UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)

FliX · Nov 22, 2019

The recent Vox Pop from the Guardian is kind of interesting and terrifying.

They make a big point of the fact that things are not as they used to be and it is impossible to predict how the chips will fall this time.
That said. There is a homeless (?) man who will vote CON or BXP and I cannot help but despair.
There is a student, that really doesn't look the part, who wants to be an investment banker because she loves money. 😶
All the middle class tories seem to be going to the Lib Dems.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

Geoff said:
Any part you might want to live in with a family.

Lets say three bedrooms with some outside space

Depends what rules out places for people. Like if it is living near black people... then sure 😂

danowat · Nov 22, 2019

'London' is a very big area lol

Geoff · Nov 22, 2019

Beefy said:
Depends what rules out places for people. Like if it is living near black people... then sure 😂

If living near black people is something you want to avoid, London is probably a non-starter. Which doesn't mean that there aren't places you might want to avoid for non-melanin related reasons.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

danowat said:
'London' is a very big area lol

What people always forget. I think most people only think of London centre when talking of London.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

Geoff said:
If living near black people is something you want to avoid, London is probably a non-starter. Which doesn't mean that there aren't places you might want to avoid for non-melanin related reasons.

Centre of London is pretty black person free in certain areas. It's where you get all the rich white people.

Mars People · Nov 22, 2019

SurrenderDorothy said:
Welcome to Hellworld. Where the many constantly vote against their best interests.

I've had so many thoughts on this issue.
Trying to wrap my mind around why people knowingly vote against their own best interests.
That they would hurt themselves seemingly just to know that someone else is hurting more.
Never mind voting to lift everyone up, its seemingly voting just to push everyone down, themselves included.
Baffling, bizarre and very, very disturbing.

Khoryos · Nov 22, 2019

Beefy said:
Centre of London is pretty black person free in certain areas. It's where you get all the rich white people.

Does anybody actually live in the centre of London? When I was there for Uni (Barking and Docklands) it seemed like a housing desert, but that was over a decade ago now.

Stuart444 · Nov 22, 2019

dan2026 said:
I've had so many thoughts on this issue.
Trying to wrap my mind around why people knowingly vote against their own best interests.
That they would hurt themselves seemingly just to know that someone else is hurting more.
Never mind voting to lift everyone up, its seemingly voting just to push everyone down, themselves included.
Baffling, bizarre and very, very disturbing.

I've thought about this more times than I would like and I still just don't get it.

It's just... urgh :/

danowat · Nov 22, 2019

Beefy said:
What people always forget. I think most people only think of London centre when talking of London.

I had family live in Stratford in the 80's and 90's, before the gentrification drove the house prices up 10 fold.

Even if I worked in London, I wouldn't live in London when they are so many commuter belt options that are way cheaper.

SlumberingGiant · Nov 22, 2019

dan2026 said:
I've had so many thoughts on this issue.
Trying to wrap my mind around why people knowingly vote against their own best interests.
That they would hurt themselves seemingly just to know that someone else is hurting more.
Never mind voting to lift everyone up, its seemingly voting just to push everyone down, themselves included.
Baffling, bizarre and very, very disturbing.

It's not that baffling when we have lived in an extremely mean and nasty political climate since the 80's. Thatcher turned everything into a competition.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

Khoryos said:
Does anybody actually live in the centre of London? When I was there for Uni (Barking and Docklands) it seemed like a housing desert, but that was over a decade ago now.

Mainly whole complexa owned by banks and Russian's. But depending on what you call the centre there are mainly high end bankers there. As well as the sons of millionaires that have don't know what a job is. I still get weird looks in some parts of London like am not meant to be there.

Mars People · Nov 22, 2019

SlumberingGiant said:
It's not that baffling when we have lived in an extremely mean and nasty political climate since the 80's. Thatcher turned everything into a competition.

But don't people want to get out of it?
Surely most right thinking people want a better life for themselves at the very least.
And yet it feels like so many people just want to dig further and further into a pit of misery.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

danowat said:
I had family live in Stratford in the 80's and 90's, before the gentrification drove the house prices up 10 fold.

Even if I worked in London, I wouldn't live in London when they are so many commuter belt options that are way cheaper.

London traffic is a mess, it is why I walk everywhere when am up there.

RedSparrows · Nov 22, 2019

dan2026 said:
But don't people want to get out of it?
Surely most right thinking people want a better life for themselves at the very least.
And yet it feels like so many people just want to dig further and further into a pit of misery.

I find it helpful to at minimum assume they don't see things as a 'pit of misery'. At least try and comprehend the worldview in its own terms. I mean, I disagree with any Tory voter, naturally, but to assume it's a matter of false consciousness, or at the least, self-evidently wrongheaded thinking isn't always helpful.

I remember talking to someone who once explained his life philosophy: he decided between what was 'right' and what was 'fair'. I didn't have the heart to argue he was approaching it oddly, but it was a good lesson in realising others simply don't even see basic concepts in the same ways.

Khoryos · Nov 22, 2019

Beefy said:
Mainly whole complexa owned by banks and Russian's. But depending on what you call the centre there are mainly high end bankers there. As well as the sons of millionaires that have don't know what a job is. I still get weird looks in some parts of London like am not meant to be there.

To be fair, I tend to mentally replace "Centre of" with "City Of" when it comes to London, which would make Farringdon a suburb which is clearly ridiculous.

Mars People · Nov 22, 2019

RedSparrows said:
I find it helpful to at minimum assume they don't see things as a 'pit of misery'. At least try and comprehend the worldview in its own terms. I mean, I disagree with any Tory voter, naturally, but to assume it's a matter of false consciousness, or at the least, self-evidently wrongheaded thinking isn't always helpful.

I remember talking to someone who once explained his life philosophy: he decided between what was 'right' and what was 'fair'. I didn't have the heart to argue he was approaching it oddly, but it was a good lesson in realising others simply don't even see basic concepts in the same ways.

I can understand people seeing things in different ways of course.
But I also can't see people voting that way as anything other than wrongheaded thinking.
Seemingly voting out of malice or bigotry or spite or some sort of twisted world view can't be seen as anything other than wrong in my book. Its not right or fair, to themselves or to anyone.

I don't know. Its getting me really down. Feels like I live in a world of madmen.
But then if the majority don't see it my way maybe I am the mad one after all.

Deleted member 18857 · Nov 22, 2019

elio said:
I just hope others in similar situations as mine can see how higher taxation is pretty much necessary at this point. It's time for everyone to pull together and move forward.

As I was saying earlier, there are perfectly selfish reasons for wanting to pay more tax the more you earn. People who don't see that it's in their best interests to vote for more taxation on themselves infuriate me.

DavidDesu · Nov 22, 2019

Xevross said:
Yeah, people just need to realise what they have. My mum raised me and my sister on her own on NHS band 4 pay (so now up to £23k a year). Of course she had the help of some great things like child benefit, and my dad paid her a bit of money too, but she still had less than £25k a year net.

I have so much admiration for how she managed to raise us fairly comfortably, despite having so little money relatively, on top of paying off her mortgage on a decent 3-bed semi. Personally I've been living off a total of £19k a year as a student for 4 years, paying London rent (£760 a month) and I'm extremely comfortable, because I'm financially responsible. In fact I'm saving a decent amount for a deposit.

People who have even £40k+ a year yet claim to be struggling are absolutely pissing it away somewhere. And the top 5% of people who earn £80k+ can sod off if they try to claim they're struggling, its completely their own fault if that's the case.

Labour's proposed tax is 5% of earnings above £80k. Nobody should have any problem with that. If anyone tried to argue with me that someone on £100k a year can't afford an extra £84 a month I'd laugh in their face.

Yeah this is what gets me, people who should have a shed load of disposable income really cannot grumble about the amounts these tax hikes actually amount to for them. They would likely spend it on one frivolous lunch out in a nice restaurant. Meanwhile there's millions out there where 84 quid would be a bit of a weight off their shoulders.

*Splinter said:
27k and honestly very comfortable. When people say they feel poor on triple my income I can only assume they're fucking stupid.

Yeah far too many people seem to want to live well outside their means or at the very least live it up keeping up with the Joneses. I know a couple both with good wages who bought an expensive 4 bedroom house. It's pretty large inside although they don't even have a garden and aren't planning on having a family as far as I'm aware. They could have a still very nice 2 bed apartment or tenement for half what they paid. I just think of all that money I couldn't even imagine in my wildest dreams spent on what to me feels like showing off. It's their money of course. If I earned double what I do now (£15k) I would feel absolutely loaded. I don't get people on that kind of salary who complain. I have a decent enough 2 bed flat in a high rise. It is nice inside and the rent is reasonable I guess. If I even moved out it would only be for a modest upgrade as we're happy here. All that extra cash would mean we could literally go on the most amazing holidays 2/3 times a year and actually enjoy life. I just don't get where that money goes for other people on way better salaries

Timmm said:
2nd edit: I honestly would also welcome some kind of system where salaries and tax records are public for every person (which I believe Norway does), people shouldn't be afraid of discussing them, and doing so only helps employers to keep them low.

I think this would be good. It absolutely helps keep people in their own bubble when they don't understand their position in society, as that Question Time 80k guy proved. Employees could compare wages, and it would absolutely be a game changer for wage discrepancies between men and women and the rest of the discrimination circus out there.

Geoff · Nov 22, 2019

Beefy said:
Centre of London is pretty black person free in certain areas. It's where you get all the rich white people.

Places like Highgate you don't see many black people, I suppose. There are estates everywhere though not that I am saying that black people only live on estates!

But you need to be pretty far out of central London to be finding houses for less than £500k.

Arkestry · Nov 22, 2019

dan2026 said:
I've had so many thoughts on this issue.
Trying to wrap my mind around why people knowingly vote against their own best interests.
That they would hurt themselves seemingly just to know that someone else is hurting more.
Never mind voting to lift everyone up, its seemingly voting just to push everyone down, themselves included.
Baffling, bizarre and very, very disturbing.

There's a really weird bias that I read about in Thinking Fast and Slow I think where they ran a psychological hypothetical for people that put forward two scenarios:

You and everyone around you receives a huge amount of money, something like £1 million or something. But all the same amount.
You receive £100,000 and everyone around you receives £50,000.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, a large amount of people opted for the latter. People would rather be relatively poorer as long as they're better off than others in their orbit.

Stuart444 · Nov 22, 2019

Arkestry said:
Perhaps unsurprisingly, a large amount of people opted for the latter. People would rather be relatively poorer as long as they're better off than others in their orbit.

That is just pathetically sad x.x

Mars People · Nov 22, 2019

Arkestry said:
There's a really weird bias that I read about in Thinking Fast and Slow I think where they ran a psychological hypothetical for people that put forward two scenarios:

You and everyone around you receives a huge amount of money, something like £1 million or something. But all the same amount.

You receive £100,000 and everyone around you receives £50,000.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, a large amount of people opted for the latter. People would rather be relatively poorer as long as they're better off than others in their orbit.

Yeah I remember reading similar studies.
It doesn't bode well for the human race.

Arkestry · Nov 22, 2019

Geoff said:
Places like Highgate you don't see many black people, I suppose. There are estates everywhere though not that I am saying that black people only live on estates!

But you need to be pretty far out of central London to be finding houses for less than £500k.

Not sure I'd say Highgate is center of London. And there's a large POC communty in Archway which is right next to it.

iapetus · Nov 22, 2019

Geoff said:
But you need to be pretty far out of central London to be finding houses for less than £500k.

At which point you can start to factor in the cost of commuting into central London for work. Which is pretty horrible.

Geoff · Nov 22, 2019

Arkestry said:
Not sure I'd say Highgate is center of London. And there's a large POC communty in Archway which is right next to it.

I'm struggling to think of areas in central central that don't have POC communities. Maybe Knightsbridge?

Arkestry · Nov 22, 2019

Geoff said:
I'm struggling to think of areas in central central that don't have POC communities. Maybe Knightsbridge?

Yeah I think if you're talking central central, Knightsbridge, South Ken, Belgravia, Chelsea, the uber rich places are probably proportinally more white. But a huge amount of those properties are vacant anyway. They're purely investment residential. I've been in plenty of them and at least half of every building is empty most of the time. It's gross.

elio · Nov 22, 2019

nekkid said:
I fall in that bracket, too. But I've got no issue with being taxed an extra 5% on anything above 80k.

Also, I'm working at a company that has absolutely thrived since the vote to leave the EU as our customers drive towards greater efficiency and automation (our YoY growth has far exceeded that of any other country). But I'd be voting against leaving, too, if I get the chance.

I come from a very low income, working class family, and that gives me a lot of perspective, I think.

The EU thing is strange. My company has done incredibly well too as they're a British company that mainly generates revenue in the US. The conversion back to sterling is great right now and the business is ticking over as well as ever.

SprachBrooks said:
Why are you worried about business? They don't give a fuck, win or lose. They can't leave so ultimately they'll accept the higher rates and move on. All this scaremongering is batshit crazy because business wouldn't invest more if tax rates were lower and they wouldn't pay you more — they'd just increase their profits.

For me it's an odd idea that multi nationals wouldn't respond to market forces. Why exactly can't these large corporations shift various investments and operations from one nation to another based on economic changes? They do it all the time.

Iggy said:
As I was saying earlier, there are perfectly selfish reasons for wanting to pay more tax the more you earn. People who don't see that it's in their best interests to vote for more taxation on themselves infuriate me.

Absolutely this! Some must think they live in a vacuum of personal success and security.

Geoff · Nov 22, 2019

Arkestry said:
Yeah I think if you're talking central central, Knightsbridge, South Ken, Belgravia, Chelsea, the uber rich places are probably proportinally more white. But a huge amount of those properties are vacant anyway. They're purely investment residential. I've been in plenty of them and at least half of every building is empty most of the time. It's gross.

Chelsea has black people. Though probably not nearly as many as most of London.

This conversation is a bit weird now, lol.

jem · Nov 22, 2019

SprachBrooks said:
This is bullshit. I took out a student loan and I'll be constantly in the red because of it. This is because of the bullshit interest I'm charged every period where I cannot actually begin paying it off quicker than the rates increasing. Student loans are a big deal — and abolishing tuition fees isn't just a vote winner, it stops parents, many of which cannot afford their child's tuition but still earn 'enough' from having to pay.

I don't understand how you can be in the red due to student loans. You don't pay anything back unless you're earning a salary above the threshold and even then it's only 9% of that amount.

Abolishing tuition fees will do literally nothing to help those on a low income. It's an expensive policy which will only help the upper middle classes.

Simon21 · Nov 22, 2019

dan2026 said:
Seemingly voting out of malice or bigotry or spite or some sort of twisted world view can't be seen as anything other than wrong in my book. Its not right or fair, to themselves or to anyone.

But surely the point RedSparrows is trying to make is that "malice or bigotry" etc. is a worldview that you're imposing on other people because you don't understand the way their views are formed. You see your own political opinions as self-evidently correct and therefore anyone who doesn't share them must be corrupted in some way.

For all his faults, something Tony Blair seemed to inately understand is that if you want to convince people not to vote Tory, you have to actually truly understand why they vote Tory in the first place. Assuming that any right thinking person should already agree with you, and that people must surely come to realise you're right eventually, is no route to changing people's minds.

(I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to pile on you btw, just a topic that's been on my mind for a while)

LiS Matt · Nov 22, 2019

jem said:
I don't understand how you can be in the red due to student loans. You don't pay anything back unless you're earning a salary above the threshold and even then it's only 9% of that amount.

Abolishing tuition fees will do literally nothing to help those on a low income. It's an expensive policy which will only help the upper middle classes.

Student loans can be weird. I know they don't count when you're making mortgage applications etc, and I'm pretty sure I'll never manage to pay my £18k+ back, but its still there in my mind that that's another amount of debt I owe

Aprikurt · Nov 22, 2019

LiS Matt said:
Student loans can be weird. I know they don't count when you're making mortgage applications etc, and I'm pretty sure I'll never manage to pay my £18k+ back, but its still there in my mind that that's another amount of debt I owe

Mate it's still £70+ a month I get taken out of my pocket. If I couldn't pay it back I wouldn't, but it's still noticeable.

jem · Nov 22, 2019

LiS Matt said:
Student loans can be weird. I know they don't count when you're making mortgage applications etc, and I'm pretty sure I'll never manage to pay my £18k+ back, but its still there in my mind that that's another amount of debt I owe

The way it works means that it's not really a debt though. It's basically just a tax for going to Uni.

There are certainly issues with it and it could be argued that it'd be better to just replace it with an actual tax. However, what labour are proposing* is expensive and doesn't help those who actually need it. The money would be far better spent elsewhere.

*I'm only referring to abolishing tuition fees here, the policies on maintenance grants and student rent controls are great.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

Simon21 said:
But surely the point RedSparrows is trying to make is that "malice or bigotry" etc. is a worldview that you're imposing on other people because you don't understand the way their views are formed. You see your own political opinions as self-evidently correct and therefore anyone who doesn't share them must be corrupted in some way.

For all his faults, something Tony Blair seemed to inately understand is that if you want to convince people not to vote Tory, you have to actually truly understand why they vote Tory in the first place. Assuming that any right thinking person should already agree with you, and that people must surely come to realise you're right eventually, is no route to changing people's minds.

(I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to pile on you btw, just a topic that's been on my mind for a while)

People mostly vote Tory for following reasons:

1) They are well off enough to live comfortably, so don't care about the ones suffering.
2) They hate immigrants.
3) They hate poc and Muslims

Only reason Blair did well with Tories is because he moved just right enough they loved him.

twofold · Nov 22, 2019

Aprikurt said:
Mate it's still £70+ a month I get taken out of my pocket. If I couldn't pay it back I wouldn't, but it's still noticeable.

So that probably puts you on £30-35k? Would you be earning that if you didn't have a degree?

Graduates on average earn £170-250k extra over non graduates over their lifetimes (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40965479) - pretty great return on investment, in my opinion.

Timmm · Nov 22, 2019

Spookie said:
To follow up on the conversation about wages these days here is an anecdote about a conversation that started here at work: I'm currently unhappy about our pay (I've been here a while so I'm at about £23k~ with bonuses, over time and anti social hours). Now a lot of staff have left for, lets call them, a major infrastructure provider for telecommunications and have jumped to a £30k~ for less work, more social hours and less pressure. We however have more tasks, roles and targets placed on us for the same wage. However I was told by a manager I should be thankful that I have a job that pays as well as it does and other people are currently doing the same work for £15-18k.

Remember, it's in your manager's interest to keep good staff around on as little money as possible, whether that is because they don't want to have to fight to justify it to more senior people, have to manage a department budget, or even are a shareholder in the company. Even if you get on with them personally, they aren't your natural ally here

DavidDesu said:
I think this would be good. It absolutely helps keep people in their own bubble when they don't understand their position in society, as that Question Time 80k guy proved. Employees could compare wages, and it would absolutely be a game changer for wage discrepancies between men and women and the rest of the discrimination circus out there.

Yep, it would have huge benefits for the bolded for sure. I also feel like it would have better effects for the way people think about money too- that information being open would help to shatter the illusion that an employee is paid what they are worth, when in reality its as low as a company can to keep things chugging along.

jem said:
I don't understand how you can be in the red due to student loans. You don't pay anything back unless you're earning a salary above the threshold and even then it's only 9% of that amount.

Abolishing tuition fees will do literally nothing to help those on a low income. It's an expensive policy which will only help the upper middle classes.

You're correct here about who benefits more, but i support writing off existing student loans just because they were the wrong thing to do in the first place. People should be taxed on their wealth, not on how much they cost the state. A person who doesn't go to uni and earns 100k a year should be paying more in taxes (if you humour me and consider a student loan effectively another tax) than someone who does the sensible thing and goes to uni, gets a degree in English or Maths or something, and then goes and does a normal office job for a "normal" wage

Deleted member 8463 · Nov 22, 2019

I think if you're going to charge people a tax for going to uni, something like the US system is actually more reasonable (hear me out..). Rather than charging every student the same £9k, it should be proportional to the job the degree enables. Engineers? Charge them more. Someone doing an arts degree? Don't.

Ravensmash · Nov 22, 2019

Git said:
I think if you're going to charge people a tax for going to uni, something like the US system is actually more reasonable (hear me out..). Rather than charging every student the same £9k, it should be proportional to the job the degree enables. Engineers? Charge them more. Someone doing an arts degree? Don't.

Possibly.

Although we probably need more Engineering graduates than Arts graduates.

And raising the fees for the former could turn people off.

But then, yes, the earning potential is typically higher. I'm torn.

Audioboxer · Nov 22, 2019

Scotland manages to cope with free University education, I'm sure England can too 🤷‍♂️

Timmm · Nov 22, 2019

Audioboxer said:
Scotland manages to cope with free University education, I'm sure England can too 🤷‍♂️

And lots of Europe, including countries that are both richer and poorer than the UK. My partners family in Spain see my student loan balance as insane

Hot Take: Education is good for a country even if the subject doesn't end up in a high paying career. It should be free, and paid for by people with the most wealth.

Deleted member 8463 · Nov 22, 2019

Ravensmash said:
Possibly.

Although we probably need more Engineering graduates than Arts graduates.

And raising the fees for the former could turn people off.

But then, yes, the earning potential is typically higher. I'm torn.

It's the opposite. We're running out of arts students.
My friend is an engineer and just got deported. So yeah, clearly not in that much need.

Audioboxer · Nov 22, 2019

Timmm said:
And lots of Europe, including countries that are both richer and poorer than the UK. My partners family in Spain see my student loan balance as insane

Hot Take: Education is good for a country even if the subject doesn't end up in a high paying career. It should be free, and paid for by people with the most wealth.

It's the countries investment in its population and due to us being human and not robots programmed to all do the same thing, diversity in courses will exist. Therefore, no one should be penalized based on their choice.

If you want to critique courses you can take it to the Universities/bodies that agree on exam/course curriculum. Not punish the student themselves due to selecting something.

Not everyone goes to University anyway even with it being tax-funded. You don't have to get a degree to enter the world of employment.

HotHamWater · Nov 22, 2019

excowboy · Nov 22, 2019

Anyone looking forward to Swinson and Johnson ganging up on Corbyn for refusing to say he'll nuke millions of people? Or am I expecting too much from this evening's shitshow?

Audioboxer · Nov 22, 2019

excowboy said:
Anyone looking forward to Swinson and Johnson ganging up on Corbyn for refusing to say he'll nuke millions of people? Or am I expecting too much from this evening's shitshow?

I look forward to any time there is a chance Swinson further owns herself in the polls.

Deleted member 8463 · Nov 22, 2019

HotHamWater said:

People in this country are fucking mental when it comes to the monarchy christ

Mackenzie · Nov 22, 2019

Git said:
People in this country are fucking mental when it comes to the monarchy christ

Have any of them suggested they would have no problem with Andrew having a go on their underage daughters yet?

I honestly would not be surprised.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 22, 2019

CD_93 · Nov 22, 2019

UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)

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