Ubisoft - Historical accuracy vs. Inclusive gameplay

[dex3108]

I saw this image today and I really didn't know how to feel about it.

I am for diversity and inclusion but is this going too far?

Mod edit: some additional context

It's not talking about vase, it's about girls shown attending lesson in-game:

Video shows it within context:

Click to shrink...

 

[BY2K]

I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity and all that. But this feels silly. If you're recreating something historic and that actually existed, don't be scared of showing how society worked at the time.

It doesn't mean you approve of it.

 

[Ace]

And that's what we get if everybody is afraid somebody might be offended.

 

[Dio]

...no it isnt? they are explaining right there why, that it's on the context of the game wold, implying in reality it isnt true. i see no problem at all.
Bayek's wife is a ridiculously proficient assassin(in a good way, i dont think it's bad), but people didnt find a problem with that, but a vase is too far? ffs

The whole point of Discovery Tour is to educate players on the history of Egypt, so at the very least they should show the original artwork for the artifact alongside the in-game version.

Click to shrink...

a far better take.

 

[PereCallahan]

The whole point of Discovery Tour is to educate players on the history of Egypt, so at the very least they should show the original artwork for the artifact alongside the in-game version.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

Artistic freedom

 

[RabbidPeach]

Not going to lie. I'm pretty sure that's a parody.

They have done jokes like that in the old AC games too.

 

[ManUtd]

I think we should learn from history rather than paint it in a better colour.. If we can't to that I truly wonder where revisionism will stop.

 

[Boiled Goose]

In the end, the free market will win.

And the future is diverse. More people. More money.

And historical accuracy? I'm pretty sure there weernwe aliens in Egypt or a clan of assassins yet people get offended by a vase with a girl.

 

[Platy]

I saw this image today and I really didn't know how to feel about it.

I am for diversity and inclusion but is this going too far?

Click to shrink...

How is this going too far?

They both show inclusion AND if people want to know, they have this text showing what was like at the older times.

What do you prefer? Sexist art in a game with cyclops and people permanently dyed white with the ashes of their loved ones even after LOTS of rain and swiming?
Most games are already ignoring realism for much shittier reasons than making the world a better place

 

[Dio]

How is this going too far?

They both show inclusion AND if people want to know, they have this text showing what was like at the older times.

What do you prefer? Sexist art in a game with cyclops and people permanently dyed white with the ashes of their loved ones even after LOTS of rain and swiming?
Most games are already ignoring realism for much shittier reasons than making the world a better place

Click to shrink...

preach

 

[Mivey]

Well, Assassin's Creed always had a lot of creative license to put in stuff they just found cool. Like a functioning flame thrower in Assassin's Creed Revelations. If they want to show a fictional world where humans used to be less shitty about gender issues? *shrug*
And this is even easy to explain in the confines of the game: Abstergo is making this into a propaganda tool for a modern day audience, and they are removing things from history that might cause any kind of friction for that purpose.

 

[kadotsu]

Never sugarcoat hard historical realities, otherwise you are just as euphemistic as the idiots that write this about genocide:

 

[Deleted member 1067]

*shrug*

I don't think anyone is going in to an assassin's Creed game for a history lesson on gender dynamics, nor expects one. Let them do whatever they want with it. It's all in good fun and their heart's in the right place so who cares.

I mean at the point the game launched like 4 months ago and no one has noticed I can't really imagine that this being something to ruffle anyone's feathers too much unless they have an agenda anyways so... >.>

 

[Nyteshade517]

"We should add a Discovery Mode to teach the players about the history & culture of Egypt"
'Brilliant idea!"

~sees a vase with only a boy going to school~

"This may hurt someone's feelings"
"But it's a part of the history, we can't just cha--"
"But feelings"
"..."

 

[Deleted member 8196]

This makes zero sense, really, you don't have to change history facts for the sake of diversity.
If you are going to make a documentary you have to bring true facts and show the society of that period.

 

[KiNolin]

Assassine's Creed is fantasy anyway...

 

[Dr. Caroll]

Not going to lie. I'm pretty sure that's a parody.

They have done jokes like that in the old AC games too.

Click to shrink...

It feels like a little dumb joke we're not in on because I'm fairly confident nobody looking at that pot in the game world could tell the difference between the boys and the girls. And yea, the Assassin's Creed games have often featured fourth wall breaking jokes that people shouldn't take seriously. It's a bit silly, but so is getting worked up about it.

 

[Neural]

The whole point of Discovery Tour is to educate players on the history of Egypt, so at the very least they should show the original artwork for the artifact alongside the in-game version.

Click to shrink...

Aren't they? That's the original vase picture, depicting two girls dancing. It also says the photo is from British Museum.

 

[Phawx]

Damn.

Like I wouldn't have even inspected it in game. I'd probably just smash it hoping some rupees would burst out of it.

But to think a team of people were debating on how to portray something because they were concerned about potential backlash, that's got to suck.

 

[get2sammyb]

This has got to be a parody?

Because I've no idea why they'd go to the trouble of creating an educational mode for their game which they intend to be used in schools, only to undermine everything by altering history and flagrantly drawing attention to that.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Yeah, no, I'm sorry. You shouldn't look at historical period with the perspective of someone living in the 21st century. It's not only inaccurate it also devalues all the positive developments in social life that happened since ancient times.

 

[Zappy]

Serious question. If they'd only shown boys on that vase would anyone, even; a) notice b) care c) be offended?

The answer to all three is resoundingly no!

 

[julia crawford]

"We should add a Discovery Mode to teach the players about the history & culture of Egypt"
'Brilliant idea!"

~sees a vase with only a boy going to school~

"This may hurt someone's feelings"
"But it's a part of the history, we can't just cha--"
"But feelings"
"..."

Click to shrink...

They're saying it right there that the asset is not representative of its origins, and explaining what the deviation is. They're not omitting anything.

Serious question. If they'd only shown boys on that vase would anyone, even; a) notice b) care c) be offended?

The answer to all three is resoundingly no!

Click to shrink...

So what you're saying is that they made a choice that represents their own values, which is pretty much the best perception they can have.

 

[captainpat]

Unless I'm playing an educational game I don't really care for historical accuracy

 

[FrequentFlyer]

Entirely depends on case-by-case. Generally, developers can do whatever they want, artistic vision and all that. Both directions are fine, with some things to note. If you're going to "2018-wash" history, then make that clear and don't pretend like that's how it actually was. If you're going to present historical realities as they were, maybe also put a disclaimer about that. It shouldn't be necessary, but too often people call something racist because it depicts the actual racist history. There is no obligation to sugarcoat things for an oversensitive modern audience. Things were shitty, it is perfectly fine to show that. Just don't glorify it.

One negative example to me was Battlefield 1. Heavy marketing focus on the afro-american US soldiers (in US gear), when in reality they were discriminated so much they actually were removed and had to fight under french banner. And instead of putting a disclaimer or something of sorts, they constantly padded themselves on the back for their authenticity and showing so many diverse perspectives (while completely glossing over any central power perspective).

 

[Nyteshade517]

They're saying it right there that the asset is not representative of its origins, and explaining what the deviation is. They're not omitting anything.

Click to shrink...

that's the point...why make a mode intended to educate players about a specific culture or history if you're not going to use the items that represent that actual culture or history

it defeats the purpose right at the start

 

[Yurinka]

I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity and all that. But this feels silly. If you're recreating something historic and that actually existed, don't be scared of showing how society worked at the time.

Click to shrink...

I agree. If it's something that breaks gameplay for me it's ok to modify it. But for something like this I think it would have been better to keep it as it was.

Edit: Just saw the mod edit in the OP, seeing it in context makes more sense. But still wouldn't have changed it.

 

[Silky]

Could you imagine being that caught in your ways for """historical accuracy""" advocation and trying to convince yourself that what Ubisoft is doing is actually wrong

They're admitting it clear as day that they had this changed for a reason and are absolutely well aware of it's origins

No one's gonna get pressed about a vase for a digital learning tour lol, unless there are more "inclusive" edits like this one.

 

[Deleted member 14080]

I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity and all that. But this feels silly. If you're recreating something historic and that actually existed, don't be scared of showing how society worked at the time.

It doesn't mean you approve of it.

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

Well, considering the Animus is a simulation within the game anyway (and the unreliability of the simulation has been a plot point in a lot of the games), they can do what they want.

As long as they explain when and how they deviated from historical accuracy in this new educational 'tourist' mode, I've got no problem with it.

 

[freakybj]

If we whitewash history to forget the mistakes of the past, we are destined to repeat them again.

 

[julia crawford]

that's the point...why make a mode intended to educate players about a specific culture or history if you're not going to use the items that represent that actual culture or history

it defeats the purpose right at the start

Click to shrink...

This is one asset of probably a thousand others, and the mode is already lenient about explaining the development process and its influence on their representation of Egypt. The mode isn't just to educate about Egypt, it's also about the game's development. The announcement trailer goes over this.

Also people are not dumb and will know to learn from other texts too. Just like all kinds of textbooks, this is a learning aid, not a dictionary.

 

[Crossing Eden]

"We should add a Discovery Mode to teach the players about the history & culture of Egypt"
'Brilliant idea!"

~sees a vase with only a boy going to school~

"This may hurt someone's feelings"
"But it's a part of the history, we can't just cha--"
"But feelings"
"..."

Click to shrink...

You realize that all of the assets in Discovery mode are from the main game right? They didn't change that just for discovery mode, that was one of many changes made for the sake of the game's world.

I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity and all that. But this feels silly. If you're recreating something historic and that actually existed, don't be scared of showing how society worked at the time.

Click to shrink...

Yea don't be afraid of showing how society worked at the time, meawhile Aya....:

AC has never prided itself on being 100% historically accurate and has, even since the first game, provided a less severe version of the eras we visit.

Well, considering the Animus is a simulation within the game anyway (and the unreliability of the simulation has been a plot point in a lot of the games), they can do what they want.

As long as they explain when and how they deviated from historical accuracy in this new educational 'tourist' mode, I've got no problem with it.

Click to shrink...

They do already do this. This thread is gonna be a fucking exercise in thinly veiled "This is too PC" dog whistling. You saw the same kind of complaints with fragile gamers complaining about too many of the enemies in Syndicate being women and how's that's "unrealistic."

 

[Truant]

 

[snausages]

Seems kind of silly.

WB have this disclaimer on Tom&Jerry cartoons where they preserve but contextualise the problematics aspects which I think is a better approach. Giving awareness and providing criticism.

The past is a different country and such.

 

[Bán]

Patently ridiculous, but they're free to do what they want.

But as someone who knows little about that time, I would see stuff like this and assume that there had been gender equality in education back then. It just doesn't feel right to mislead people like that.

Also, surely women know that there was a lot of sexism in historical eras? Aren't they saying that said women are too fragile to deal with that while playing a game? None of it comes off well to me.

 

[Nairume]

They contextualized it clearly and in a way that justified it enough. I have no issue with what they did.

 

[Deleted member 21380]

I saw this image today and I really didn't know how to feel about it.

I am for diversity and inclusion but is this going too far?

Click to shrink...

They should have shown the original artwork and explained the sexism in the context of the times in the text. This take here is just... weird.

 

[Valkyr1983]

I'm all for inclusiveness and diversity and all that. But this feels silly. If you're recreating something historic and that actually existed, don't be scared of showing how society worked at the time.

It doesn't mean you approve of it.

Click to shrink...

This is the correct opinion/answer

 

[aerie]

I mean, its fine within the context of an Assassins Creed video game, or even any modern game that is attempting to approach historical settings, perhaps Kingdom Come could learned something from such an approach. If it was a museum, or history text book, that would be different. They also state the changes that are made, and why, which is the right thing to do if they are making such changes. I think they handled it very well when making something for today's world, today's market, thats not revisionism.

 

[Platy]

that's the point...why make a mode intended to educate players about a specific culture or history if you're not going to use the items that represent that actual culture or history

it defeats the purpose right at the start

Click to shrink...

It is a SEPARATE MODE. Separate to the mode where you can fall dozens of meters and survive. Separate from the mode where you can control a fucking eagle like if you were separating your soul from your body. A separate mode from the totally recreating something historic and that actually existed depiction of egypt of FIGHTING GIANT ANIMALS

But yeah, it is girls studying that is pushing realism out of beliavable

 

[Booker.DeWitt]

How is this going too far?

They both show inclusion AND if people want to know, they have this text showing what was like at the older times.

What do you prefer? Sexist art in a game with cyclops and people permanently dyed white with the ashes of their loved ones even after LOTS of rain and swiming?
Most games are already ignoring realism for much shittier reasons than making the world a better place

Click to shrink...

so we need to change reality and history to accommodate this?

Are we supposed to forget , ignore or change the mistakes of the past so we don't offend people nowadays?

So what is next?
- change historical points of the holocaust so we don't offend Jews?
- Ignore the women's abuse we see in certain cultures/religion so we don't offend those people?

This is silly. I am sorry.

The errors that happened in the past are important and should be emphasized, so we don't commit the same mistakes again. We should tell this openly, show how messed up history has been to certain people, and then move forward. If we change/forget the past, we have no future

 

[Q_Pippin]

What do they mean by both genders ?

Not very inclusive

 

[Vipu]

Hitler/Nazis were nice people and equal to all kinds of people!
Maybe they will hire me for next Wolfenstein.

 

[Famassu]

And that's what we get if everybody is afraid somebody might be offended.

Click to shrink...

OH THE HORRORS, an object in the game world depicts women as well. Our societies are surely coming to an end.

You'll live through this tragedy and blight that evil feminazis have brought upon your sensitive eyes to see. We're here for you.

 

[Acido]

It's harmless. Ignore it. Y'all really think we're going to forget history because of video games when we still have reminiscing issues today? Next.

 

[Dyle]

A little odd, but they're upfront about their changes, so it's not a problem.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

They do already do this. This thread is gonna be a fucking exercise in thinly veiled "This is too PC" dog whistling.

Click to shrink...

I never said they didn't, and I don't appreciate the accusation there!

 

[Platy]

so we need to change reality and history to accommodate this?

Are we supposed to forget , ignore or change the mistakes of the past so we don't offend people nowadays?

So what is next?
- change historical points of the holocaust so we don't offend Jews?
- Ignore the women's abuse we see in certain cultures/religion so we don't offend those people?

This is silly. I am sorry.

The errors that happened in the past are important and should be emphasized, so we don't commit the same mistakes again. We should tell this openly, show how messed up history has been to certain people, and then move forward. If we change/forget the past, we have no future

Click to shrink...

If they were doing something really realistic, yeah i would have agreed with you.

But you don't complain about Wolfenstein New Order being unrealistic.... because it is not.
Assassin's Creed deals with ALIENS and MAGICAL ARTIFACTS and SUPERNATURAL STUFF.
It is NOT realistic

So is the thing Wolfenstein does better is ...creating a reality where minorities are MORE fucked?
Because it doesn't even tell what is changed from reality