that it was less people handwaving things as being ok, or that no countries have race dynamics whatsoever outside of the US, but rather that it was concievable that in certain parts of the world, someone might not know just exactly *how* bad it is - and that this lack of knowledge about the depth of these dynamics is similarly concievable, as opposed to this person in particular being especially dumb.

There's a difference between saying "oh it's fine what they did everyone does that there" vs "it's very not fine what they did, but I can see the kind of setting that might lead there, and them not being aware of the issues doesn't make them a maximum racist ignoramus".

Then she doubled down on it, which took away any sense of leeway, but yeah.
 
Dec 12, 2017
3,000
There's no such thing as a western country (Russia included) that hasn't practiced blackface at some point in time. The intention then was to demean people and it still is. I'm have a really hard time buying the "didn't know it was offensive" argument.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,560
That's also something I've seen pop up in this thread - that because a country did something which we now see as racist, that means that everyone in that country a) knows about it having happened there and b) knows the extent of just how bad it is. Something having happened in a country is only part of the equation; the second half is the grappling with the aftereffects and sociological impact.
It's likely the case that several countries haven't had a sort of cultural reckoning with their past and race to the extent that the US has when it comes to loathsome stuff like blackface, and so they may see stuff like that as merely "cheeky ribbing". Is it? No; it's much worse than that, as it's wearing a race as a costume which has been historically used to demean an already marginalized community, but again, the idea that someone in such a country could be unaware - in not an especially egregious way considering their cultural context - of the true extent of the issue is absolutely possible.
 
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Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,694
Thailand
Surprise this thread get re open up.
but i have a question how you gonna education people or country that don't think blackface is racist or very common too them (part of culture or whatever)

Especially Asian Country like Thai,Japan and China ?
 
OP
OP
Dracil

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,437
Same way you educate people from anywhere else?

I really don't get the Asian special casing in this thread. I'm an Asian who grew up in Asia. Asians can have pretty racist views and actions as well, intentionally or not.
 

Clessidor

Member
Oct 30, 2017
260
There's no such thing as a western country (Russia included) that hasn't practiced blackface at some point in time. The intention then was to demean people and it still is. I'm have a really hard time buying the "didn't know it was offensive" argument.
Nah it's more about cultural awareness about things. And how you see things. Stuff like this happens because of ignorance and the fact that cultures make different developments over time. I think one of the big things about the US culture is, that they have/had their fair share of fighting and discussing racism within their society. And I think that's why people are more educated about Blackface there, than I was e.g.
As a German I can tell you, that we don't have a German term for "Blackface". The term was even voted as "the Anglicism of the year" in 2014. That shows how new it is for us to talk/discuss about such issues. It mostly came up on a quite similar, but larger incident on a German tv show. That was the part, when a part within our society was aware enough to even have a discussion/outrage about it.
Before that Blackfacing happened even quite often and regularly in theater plays (Othello) and within society (carneval, King Balthasar). And mostly this stuff was done mostly to "show a character trait". I know it's wrong and racist. But it was never questioned before that. And it's really hard to get this thing into people's head, if they are used to something elses.
And this thread kinda proofed it. We had people trying to play things down pointing at the cultural differences. And they are right, that there are differences. But it doesn't change the fact, that it is offensive and wrong. And we will probably continue to have incidents like this, because people stay ignorant. Or were never exposed a huge discussion about it. But it the more discussions we have, the more people got aware. The more development you have. Hopefully.
But at least in my country it feels like that "traditional" blackfacing like King Balthasar, happens much less than before. Mostly because it lost it's normalization and is discussed on a regular basis. So.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
The contextualising of Blackface as American guilt is what really troubled me, racism is universal no matter what nation, it doesn't need any qualifiers, when you start making excuses for it then you give off a worrying signal about your own world view. The mods cleanup has been exceptional.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,240
Surprise this thread get re open up.
but i have a question how you gonna education people or country that don't think blackface is racist or very common too them (part of culture or whatever)

Especially Asian Country like Thai,Japan and China ?
You can send them a google link presumably. Or worse, a book. The problem isn't how to educate on this subject, but to get people to actually care. This thread has made it super evident that many don't.
 
Nov 6, 2017
87
I just came across this youtube video last week about the Chinese Spring Festival Gala where a Chinese Lady is blackface. They interview people on the street on how they feel about it. I found the responses both disappointing and interesting at the same time. I've
 
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Sparkedglory2

Member
Nov 3, 2017
6,412
Funnily enough I do tend to see black or brown cosplayers get criticized and called all manner of terrible things for cosplaying non black characters and NOT using anything to paint their skin. Bullshit like "oh it's not accurate" or "a black person cosplaying snake? He isn't black!" Etc.

So no, I will not accept any of this nonsense that she was just trying to be accurate. Just wear the costume. She was punished, just as she should be.

Edit: and blackface is wrong anywhere, doesn't matter where you're from.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,990
"I'm from Europe, we don't have racism here" followed by "stop being offended by racism!" is certainly a winning combination.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,694
Thailand
You can send them a google link presumably. Or worse, a book. The problem isn't how to educate on this subject, but to get people to actually care. This thread has made it super evident that many don't.

Well,I Just made topics on popular thai website (Pantip) about three popular show that lead character are thai native (sakai/mani),Half Thai-Black and Disguise Black Woman to revenage who rape her that is blackface/racist or not

https://pantip.com/topic/38770158

Let see how they respond/answer the question.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,899
This isn't blackface. It is neither harmful nor demeaning. To take it as such is an extreme that makes little sense when you understand that actual historical significance of black face.

There's nothing to understand. It's an overreaction to an oversimplified issue.

Actions have impact regardless of intent.
 

aember

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,026
Whew, I like seeing articles about my country, but too bad this wasn't a positive one.

She's a millennial Russian who grew up in early 00s Lithuania. Not only am I not surprised that this happened nor that she then posted the photo on vk, not only do I completely understand and accept her apology, but I fully expect her to do this again at some point in the future, except this time in a more private setting that can't get her banned on Twitch and the like.

Hopefully this won't happen again, but who knows. I'm not saying shit about other countries (it was funny reading some of the posts in this thread), but I know for a fact that there's still high chances over here of it happening and not by the same person.

Maybe in a few generations we'll have teachers who'll actually start saying things like "racism is bad, don't say the N word", but until then - fuck ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Ponn

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,171
I'm impressed people are still defending a streamer that kept posting pictures of her blackface even after being told it was racist because of its sordid history.

All these people dying on this hill to defend this poor and ignorant white woman.

Smh

Here's a hint, they all already know this is bad. Just like they know using slurs and calling people the N word is offensive in gaming. They know, they have been educated multiple times, they have google, they have access to media, they can read the first page of this thread. They wield ignorance as a shield and play the victims as bad actors.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992

Oh look, that went exactly like anyone with a brain would have predicted it going. Even so far as evoking the "I know black people and we joke about this" and "you must eat soy". These fuckers are predictable.
 

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Oh look, that went exactly like anyone with a brain would have predicted it going. Even so far as evoking the "I know black people and we joke about this" and "you must eat soy". These fuckers are predictable.

What I think really happened is if these black coworkers are real is,he just got oil on his face and they laughed at it. I doubt he told them he was doing blackface.

Just shows what happens when you don't have a life outside the internet or learn to interact with others. It's bizzare how he thinks blackface is so normal.
 

AriesM4rch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
313
Man, the amount of ignorance I've seen on this topic in gaming circles is hilarious. Her being from a different country means nothing, it's racist. Wish her ban was longer.
 

Daneel_O

Member
Oct 28, 2017
294
I got the sense that it was less people handwaving things as being ok, or that no countries have race dynamics whatsoever outside of the US, but rather that it was concievable that in certain parts of the world, someone might not know just exactly *how* bad it is - and that this lack of knowledge about the depth of these dynamics is similarly concievable, as opposed to this person in particular being especially dumb.

There's a difference between saying "oh it's fine what they did everyone does that there" vs "it's very not fine what they did, but I can see the kind of setting that might lead there, and them not being aware of the issues doesn't make them a maximum racist ignoramus".

Then she doubled down on it, which took away any sense of leeway, but yeah.

Thank you for putting down what I was trying to say in a much better way than I could ever do. It's not a big deal, some ruffled feathers on a forum are not a bad thing compared to the big picture and to the horrors of racism, but they are not a good thing either, and I think it is a conversation to be had.

There's no such thing as a western country (Russia included) that hasn't practiced blackface at some point in time. The intention then was to demean people and it still is. I'm have a really hard time buying the "didn't know it was offensive" argument.
The contextualising of Blackface as American guilt is what really troubled me, racism is universal no matter what nation, it doesn't need any qualifiers, when you start making excuses for it then you give off a worrying signal about your own world view. The mods cleanup has been exceptional.
"I'm from Europe, we don't have racism here" followed by "stop being offended by racism!" is certainly a winning combination.

Guys, I think discussing on the premise that "culture x has no blackface history" = "culture x has no racism history" is disingenous at best and not at all what many people were trying to say.
While the latter is clearly nonsense, I don't see how it is hard the understand that the former is true.
35 years old Italian here, off the top of my head I can recall maybe two clear cases of caricatural depictions of PoC in my whole life, one in an old commercial and one from a famous comedian, and we still haven't developed a discussion on the topic whatsoever especially since we've been exposed considerably to other communities only in the last two decades.

Of course you might see the occasional person painting their skin to represent PoC , but I think that's were our wires get crossed. If you strip this practice from its horrible history in societies that experienced oppression and segregation, you are left with something tasteless and unnecessary, that nevertheless might not be immediately recognizable as offensive even for the most educated and progressive parts of the society, simply because they were never exposed to the bigger picture or had the occasion to think over it.

Do you need to care/understand all of this?
Does this justify or redeem blackfacing ?
Of course not, I just think that a better understanding of where everybody comes from is a more powerful tool than drawing an absolute line.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
I just came across this youtube video last week about the Chinese Spring Festival Gala where a Chinese Lady is blackface. They interview people on the street on how they feel about it. I found the responses both disappointing and interesting at the same time. I've

Well, At least you can't tell Chinese people to "just google it". I think this video shows exactly what many people have argued in this thread.

How do Chinese people know about blackface, and more importantly, why should they care? Most Chinese people never see a black person in real life for their entire life. It's unlikely they will learn about the oppression of black people in such detail to understand what blackface even is. Naturally, when someone tells them "this is offensive", the response would be "I don't know what you are talking about."
 

Jeffrey Guang

Member
Nov 4, 2017
724
Taiwn
For me, people using "I am a European so you could not call me racist" as an excuse for wearing others skin color as costume is incredibly offensive.

Europeans are the original colonizer. There's a reason why even after two world wars, Europe is still the richest region in the world. The same reason also makes Africa the poorest region in the world. And please let me remind these Europeans that they are the ones who kidnapped and sold slaves of all kinds around the world in the first place. It's laughable that these European thinks that they have nothing to do with racism.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
For me, people using "I am a European so you could not call me racist" as an excuse for wearing others skin color as costume is incredibly offensive.

Europeans are the original colonizer. There's a reason why even after two world wars, Europe is still the richest region in the world. The same reason also makes Africa the poorest region in the world. And please let me remind these Europeans that they are the ones who kidnapped and sold slaves of all kinds around the world in the first place. It's laughable that these European thinks that they have nothing to do with racism.

Not all European people are colonizer or slave masters, especially in eastern Europe (including Lithuania). It's incredibly dumb to accuse an entire continent for the crime committed by a few nations.
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
For me, people using "I am a European so you could not call me racist" as an excuse for wearing others skin color as costume is incredibly offensive.

Europeans are the original colonizer. There's a reason why even after two world wars, Europe is still the richest region in the world. The same reason also makes Africa the poorest region in the world. And please let me remind these Europeans that they are the ones who kidnapped and sold slaves of all kinds around the world in the first place. It's laughable that these European thinks that they have nothing to do with racism.
Yikes, are all the different countries and ethnicities in Europe a monolith now?
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Honestly baffled with how many people are downright insulting other members for simply stating their experience, doubts and opinions, which in almost all cases were not apologist or racist in the slightest and agreed on the ban of the streamer.

I understand that it is a very sensitive topic and that part of the problem is hand-waving whether it's done in good or bad faith. I just don't see how we can improve awareness and sensitivity on such a delicate matter if just shut yourselves to any different context and blindly attack anyone that does not conform 100% to the "right" reaction to be had in such a case.
Because none of that matters and there is no "conforming" there is simply don't do it and make it a purpose in life as a human being to get out your bubble. No more patience with this shit.


Not all European people are colonizer or slave masters, especially in eastern Europe (including Lithuania). It's incredibly dumb to accuse an entire continent for the crime committed by a few nations.
A few nations? let me go laugh for 10 hours.
 

Cappa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,146
For me, people using "I am a European so you could not call me racist" as an excuse for wearing others skin color as costume is incredibly offensive.

Europeans are the original colonizer. There's a reason why even after two world wars, Europe is still the richest region in the world. The same reason also makes Africa the poorest region in the world. And please let me remind these Europeans that they are the ones who kidnapped and sold slaves of all kinds around the world in the first place. It's laughable that these European thinks that they have nothing to do with racism.
Yikes this statement is wrong on so many levels.

Hoepfulyl with that mentality you agree that the slavery occurring in some middle eastern countries is also wrong?
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Thank you for putting down what I was trying to say in a much better way than I could ever do. It's not a big deal, some ruffled feathers on a forum are not a bad thing compared to the big picture and to the horrors of racism, but they are not a good thing either, and I think it is a conversation to be had.





Guys, I think discussing on the premise that "culture x has no blackface history" = "culture x has no racism history" is disingenous at best and not at all what many people were trying to say.
While the latter is clearly nonsense, I don't see how it is hard the understand that the former is true.
35 years old Italian here, off the top of my head I can recall maybe two clear cases of caricatural depictions of PoC in my whole life, one in an old commercial and one from a famous comedian, and we still haven't developed a discussion on the topic whatsoever especially since we've been exposed considerably to other communities only in the last two decades.

Of course you might see the occasional person painting their skin to represent PoC , but I think that's were our wires get crossed. If you strip this practice from its horrible history in societies that experienced oppression and segregation, you are left with something tasteless and unnecessary, that nevertheless might not be immediately recognizable as offensive even for the most educated and progressive parts of the society, simply because they were never exposed to the bigger picture or had the occasion to think over it.

Do you need to care/understand all of this?
Does this justify or redeem blackfacing ?
Of course not, I just think that a better understanding of where everybody comes from is a more powerful tool than drawing an absolute line.
Excuses
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
Blackface is racist, it is offensive and should never be acceptable.

The fact that it is accepted in some countries, requires people who do it to be told why it is racist, and why it is unacceptable.

Do you know what else was accepted in many countries and still is in more places than it should? Racism, homophobia, and bigotry. Is that acceptable?

In the UK growing up the local corner shops were referred to widely as P-Word shops (No, I'm not repeating it). This was deeply racist and offensive yet widely used and the people using it would likely deny being racist in doing so.

They would be wrong. It took years for the Indian, Pakistani and Bangladesh community affected to finally get the recognition that the term was deeply hurtful, racist and wrong.

This is similar. Just because something is widely used in a certain country does not make it acceptable, and requires education, condemnation of racism in any form and to get people to commit to doing better.

Nobody should handwave this, or any form of racism because of "cultural differences". The origins of blackface do not change just because it is used in different places after all. Once someone is aware of the racist, offensive origins and why using it is wrong, you'd hope that would be enough for people to stop.

Yes, lots of people through eastern Europe especially do not know of the racism behind blackface, but nobody here has that excuse. Once someone knows, that should be the end of it.

Instead of defending people to have the right to use a racist idea like this because they don't see it that way, remember that the people hurt by racism should be the ones being defended and to respect their wishes to not be the subject of something that ridicules, belittles and dehumanises them, regardless of intention by the person doing it.
 

Xumbrega

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,080
Brasil
Lol, I'm baffled people were still using the ignorance argument even AFTER she was told that it is racist (do people really have to say that about blackface even in 2019?) and she posted the same picture on another website, I'm fucking sure this isn't about ignorance.

Also, lmao at people saying "Here in (insert a well know racist country here) we didn't know it was racist!!"