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UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)
- Thread starter Uzzy
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I mean for fucksake demon Hitler himself is literally used regularly as an example of a great orator and his name will be a byword for monstrous evil until the human race inevitably dies from self-inflicted disasters. This thread is so fucking tedious at times. We all know Blair is a corrupt liar and a war criminal. He is still an example of a charismatic leader and great public speaker and the only reason to bring up his war mongering is to deflect from that point.
Didn't the lib dems enter a coalition and not manage to pass it through which is was literally their only reasonable time to do so because they ain't leading a government.
Corbyn really should be a lot more like Tony Blair and Hitler.
I know nothing of Scottish politics, so forgive the question, why are Labour doing so poor in Soctland?
On a surface level, it feels like most Scots should hate the Tories. Are most voters drifting over to the SNP?
Second time in a day i'm going to ask you to stop being a prick. I'm sure it's really emotionally satisfying to make cheap jibes that deliberately avoid the point but it's juvenile and pathetic. I expect this garbage from SMD, I know you're smarter than this.
I mean, I really don't get your point. If someone had initially brought up the relative oratory skills of Corbyn and Hitler instead on Corbyn and Blair, that the holocaust would be out of the realms of fair discussion?
Labour joined up with Tories officially in a campaign against independence. This killed them, because they worked with Tories, the campaign was full of lies and years of rot in Scottish labour where votes were taken for granted.
The SNP has been the largest party here by far for a good while now, everyone else just has a few seats.
Obviously. It completely avoids the actual point being made, which is that if Corbyn had a bit more of their skill and adroitness in public speaking that he'd be more popular. No one is suggesting he should be more like them in other ways. No one is suggesting that warmongering and the deaths of millions is Good Actually.
I don't even know why we're having the oratory discussion, Corbyn being a greater orator would barely if it all help him. Have you seen what he's up against? Boris Johnson's total void of oratory skills has him up in the polls against Corbyn and his oratory skills are so atrocious he makes Theresa May's seem competent.
He's the worst orator in the office of Prime minister for decades.
He's the worst orator in the office of Prime minister for decades.
BBC keep letting Tories rant about Labour and not talk about they own but soon as a Labour start talking about Tories and bad they been the host stop them and say "let talk about yours"
Jeremy Corbyn has the best policies, but how am I supposed to vote for them if I'm not awed by his speech????
I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but It's fucking gross to dispassionately discuss the political lessons people can learn from Adolf Hitler divorced from the monsterous things he did, no matter what the actual point being made is.
I'm so anxious over this election. It really is epochal in terms of consequences of either party winning. I, of course, support Labour — especially with their now socialist vision for the country.
I am always dismayed that in reality it is likely the Tories who will win. I'm so depressed over this that it's impacting my daily life. I really don't want to live through hard Brexit, 5 years of deregulation and war on workers' rights. Yet, I can't escape this feeling of existential threat. Not sure what to do. I'm just dismayed.
Can anyone offer words of comfort, lol?
I am always dismayed that in reality it is likely the Tories who will win. I'm so depressed over this that it's impacting my daily life. I really don't want to live through hard Brexit, 5 years of deregulation and war on workers' rights. Yet, I can't escape this feeling of existential threat. Not sure what to do. I'm just dismayed.
Can anyone offer words of comfort, lol?
He just needs to kill a few thousand innocents here and there and his polling would be up to 90% I bet.
Oratory doesn't seem all that important right now anyway. Trump talks like he has dementia
and Boris just stutters and occasionally says a catchphrase some spad drilled into him for example.
The Clintons and Blair type oratory skills have been put into the same "fake" politician basket as the rest of the overly stage managed stuff.
and Boris just stutters and occasionally says a catchphrase some spad drilled into him for example.
The Clintons and Blair type oratory skills have been put into the same "fake" politician basket as the rest of the overly stage managed stuff.
All I can do is tell you to fight, comrade.
Despair is the weapon of the enemy, always has been - "There is no alternative" is the war cry of those who profit from the status quo. There's always an alternative, if you lift the banner and bear it onwards.
Doesn't matter how good a speaker you are if the media is stacked against you from day one.
May was dull as fuck, got more votes than Labour. Boris is famous for being a bumbling, racist moron and is probably going to win a majority.
The overstated importance of being a good orator is just some chattering classes nonsense.
Yes, yes, presentation doesn't matter it's all about the ideas maaaaaaaaan. I can tell none of you work in marketing. Slick operations look better and are received better. Why do you think Momentum's videos are so good? They've got some really talented filmmakers and editors behind them.
Like it or not, most people don't spend all day living and breathing politics like we do. Their opinions and voting intentions are informed by quick, surface level impressions, and that's where being a skillful orator matters, even if Corbyn probably is better than Johnson.
Oh grow up.
Like it or not, most people don't spend all day living and breathing politics like we do. Their opinions and voting intentions are informed by quick, surface level impressions, and that's where being a skillful orator matters, even if Corbyn probably is better than Johnson.
Oh grow up.
Record numbers of young people are registering to vote. Labour were further behind at this stage in 2017. In the latest Kantar poll Labour were actually ahead before likelihood to vote weighting was applied, so it's all to play for.
Noone is saying presentation doesn't matter, people are saying he has far better presentation than his opposition but he's not up in the polls. If faced with results like that you don't normally go "hey the reason he's doing badly is because he's not good enough at presentation!", rather than thinking their may be some other underlining reason for his poor performance in the polls.
Oh sure I don't particularly think Corbyn being a superior orator would make that much difference. It's Zappy who pushed this idea. He's down in the polls because of Brexit, anti-semitism, and a relentless smear campaign. I just got irritated by all the deflecting from the point being made.
Soz, I really can't separate them. I get that a lot of people like the savvy speaker MP types, but I'm far more interested in a politician's principles and policies than their media training or PR history. I'm just not wooed by it, most MPs can't do it, it comes across as fake (see Swinson), like the thumb pointing bullshit, and Blair was full of those mannerisms. Cameron basically copied all of them.
Ah, didn't know Labour and the Tories joined up on the referendum.
I suppose I just find it surprising that the Tories have made any headway in Scotland at any point. I know they should lose all those seats this time but I find it hard to understand how they are even a viable concern.
Then again, Wales largely voted for Brexit, despite being stupidly reliant on EU money, so maybe I'm just overestimating people.
I quite agree. The problem is, you and I are not most people. I still know a few left and centre-left people who for some reason think Cameron was ok because he was a slick operator, even if intellectually they think austerity was atrocious and Brexit is a disaster and Cameron is the man responsible.
I thought it was known he was offered one for standing down? I thought I saw a news story regarding that yesterday.
...I've just noticed that the panels on the bus make her look like a flappy-jawed Canadian.
My days of not taking her seriously are definitely coming to a middle.
Feel a lot of this "presentation" debate is moot when you've got papers and right wing media that'll paint Corbyn as a pantomime villain regardless, and Twitter centrists getting huffy because he won't do exactly what they want him to do.
Do any of you find Keir Starmer much more of a slick political operator? The Tories still got away with directly manipulating footage of him to look silly.
Do any of you find Keir Starmer much more of a slick political operator? The Tories still got away with directly manipulating footage of him to look silly.
He probably has been. But all that has been confirmed is he was offered one for standing down everywhere the Tories are targeting. Not just the seats the Tories previously won in 2017.
Unfortunately, probably is an overestimate. The crappy seaside town my parents retired to is falling apart at the seams, the only serious development the town has had in more than a decade was EU funded, and now probably won't be finished, because the area is the kind of region that heavily voted leave. The country has plenty of places just like it.
I feel the same, so you're not alone at least...
Wish I had something nicer and more optimistic to say. I'm terrified of what I'm hearing about a US UK trade deal. But things may be bad for a while, maybe one day years from now it'll improve. People can only be pushed so far.
He's a great talker and questioner, kinda a given when he was a widely respected DPP he would be great at that.
Don't know much more than that, because those things have been getting rejected by voters for the last 5-10 years around the world. The pr trained, good speechmaking and stuff like thumb pointing have been seen as fake by voters.
I don't know if slick is the right word, he's certainly quicker on his feet and more popular generally but he also doesn't have quite the same PR-man vibe as Blair or Cameron. His relative popularity probably a lot to do with not having been targeted to nearly the same degree as Corbyn, though he also doesn't have nearly so many obvious weak points.
Do you think the Tories got away with it? Backlash was pretty big, and I doubt it'll have shifted the needle much.
I hear ya. It's distracting me all the time; I'm already insecurely employed as it is. I'm hoping for a hung parliament or a lack of a majority. But even then, Boris would still get his 'deal' through due to those in the HoC wanting it over and done with.
They probably got away with it with the people those ads were really targeting. Low information and attention voters.
They've learned from the US that it doesn't matter if your shit is debunked after the fact, because a lot won't see the debunking or care.
I think the Tories have really misjudged how damaging this would be. Even if they're right and the weather predictions were wrong and it shouldn't have been as bad they should have still made a big deal out of helping early. It's horrible to say but disasters can really help politicians if they play it right but the inaction has made them appear heartless (they are) and without direction (they also are). It's particularly bad as these areas are where they need to be picking up seats if they want a majority. Really can't believe how well they've played into the oppositions hand.
If only Corbyn would say that billionaires shouldn't exist with the charisma of a Tony Blair, then the Murdoch papers would support him.
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