Two Riot Employees "Leave" Under "Complicated Circumstances" After PAX Session Excluding Men.

Deleted member 5853 · Sep 7, 2018

The quotation marks are my own because it is unknown whether they left voluntarily or were told to leave by Riot senior staff. In addition, the "complicated circumstances" refer to the events chronicled in this thread.

EDIT 1: One of them was explicitly fired:

Nirolak said:
One of them was explicitly fired: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/7/17827796/riot-games-employee-depart-women-only-pax-west-event

Systems designer Daniel Klein and communications associate Mattias Lehman were known to be outspoken on social media within the game's community. Most recently, that discussion revolved around a controversial decision to keep some events at PAX West open only to women and non-binary people. Klein told The Verge: "I was fired for violating our social media policy." It's still not clear if Lehman was fired or if he quit.

Here's the short version:
- Riot, in the wake of some pretty horrific sexism and bro culture, tried to do something good for the female & non-binary members of their community by hosting a series of events at PAX West exclusive to these two groups.

Right next door in Room 613 we're hosting a variety of sessions to support women and non-binary folks who are interested in getting into games professionally. Stop by to learn from and get to know some of the badass women of Riot! Tentative schedule below, but all subject to change—stop by the room Friday-Monday for a daily schedule.

10 AM-12 PM: 1-on-1 resume review & feedback

12-3 PM: Presentations including:

Art + Champions/Skins Design

How to be a Producer

Narrative Writing

Production Careers

Game Design

Advanced Cosplay

- Reddit didn't like that:

I am a woman (who has been active in the toxic culture threads) and I am just sitting here going......what....the.....fuck? who ok'd this????? riot, this isnt how you do things. you have a session titled lbgt/women in gaming paneled by women, lgbt and your most senior people at the event and make it available to everyone. what if someone's sister or shy girlfriend cant make it to pax so they have a dude attend for them and take notes? just....christ guys (riot) stop just fucking stop.

Imagine being a woman who worked your ass off to create an incredible cosplay that you wanted everyone, as many people as possible to be able to appreciate in-person. Then you find out Riot banned your event from being seen by all men. To be progressive

No, the worst part is that one of the biggest developers in the games industry just took an official stance in support of prejudice

How do they confirm who's non-binary? What's stopping me from walking in and saying I am?

(in response to the one above)
They will call in the penis inspection day nurse from your elementary school.

- In response to that thread, one of the now-fired employees, Daniel Klein said this on Twitter:

- Reddit didn't like that:

Remember that the mods also found a bullshit reason to remove the initial article about Riot's sexism. The mods have now protected Riot from both their sexism against women and their sexism against men, really high quality team we got here.

Yeah it's absurd. "Violently angry" where??? I was also discussing with another dude why excluding people from spaces does little to solve sexism and he started rambling about "white male can't stand anything taken from them": wtf nobody was talking about racism?

It's pretty racist on his part.

He is not seeing or acknowledging anyone else besides white men. People who pull that card only show the world how racist they themselves are.

Especially when no one even mentioned race.

you know what I find terrifying? A top riot employee is calling a large portion of the community "terrifying" and is speaking on behalf of women/nonbinary people despite being a white male himself. how delusional and self-centered is this guy. he claims losing attendance to PAX panels is a "small thing" which again assumes everyone shares the same priorities as him. what a dreadful human being.

Now this:

In the wake of public allegations that Riot Games has fostered a sexist workplace culture, two longtime employees exited the company yesterday under hazy circumstances.

Systems designer Daniel Klein and communications associate Mattias Lehman—both outspoken advocates for gender diversity at Riot—are no longer working at the company following a contentious weekend involving a controversial PAX West panel.

Seven current and former Rioters believe that Klein and Lehman's exits from the company have to do with their public response to the controversy around that PAX session and, perhaps, prior activism and engagement around issues of diversity at Riot Games. Klein, Lehman, and Riot would not specifically state why the two employees are no longer with the company.

The PAX session offered résumé feedback as well as presentations on art design, game production, narrative writing and cosplay. In line with its focus on female and non-binary aspiring professionals, men were not welcome at the event, which sparked an outcry from League of Legends' Reddit community. (/r/League of Legends removed a large thread linking to Kotaku's investigation days after its publication.) Several League fans referred to the panel as "sexist" because it excluded men. One post summed up a common reaction: "You don't fix your shitty corporate culture by being sexist towards men."

Sources currently employed by Riot say that Riot asked some employees representing Riot not to publicly engage with the controversy, yet both Klein and Lehman—whom current and former employees say advocated for women and women's issues while at Riot—commented on it publicly.

Klein did not mince words. On Twitter, he referred to one thread as a "toxic landfill" and described angry League fans as "manbabies." After some tweets attempting to explain that "'sexism against men' makes no sense," and spelling out why sexism is defined by discrimination against a marginalized gender, Klein began receiving inflamed messages from League players over his comments. That strain of message fed into its own Reddit thread, which garnered over 3,800 comments, and into threads on KotakuInAction, a subreddit associated with GamerGate. Many commenters called for Riot to take action against Klein, who received a barrage of harassment over the weekend.

On Twitter, Lehman defended Klein. He wrote, "Being an ally means listening to, learning from, and standing up with marginalized people. @danielzklein has done that in the years I've known and worked with him. It's telling when people spend more time tone policing him than calling out those harassing and threatening him." Days prior, Lehman published his own call-out of Riot's culture on Medium, which describes his attempts to grapple with perceived sexism and racism at the company. He wrote of an April meeting in which his workplace activism was brought up: "In a meeting with my manager, I was told that my job performance was great, but my cultural misalignment was concerning … Since then, I have gone to work most days wondering if I would be fired."

Remember, everyone, it's actually about ethics in social media use. I think it's yet another example of how ArenaNet's bullshit empowers shitty people to manipulate multi-million dollar corporations to appease the most vocal and toxic members of a fanbase.

EDIT: If the mods find the quotation marks too inflammatory, you can edit them out.

Lant_War · Sep 7, 2018

Ahh yes, nothing better than giving power to angry gamers. The most rational people known by mankind.

KoolAid · Sep 7, 2018

Arenanet all over again. You would think people would have learned by now.

Deleted member 5596 · Sep 7, 2018

Companies continues empowering gators in their crusade. ArenaNet actions are getting amplified by the moment.

Falconbox · Sep 7, 2018

Again, just like a month or two ago...your Twitter profile is public. You can't attack your core audience and expect nothing to happen.

If I went on my non-anonymous Twitter (I have one with my full name for business stuff) and publicly attacked my clients, I'd probably be removed from that client's accounts at best, fired at worst.

You're allowed to disagree with the way your community is handling stuff. But insults are not the way to do it.

Silky · Sep 7, 2018

Imagine being a woman who worked your ass off to create an incredible cosplay that you wanted everyone, as many people as possible to be able to appreciate in-person. Then you find out Riot banned your event from being seen by all men. To be progressive

This is a real argument?

People think like this?

They're using cosplay to promote your bullshit slippery slope fearmongering lmfao Reddit is fucking bizarre

Cyanity · Sep 7, 2018

Massive facepalm. Awful, awful look for Riot.

TyrantGuardian · Sep 7, 2018

Ah, so Gamergate continues to actively, intentionally and successfully censor developers. Got it.

Riot leadership stays trash.

Fireblend · Sep 7, 2018

What a trash company.

Won · Sep 7, 2018

Made the mistake to check the comments of the Kotaku artice and a bit of reddit.

Yep, Riot, like ArenaNet before them, empowering mysoginist hateful crap. Good job, Riot! You almost managed to get through a wohle week without screwing up.

Skux · Sep 7, 2018

It was only a matter of time before DZK was removed.

It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience manbabies and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

LiquidSword · Sep 7, 2018

Am I missing something? Is there another announcement saying men wouldn't be allowed to attend?

Edit: I don't understand. Even the Kotaku article says that "men would not be welcome" but that doesn't seem true at all? The fact that these disingenuous arguments from hateful people hold water at all is so damning of our culture.

Jazzem · Sep 7, 2018

Ah christ, not again

Deleted member 6730 · Sep 7, 2018

Yeah I don't think I'm giving these guys a dime in my life. I'm sure some of you don't care, were probably angry about the panel and... ok then?

Nothing about Riot's culture, and league's fan base are good.

Kainé · Sep 7, 2018

Skux said:
It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience 'manbabies' and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

Pretty much.

Mobu · Sep 7, 2018

cant Tencent just clean house already

Filament Star · Sep 7, 2018

Sources currently employed by Riot say that Riot asked some employees representing Riot not to publicly engage with the controversy, yet both Klein and Lehman—whom current and former employees say advocated for women and women's issues while at Riot—commented on it publicly.

Well there it is. Sounds like they were doing a lot more harm than good by feeding into this shit and the company obviously wants nothing to do with it.

Take5GiantSteps · Sep 7, 2018

Falconbox said:
Again, just like a month or two ago...your Twitter profile is public. You can't attack your core audience and expect nothing to happen.

If I went on my non-anonymous Twitter (I have one with my full name for business stuff) and publicly attacked my clients, I'd probably be removed from that client's accounts at best, fired at worst.

You're allowed to disagree with the way your community is handling stuff. But insults are not the way to do it.

The core audience wasn't "attacked" by this panel nor by the Twitter response. They threw a fit like a bunch of middle children with a persecution complex.

Heart_Attack · Sep 7, 2018

Skux said:
It was only a matter of time before DZK was removed.

It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience manbabies and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

Exactly

Silky · Sep 7, 2018

Mobu said:
cant Tencent just clean house already

Tencent doesn't care lmfao

RedRum · Sep 7, 2018

When it comes to women, minorities, etc.. the gaming community is such shit. I honestly think it'll never move forward in a positive way. I don't know how many times I've seen success with women in engineering conferences (Just for women) and diversity in engineering (for minorities) at my job, without someone so much as batting an eye.

Deleted member 6730 · Sep 7, 2018

Filament Star said:
Well there it is. Sounds like they were doing a lot more harm than good by feeding into this shit and the company obviously wants nothing to do with it.

Ok, so they were fired because Riot games were total cowards ok then.

Ferrio · Sep 7, 2018

Skux said:
It was only a matter of time before DZK was removed.

It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience manbabies and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

Yep.

You can fight for equality and inclusion without getting into arguments with morons on twitter/reddit. They're not going to listen to you anyways, why waste the time and energy to keep poking the bees nest. People like that shouldn't be worth your time since you gain nothing from it.

Daniagatha · Sep 7, 2018

Disappointed but not surprised. Riot like any other company, just want to know about the money. And if the majority of their players are a sexist bunch, they will bend to their will.

Poised Turtoise · Sep 7, 2018

Daniel is being antagonistic, whether or not you agree with his world views, as an employee of Riot I can understand why they'd fire him if that is what happened

ZeroDotFlow · Sep 7, 2018

Skux said:
It was only a matter of time before DZK was removed.

It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience manbabies and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

You're objectively wrong, considering I follow multiple developers and people who do just that (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not) and yet they're fine.

And this is especially funny in the wake of the allegations against Riot Games, considering we have multiple employees come forward and tell about how toxic, sexist and overall shitty the environment is at Riot. Yet I can guarantee you the people perpetuating that shitty culture within Riot are still working there. I figured that would be a lot worse than calling someone an idiot on twitter, but you know.

Deleted member 5596 · Sep 7, 2018

Poised Turtoise said:
Daniel is being antagonistic, whether or not you agree with his world views, as an employee of Riot I can understand why they'd fire him if that is what happened

"World views"

Fularu · Sep 7, 2018

Falconbox said:
Again, just like a month or two ago...your Twitter profile is public. You can't attack your core audience and expect nothing to happen.

If I went on my non-anonymous Twitter (I have one with my full name for business stuff) and publicly attacked my clients, I'd probably be removed from that client's accounts at best, fired at worst.

You're allowed to disagree with the way your community is handling stuff. But insults are not the way to do it.

Ef that

He was perfectly right to call those sexist pigs manbabies

Riot is led by either a bunch of scared idiots or its very own management is vevry deeply rooted in the same sexism and abuse parts of its fanbase displays as evidenced by the various firings and work environement articles

Tygre · Sep 7, 2018

The spectre of Gamergate continues to hover above this shithole of an industry.

Ass-backwards stuff like the Arenanet firings and all of this Riot scumbaggery are just more fuel on the garbage fire.

Fanta · Sep 7, 2018

So they'll happily fire people who tried to defend the people who are being attacked but will brush their skeletons back into the closet when it comes to the sexism allegations.
It's almost like they've learned absolutely nothing, really makes me think.

TheMrPliskin · Sep 7, 2018

Poised Turtoise said:
Daniel is being antagonistic, whether or not you agree with his world views, as an employee of Riot I can understand why they'd fire him if that is what happened

I didn't know that being a decent human being and not a burning pile of shit was a world view.

WastedDeer · Sep 7, 2018

Yeah sorry but you cant attack customers. they are linking a 'firing' to them supporting women and lgbt issues which is a great issue to support whereas they were probably fired for attacking the 'community' and ignoring an order from management.

"Sources currently employed by Riot say that Riot asked some employees representing Riot not to publicly engage with the controversy, yet both Klein and Lehman—whom current and former employees say advocated for women and women's issues while at Riot—commented on it publicly."

TyrantGuardian · Sep 7, 2018

Poised Turtoise said:
Daniel is being antagonistic, whether or not you agree with his world views, as an employee of Riot I can understand why they'd fire him if that is what happened

He should be antagonistic and his employers should support him in it unless they are pieces of shit. What the fuck is with this idea that we need to respect sexist trashbags? Fuck that noise and get them the fuck outta here.

WastedDeer said:
Yeah sorry but you cant attack customers. they are linking a 'firing' to them supporting women and lgbt issues which is a great issue to support whereas they were probably fired for attacking the 'community' and ignoring an order from management.

"Sources currently employed by Riot say that Riot asked some employees representing Riot not to publicly engage with the controversy, yet both Klein and Lehman—whom current and former employees say advocated for women and women's issues while at Riot—commented on it publicly."

"Please don't rock the boat it's very uncomfortable for our ivory tower."

Let's all applaud Riot for being so incredibly principled. *clap clap*

Fularu · Sep 7, 2018

Poised Turtoise said:
Daniel is being antagonistic, whether or not you agree with his world views, as an employee of Riot I can understand why they'd fire him if that is what happened

What does "world views" mean in this context?

Not taking crap from gaters and mysoginistic pigs?

Poised Turtoise · Sep 7, 2018

Ferrio said:
Yep.

You can fight for equality and inclusion without getting into arguments with morons on twitter/reddit. They're not going to listen to you anyways, why waste the time and energy to keep poking the bees nest. People like that shouldn't be worth your time.

No, and the tone you create when "discussing" with those kinds of closed minded individual leads to a feeling of greater divide imo. You can only meet people on a middle ground if they are willing to go there, and they are less willing to do that if one side is calling the other man babies, and the other side is crying out racism and inequality without looking at nuance

Just_a_Mouse · Sep 7, 2018

Transparent as hell. If Riot wants to enable Gamergate hatred then I guess I'll just add them to the list of things to avoid.

Deleted member 5596 · Sep 7, 2018

Ferrio said:
Yep.

You can fight for equality and inclusion without getting into arguments with morons on twitter/reddit. They're not going to listen to you anyways, why waste the time and energy to keep poking the bees nest. People like that shouldn't be worth your time since you gain nothing from it.

You can't make open statements about making efforts to eliminate toxic masculinity in your work environment and then kick two employees for openly fighting for those ideals in the public space. Makes the whole statement just pure marketing without any real intention behind it, just like ArenaNet.

deepFlaw · Sep 7, 2018

The fact that years later, the industry can't do anything but play to the scum in their audience is infuriating.

Take5GiantSteps · Sep 7, 2018

Joshii said:
So they'll happily fire people who tried to defend the people who are being attacked but will brush their skeletons back into the closet when it comes to the sexism allegations.
It's almost like they've learned absolutely nothing, really makes me think.

Yuuuuuup. Fuck Riot.

TheMrPliskin said:
I didn't know that being a decent human being and not a burning pile of shit was a world view.

Also this. People on twitter saying they hope he won't make the same mistake again. I hope if faced with the same management culture they'd do the exact same thing. Burn it all down.

Water · Sep 7, 2018

Skux said:
It was only a matter of time before DZK was removed.

It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience manbabies and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

Yup. Event seems like it was a step in the right direction, although maybe not executed as well as it could of been.

Ferrio · Sep 7, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
You can't make open statements about making efforts to eliminate toxic masculinity in your work environment and then kick two employees for openly fighting for those ideals in the public space. Makes the whole statement just pure marketing without any real intention behind it, just like ArenaNet.

I guess I don't equate having a internet slap fight with morons fighting for equality. These people aren't worth the breath. I'm not saying you should ignore them, but getting down on their level like they're special or worth the attention is silly. Hosting events like these are great ways to fight for better female representation, getting in pissing matches with fools does nothing.

TyrantGuardian · Sep 7, 2018

Poised Turtoise said:
No, and the tone you create when "discussing" with those kinds of closed minded individual leads to a feeling of greater divide imo. You can only meet people on a middle ground if they are willing to go there, and they are less willing to do that if one side is calling the other man babies, and the other side is crying out racism and inequality without looking at nuance

Lmao are you serious? Literal tone policing and "meet in the middle" with people who attack women and shut down every push toward inclusion within our industry. No thanks. I don't want to meet those people anywhere, I want to shut them out of the debate 100% and not give them an inch on anything. They don't deserve to interact with me in any way, shape or form. Anyone lending power to them is doing the rest of society a huge disservice and needs to be shamed for it. What nuance is there here, in your opinion? Please explain because I am genuinely curious.

Ferrio said:
Yep.

You can fight for equality and inclusion without getting into arguments with morons on twitter/reddit. They're not going to listen to you anyways, why waste the time and energy to keep poking the bees nest. People like that shouldn't be worth your time since you gain nothing from it.

Because you can expose them and not let them get away with people ignoring them like some irrelevant fringe group? Come on now. These people share the same sentiments as the people doing these firings. Bringing all of this to light by poking the nest is literally the most effective way of doing this unless you are a spineless coward.

deepFlaw · Sep 7, 2018

Poised Turtoise said:
Daniel is being antagonistic, whether or not you agree with his world views, as an employee of Riot I can understand why they'd fire him if that is what happened

Sexist children should be told they're unwelcome rather than be fed exactly what they want.

The fact that companies refuse to tell these parts of their audience that they're wrong is why those parts still exist.

SieteBlanco · Sep 7, 2018

Can we all agree that Kamiya is a big baby and a completely disrespectful and immature child, then?

StoveOven · Sep 7, 2018

Once again the mob gets their heads. Riot, like ArenaNet before them, are capitulating to the angry and entitled whims of Gamers in order to please the sexists in their audience instead of rooting that shit out. Convienently they're also firing people who would be the most likely to speak against the toxic culture internally. Funny how that works.

TheMrPliskin · Sep 7, 2018

Ferrio said:
I guess I don't equate having a internet slap fight with morons fighting for equality. Hosting events like these are great ways to do that, getting in pissing matches with fools does nothing.

He's calling out the kind of toxic bullshit that is rampant in the gaming community, the alternative is to be quiet and ignore it which is how we got to this point in the first place. People are capable or calling out bullshit on twitter and also doing various other things to promote equality.

TheBryanJZX90 · Sep 7, 2018

Skux said:
It was only a matter of time before DZK was removed.

It doesn't matter who you're defending, calling your audience manbabies and telling them to fuck off will get you fired from any other job.

Oh yeah that's right that's why everyone wanted Harada to be fired and now he's not making the next Tekken game

Deleted member 5596 · Sep 7, 2018

Ferrio said:
I guess I don't equate having a internet slap fight with morons fighting for equality. These people aren't worth the breath. I'm not saying you should ignore them, but getting down on their level like they're special or worth the attention is silly. Hosting events like these are great ways to fight for better female representation, getting in pissing matches with fools does nothing.

If you don't confront those people, you have the risk that their message spread, specially on public platforms on twitter. Is not about changing these idiots ideals, is about countering their damn stupid points for other people to see. Actually not confronting these ideas is, partially, how we got here.

RedOnePunch · Sep 7, 2018

What type of asshole demands that people lose their livelihood? People make me sick sometimes

Ferrio · Sep 7, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Because you can expose them and not let them get away with people ignoring them like some irrelevant fringe group? Come on now. These people share the same sentiments as the people doing these firings. Bringing all of this to light by poking the nest is literally the most effective way of doing this unless you are a spineless coward.

Expose them? They're already exposed, we're past that stage.

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