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MrMysterio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
Do you understand the role of the whip's office and what they do? That's not just in Parliament but in Congress as well. While Francis Urquhart or Frank Underwood are extreme examples, neither are too far off the truth. They exist to fight in the mud and drag as many MPs into it as possible so they can ensure absolute discipline and loyalty.

I don't even know how to reply to this.

You know your examples are fictional?

Guess we're okay with blackmailing now and using sexual harassment as leverage (instead of reporting it) because a fictional character got away with it in season two of House of Cards?
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
It's not a new thing but it really makes you think politics here and elsewhere are broken and pointless unless they stop doing it. They have no interest in doing the right thing. This will disappear, remember how the pedo thing is all but dead and apparently there was a dossier on who they were that amazingly vanished into thin air, how much do you want to bet that is was being held over people as well as protecting the establishment.
 

Rob_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
281
Edinburgh, Scotland
I don't even know how to reply to this.

You know your examples are fictional?

Guess we're okay with blackmailing now and using sexual harassment as leverage (instead of reporting it) because a fictional character got away with it in season two of House of Cards?

I do not think anyone was saying they are okay with it.

Merely that the fictional example, was a reflection of what actually goes on.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,188
London
The Damien Green story this morning is very, very thin. This situation will backfire horribly with the general populatace if certain sections of the commentariat try and push it.

He'll very likely win the libel action too.

Amazed to see the New Statesman crowd come out pushing for it. If I wanted to deliberately design a situation designed to derail any effort for change I couldn't do any better.
 

zomgbbqftw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
331
London, UK
The Damien Green story this morning is very, very thin. This situation will backfire horribly with the general populatace if certain sections of the commentariat try and push it.

He'll very likely win the libel action too.

Amazed to see the New Statesman crowd come out pushing for it. If I wanted to design a situation designed to derail any effort for change I couldn't do any better.

Hmm...
 

MrMysterio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
As in the House of Cards exists because it copies from real life, the original Francis Urquhart is based on Margaret Thatcher's chief whip, Tim Renton iirc.
I'm familiar with pop culture.
I just don't use it to trivialise real life events (if the list gets indeed verified as a blackmail tool made by the government).
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,031
I'm familiar with pop culture.
I just don't use it to trivialise real life events (if the list gets indeed verified as a blackmail tool made by the government).

I think you two have got your wires crossed. I believe - and I'm happy to be corrected - that zomg's point wasn't that this situation was good or desirable, just that it wasn't unusual or new.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,413
Isn't the sensationalist press in the UK mainly right wing? In the US it seems to be more balanced.
The print press is pretty right, with the exception of the Guardian for broadsheets and the Mirror for tabloids. The TV press is fairly centrist, although I'd suggest Sky News is further right than the rest (and indeed, more sensationalist than the rest. By which I mean 'employs Kay Burley')
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
Would add to the above that channel 4 news is fairly left of centre, I don't find myself watching ITV news a great deal so would struggle to find a box for it.

BBC is a broad church and generally defies categorisation. There are particularly strong feelings from a number of perspectives on perceived or genuine bias.
 

Deleted member 8197

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,340
The reason why the press is largely keeping out of it is because it's largely unverified, and without names and details the story is pretty thin (see the Guardian article). If they start going into what's on the list they'll be up for a libel suit within hours.

I also wouldn't put it past people to have injunctions out by now.
 

Plasma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,630
Am stunned this list isn't really being reported. Ok ok I understand it's not 100% confirmed in many instances however that never stopped the press from reporting. Right now front page of the sun is a claim that Kevin Spacey flashed a barman and paid him off with a watch.

Am raising a cynical eyebrow at the press on this story. A huge old boys club with the politicians, police, press all involved. This type of secrecy dates back through the ages and we have many horrible abuse claims as evidence.
They have to verify it first, these are serious accusations and could land the people reporting them in legal trouble if they're not true.
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
I'm familiar with pop culture.
I just don't use it to trivialise real life events (if the list gets indeed verified as a blackmail tool made by the government).

Whether or not it does (I'm sure it will), it is of no surprise that it exists. It is well known that the whips do this stuff. House of Cards is a perfectly reasonable reference to make. It may be fictional but it is also elucidating. The big issue here is that senior government figures may have known about instances of criminal activity and done nothing about it, leading to further harm. That fact that the whips use knowledge of extra-marital affairs to keep the rank and file in line is not a new revelation.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
The NY Observer has published the entire list, and Damian Green has now got Guido all hot and bothered: https://order-order.com/2017/11/01/damian-green-strong-sex-drive-just-not-disdriminating/

This is going to rumble on for a long while. Appropriately for the season there's liable to be lots of skeletons coming out of closets and fireworks.

The comments section there could be a really useful tool if we could section the people who post in them.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
It's worth pointing out that the only reason why the Whips were able to "blackmail" the MPs is because the MP's did something worthy of negative press and the whips were protecting them from the media. Yeah, blackmail's hardly wonderful, but they a) "did the crime" in the first place and b) could have come clean whenever they wanted - but they cared more about their political careers, and therefore put themselves into the pockets of the whips by their decision to hide it. As for criminal activity, they can't press charges on someones' behalf.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,188
London

Well I'd have thought it, but I think there are a few things count against it -

1. Green is suing, which I'm absolutely sure wouldn't be part of an "arrangement". It's career suicide for Maltby if she loses.

2. A few senior Tories on Twitter seem really genuinely fucked off by it in a way they probably wouldn't be.

3. Frankly, I wouldn't have thought that CCHQ assumed the likes of Helen Lewis and Caroline Cirado Pirez were stupid enough to charge headlong into such an obvious trap. But there you go.

The comments section there could be a really useful tool if we could section the people who post in them.

The comments section on Guido really is the sewer of the internet. It'll cause him problems eventually, especially the unmoderated and completely rampant homophobia.
 
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pulsemyne

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,634
She has a big bucket of shit to pour on her. This looks very bad for May. Asked once...coulodget away with. Asked three times though...
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Lisa Nandy just asked at PMQs why May (whilst home Secretary) dismissed her inquiries about whips using reports of sexual abuse as a means to coerce votes.

You know you done fucked up right May?

https://mobile.twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/925706006012874752
Mays response was terrible too, you could tell she was shook and struggling to get her words out.

Hopefully this will be something that will hurt the Tories badly, if they can prove the damn Prime Minister knew of these things not only happening but allowed the blackmail to continue after repeated complaints it wont be a good look for her.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Not surprising coming from May, I really wonder what she does except think up awful stuff.
 

zomgbbqftw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
331
London, UK
I'm very surprised that someone from Labour is pushing this. I expect the Tory dirty tricks campaign to start overnight if they keep pushing it. There's so much shit on both sides. It's going to get very messy.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I'm very surprised that someone from Labour is pushing this. I expect the Tory dirty tricks campaign to start overnight if they keep pushing it. There's so much shit on both sides. It's going to get very messy.

I think Corbyn would probably benefit from the Westminster establishment drowning in shit, I also think it would be the government that takes the brunt of any backlash.
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
I'm very surprised that someone from Labour is pushing this. I expect the Tory dirty tricks campaign to start overnight if they keep pushing it. There's so much shit on both sides. It's going to get very messy.

The Tories have to hit back. Their only defence to Labour accusing May of complicity is to show that Labour are just as bad. The problem they have is 1) the Tories have always been worse for this sort of thing for some reason and 2) Their data got leaked from their own whips office, it's not going to be easy to get hold of the same stuff from Labour.
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
I'm very surprised that someone from Labour is pushing this. I expect the Tory dirty tricks campaign to start overnight if they keep pushing it. There's so much shit on both sides. It's going to get very messy.

There's absolutely dirt on both sides, but only one side has had junior researchers compile a list.

I very nearly wrote "idiot" researchers there, because in any other context writing a list of terrible stuff that many of your side are involved with down on paper and sharing it around is very stupid. In this context though it's the exact opposite of idiocy. This period of time is an excellent time to get sexual allegations out into the open, as folks are actually likely to give them a fair hearing right now.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,188
London
Someone at Number 10 doesn't like Claire Perry very much, sending her against Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics today.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
The Tories have to hit back. Their only defence to Labour accusing May of complicity is to show that Labour are just as bad. The problem they have is 1) the Tories have always been worse for this sort of thing for some reason and 2) Their data got leaked from their own whips office, it's not going to be easy to get hold of the same stuff from Labour.
Possibly. But you have to bear in mind that there's been a seismic shift in the Labour party operation in the last 2 years - and a lot of the skeletons are going to pre-date that. Add in the fact that a huge number of PLP members voted no confidence in Corbyn and perhaps they'll be ready to squeal. I feel like until now there's been a sort of MAD element to it that's kept it all in check. But if the Tory skeletons come tumbling, like a workplace injury advert, onto the front pages of the newspapers, I just can't see it being long time Labour joins them.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,031
Relevant to this point in the discussion is Stephen Bush and Helen Lewis' article in the New Statesman: https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-silence-victims-sexual-harassment-parliament

The parties must also do more. Although outsiders often imagine each set of whips holds dossiers on the opposition, resulting in a form of "mutually assured destruction", this is not the case. There is little incentive for Labour staffers to stay silent if harassed by Conservative MPs, and vice versa – they aren't worried about getting a bad reference. As the Labour MP Jess Phillips wrote in the Times, the parties must have "independent reporting mechanisms and a clear line of action that can be taken and ultimately, they have to be willing to expel offenders from their movement". So here is the test: do politicians believe fighting sexual harassment is worth a losing a civil war?
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
Yeah, I can see the PLP hurting itself but I don't see it damaging Corbyn unless he's involved somehow.

He's the outsider and would probably be OK.
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
The only way Corbyn would end up in hot water over this if it's one of his critical shadow cabinet members who got hit by a scandal - i.e. McDonnell, Thornberry, Starmer...
 

theaface

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,149
Lisa Nandy just asked at PMQs why May (whilst home Secretary) dismissed her inquiries about whips using reports of sexual abuse as a means to coerce votes.

You know you done fucked up right May?

https://mobile.twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/925706006012874752

May: Oh god, not her again.

giphy.gif
 

Dan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,948
That was a fucking zinger by Nandy. But yeah as you said Ibrahima, people will talk about May's actions over what actually happened to Nandy..
 

Penny Royal

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
QLD, Australia
D
I'm very surprised that someone from Labour is pushing this. I expect the Tory dirty tricks campaign to start overnight if they keep pushing it. There's so much shit on both sides. It's going to get very messy.

You must be old enough to remember Major, Back to Basics & the rest of that nonsense in the 1990s. Sex scandals are rarely something an opposition makes hay over because of the likelihood of it blowing up in their faces when they get into government.

Easier to let the majority party twist in the wind.

The other thing as well of course is that leaks like this completely undermine the authority the Whips have over not only the scandal-hit, but over other potential rebels. Their role is as much to keep this information secret as it is to be able to apply the thumbscrews to the MPs.