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Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
Any company that compares exploitative loot boxes to a plastic toy in a kinder egg deserves to be hauled over the coals. My only slight concern with this is that it will be used as an excuse to push up the price of games "BuH. BUH. OUR LOOT BOX REVENUES"
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,032
UK
Captain obvious prevails again

Wonder how the 'they're not gambling' stans will react once everyone's comes to the obvious conclusion
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
With all the political nonsense, posturing, and rhetoric that's going on in the UK at the moment this news gives me some hope that we might get back on track.
 

Camisado

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,387
It's about time. Can't wait to see the new features that end up in fifa 21 when they have to strip out all the loot boxes!

...who am I kidding, they will just find a 'round the houses' loophole to keep them in as long as possible.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
Going to assume this is just coincidence, but it is funny this happens right after 2K decided to release that trailer that straight up associated Lootboxes with Gambling in NBA2k20 and PEGI's incompetence. Interesting to see what happens but I admit I have no confidence in my countries's current Government so this might not go anywhere.
That PEGI 3 rating pissed me off because Pokémon had to scrap the game corner because PEGI would've slapped the games with a 12 rating, and both RBY and GSC, and the NSMB games, have that rating.

Like at least be consistent.
 

NHale

Member
Oct 25, 2017
443
I never want government involved in videogames because it will end up badly but this is what greedy publishers get for being greedy and always wanting more and more YoY. Battlefront II is the perfect example, they went above and beyond just to try to cash in with MT, while NBA 2K is in my humble opinion the worst case of gambling in a game (and the slot machines don't bother me at all to be quite honest) because the entire design of MyCareer was changed to fit the need to spend real money to get better. It's a 100% P2W mode in a $60 game. People are even praising this year game because "If you don't want to spend money to improve your player, you only have to grind a month!". Imagine that, spend $60 for a game to get the privilege of grinding for a month to have a player that doesn't move and shoot like a 60 year old after a hip replacement.

On the other hand I fail to see what's different between FIFA Ultimate Team packs and Panini sticker collections because the entire mechanic is exactly the same. Maybe Panini should be consider gambling as well.

It's about time. Can't wait to see the new features that end up in fifa 21 when they have to strip out all the loot boxes!

...who am I kidding, they will just find a 'round the houses' loophole to keep them in as long as possible.

If this is only in the UK they will probably keep the lootboxes on the game and remove that part for UK accounts (like they did with Belgium IRC) and then for the UK implement a DLC type of market where you can spend real money to get X player. For example, instead of selling packs, they will sell Messi for €15. This removes the gambling aspect completely because you know what you are going to get... In the end I don't know if it ends up better for the parents of the kids spending money because I can easily see kids spending €60 to get Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar at launch and then anytime they release a Special Edition of that same player they will spend €60 again and again....
 
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Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,536
I'm glad to see this, and a little surprised having watched some of the meetings of this committee where they tended to seem ridiculously out of their depth. I wouldn't guarantee that it will quickly go beyond this phase, not least because of the insanity going on in British politics, but I hope so.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
That's funny. I always found the the semantic handwringing about whether loot boxes are actually gambling to be a dead-end because they were just meant to distract from the real-life harm they cause. To actually have them classified as gambling would be some very juicy twist.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,800
I watched the full committee meeting with EA and Epic representatives and this is not surprising at all. The panel were obviously completely unimpressed by their answers. The "surprise mechanics" line from the EA lawyer got all the headlines but the guys from Epic were particularly awful on everything, floundering on basic questions and the most damning moment was when nobody from either company were willing to admit they had a duty of care to their players.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,754
I watched the full committee meeting with EA and Epic representatives and this is not surprising at all. The panel were obviously completely unimpressed by their answers. The "surprise mechanics" line from the EA lawyer got all the headlines but the guys from Epic were particularly awful on everything, floundering on basic questions and the most damning moment was when nobody from either company were willing to admit they had a duty of care to their players.

"how many hours do your players play on average?

uhhh, we dont know"
 

Bazry

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,536
f this is only in the UK they will probably keep the lootboxes on the game and remove that part for UK accounts (like they did with Belgium IRC) and then for the UK implement a DLC type of market where you can spend real money to get X player. For example, instead of selling packs, they will sell Messi for €15. This removes the gambling aspect completely because you know what you are going to get... In the end I don't know if it ends up better for the parents of the kids spending money because I can easily see kids spending €60 to get Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar at launch and then anytime they release a Special Edition of that same player they will spend €60 again and again....
The UK market is huge for Fifa and EA, they wouldn't simply just remove them like in Belgium, it would break their entire system
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,574
I can only imagine how pissed gambling sites and operators must be, having to comply with stringent regulations and laws, while the videogame industry is selling this shit to kids, putting adverts on kids TV channels for their crap and go in front of committees calling it surprise mechanics.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,800
I never want government involved in videogames because it will end up badly but this is what greedy publishers get for being greedy and always wanting more and more YoY. Battlefront II is the perfect example, they went above and beyond just to try to cash in with MT, while NBA 2K is in my humble opinion the worst case of gambling in a game (and the slot machines don't bother me at all to be quite honest) because the entire design of MyCareer was changed to fit the need to spend real money to get better. It's a 100% P2W mode in a $60 game. People are even praising this year game because "If you don't want to spend money to improve your player, you only have to grind a month!". Imagine that, spend $60 for a game to get the privilege of grinding for a month to have a player that doesn't move and shoot like a 60 year old after a hip replacement.

On the other hand I fail to see what's different between FIFA Ultimate Team packs and Panini sticker collections because the entire mechanic is exactly the same. Maybe Panini should be consider gambling as well.
The committee is recommending Government action because the games industry isn't self-regulating and exercising a duty of care. I'd agree with you that it'd be best if the Government didn't have to get involved but it should hold these companies to account if they are going to act the way they do. This isn't just about loot boxes as a mechanic but about the game industry and its exploitative nature. This might also answer why Panini stickers are not being treated in the same way. From the report:

The Report cites evidence that "gaming is several years behind gambling in relation to protecting the vulnerable," a statement described by a Government Minister as "lamentable" if true. One member of the public reported their adult son had built up debts of more than ÂŁ50,000 through spending on microtransactions in an online game, RuneScape. Jagex, the company behind it confirmed players "can potentially spend up to ÂŁ1,000 a week or ÂŁ5,000 a month" in the game.

The Report notes that games companies were generally reluctant to accept a role or responsibility to intervene on player spending, with difficulty in determining what level of spending might be harmful.



MPs found it difficult to get full and clear answers, expressing disappointment at the way some representatives engaged with the inquiry, particularly in acknowledging what data is collected, how it is used and the psychological underpinning of how products are designed. Representatives from the games industry were found to be wilfully obtuse in answering questions about typical patterns of play, considered essential information in better understanding of engagement with gaming.

Some games and social media company representatives were found to have "demonstrated a lack of honesty and transparency" in giving evidence, with the Report questioning what companies had to hide.

These are not really issues that exist with Panini stickers. Yes, people can potentially spend a lot of money on them and they have some similarities with lootboxes but nobody is accruing ÂŁ1000s in debt buying stickers. During the committee meeting there were several questions about how companies tried to keep players engaged and things like targeted marketing towards players who hadn't logged in for a week or two as well as what sort of data they collected for identifying addictive behaviours, things more in common with betting companies than sticker makers. It's important to look at things in context and I think we can accept lootboxes are far more harmful than sticker books.

I'm glad to see this, and a little surprised having watched some of the meetings of this committee where they tended to seem ridiculously out of their depth. I wouldn't guarantee that it will quickly go beyond this phase, not least because of the insanity going on in British politics, but I hope so.
I think saying ridiculously out of their depth is a bit harsh. It's clear most of the MPs had never touched a video game so it made some of the questioning awkward but they (mostly) asked the right questions and certainly seemed to understand how much bollocks were being given in evidence.

"how many hours do your players play on average?

uhhh, we dont know"
The quite incredible thing is that the Epic guys admitted to being coached on their answers yet couldn't answer a single thing coherently. They genuinely seemed to think they could pretend that as a billion-dollar company they collected absolutely no data on anything.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK

Eurogamer article on it, I thought the mention (by EG) of FIFA Ultimate Team specifically was interesting.

Crucially, the Committee said in the absence of research which proves no harm is being done by exposing children to gambling through the purchasing of loot boxes, a precautionary principle should apply and they are not permitted in games played by children until the evidence proves otherwise.

This brings into question the future of loot boxes in games such as FIFA, which is played by millions of children in the UK and makes billions from the sale of a virtual currency which can be used to buy packs of Ultimate Team cards.

Back in June, representatives from EA and Epic were sent to answer questions from MPs on the difficult issues with video games, and it did not go well. At the meeting, the rep from EA stepped in to say "we don't call them loot boxes - we call them surprise mechanics" - a turn of phrase that turned out to be a lightning rod for renewed discussion around the business practices of the publisher.

"We do think the way we've implemented these kinds of mechanics is quite ethical and quite fun," Kerry Hopkins, vice president, legal and government affairs at Electronic Arts said. "They aren't gambling and we disagree that there's evidence that shows they lead to gambling."

Tonight's report suggests the Committee was not convinced.
 

Burai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,086
On the other hand I fail to see what's different between FIFA Ultimate Team packs and Panini sticker collections because the entire mechanic is exactly the same. Maybe Panini should be consider gambling as well.

The mechanic is the same, but the outcome is different. When you buy Panini stickers, you aren't doing it on the basis that you might get a player or buff that will give you a competitive edge in an online game. That's the endorphin hit.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
On the other hand I fail to see what's different between FIFA Ultimate Team packs and Panini sticker collections because the entire mechanic is exactly the same. Maybe Panini should be consider gambling as well.
With sticker albums you're making a collection book, and they'll often have a note where they can send you the last few you need to complete it at the end of the season. Those stickers have no cash value in gaining a competitive edge because there is no competitive game, it's just that some might be rarer than others and more valuable in terms of completing the collection, encouraging you to swap with others and creating a scratch economy in the playground based in swaps and completing the book. With Ultimate Team, you're paying to gain random units to use in competition online, with random chance of gaining those that will make your team better than another players. That's the whole point of the 'ultimate team' game, the packs exchange money for random advantage in an unlimited, endless online competition, rather than exchanging money for random stickers in a closed, limited physical collection.

Money for random cards is the same, but completing a limited physical sticker book and the addiction of gaining advantage in ever-evolving online competition are very different in terms of both addiction and monetisation of children.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
Absolutely right. I hate it when people argue on a technicality that it isn't really legally classed gambling when it mimics gambling in every way apart from not being able to cash out real money (but you do win good and even sometimes these DO have a market to turn them into money anyway). These games are literally priming a whole new generation to grow up with serious life debilitating gambling addictions, that's what's happening and it should be regulated fully. If adults want to gamble then it should be treated as such and rigourously monitored just like any other form of gambling is.
 

Irrotational

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
On the other hand I fail to see what's different between FIFA Ultimate Team packs and Panini sticker collections because the entire mechanic is exactly the same. Maybe Panini should be consider gambling as well.

You're right but it's all the areas surrounding the mechanic that make the "gambling" much worse.

1. There's no reason to believe the drop rates are the same for all players, or remain constant over time. It's relatively easy to profile players, and their habits, and change drop rates on the fly to encourage more spending. This is impossible (very difficult) in physical card packs.

2. The psychology of spending physical money is different to electronic money.

3. There is an ease and availability difference. Kids only see the sticker packs when they're in a shop or looking at their sticker book. They spend a lot more time playing games (on average) and see the existence of the packs all the time.

4. Kids can have direct access to their parents wallets via electronic payment methods. Parents tend not to send their kids to the shops with their bank cards to relentlessly tap and pay for card packs

5. The perceived "worth" of the reward is much higher. I'm sure, on average, kids playing Fifa a fair bit would see much more value in a cool player for their team, than a sticker to go in a book.

There are probably more that I'm missing - apologies for quoting you directly but I'm mainly using it as an example of other posts I've read over the years about loot boxes versus sticker packs.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,238
On an interesting note about this news, Jim Sterling tweeted yesterday that he'll be on BBC news today to discuss this at some point.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,536
The mechanic is the same, but the outcome is different. When you buy Panini stickers, you aren't doing it on the basis that you might get a player or buff that will give you a competitive edge in an online game. That's the endorphin hit.

In which case you're saying loot boxes are okay so long as they are cosmetic, which isn't true.
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,947
Ever since MTX and lootboxes have been introduced this industry has become more about profit than originality imo.

The focus at these companies is on long term profit from MTX, that is incredibly apparent and it's stopping real innovation in the industry imo.

You only have to take a lot at sports games (Fifa, Madden and NBA 2K) who are the worst offenders here and see how little innovation these titles have shown in the last 4-5 iterations since their focus has been on ultimate team and cosmetics.

They found an untapped market after watching the boom with free to play mobile gaming, used techniques which casinos implement to make profit and then exploit vunerable people with these tactics to make profit, it needs regulation 100%.

I miss the days where none of this was a thing personally, this industry has moved away from passion projects for the most part and moved towards "How can we make this profitable" being the main question asked before a game is even made and that makes me sad, greed has won it seems.

There are very few AAA games that feel like real passion projects anymore, obviously they do exist but they are the exception rather than the rule imo.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,536
I think saying ridiculously out of their depth is a bit harsh. It's clear most of the MPs had never touched a video game so it made some of the questioning awkward but they (mostly) asked the right questions and certainly seemed to understand how much bollocks were being given in evidence.

I'm not so sure, and though they're driving for the right overall policy, I'm concerned about how weak their actual arguments are. That isn't to say they won't be successful because I think most people who examine this issue for a short while will come to their conclusion, but they've done a poor job at actually outlining why loot boxes are additionally problematic.

8.We recommend that loot boxes that contain the element of chance should not be sold to children playing games, and instead in-game credits should be earned through rewards won through playing the games. In the absence of research which proves that no harm is being done by exposing children to gambling through the purchasing of loot boxes, then we believe the precautionary principle should apply and they are not permitted in games played by children until the evidence proves otherwise. (Paragraph 79)

Can't help but feel other similar products (many of which have a long history) are pretty good evidence that these digital versions are unlikely to cause long term harm. Pokemon cards, kinder eggs, sports stickers, happy meals and so on. The DCMS needs to identify why lootboxes are different in my opinion, if they want to have a solid case.

11.We consider loot boxes that can be bought with real-world money and do not reveal their contents in advance to be games of chance played for money's worth. The Government should bring forward regulations under section 6 of the Gambling Act 2005 in the next parliamentary session to specify that loot boxes are a game of chance. If it determines not to regulate loot boxes under the Act at this time, the Government should produce a paper clearly stating the reasons why it does not consider loot boxes paid for with real-world currency to be a game of chance played for money's worth. (Paragraph 98)

Again, I feel like the government/gambling commission has already made it pretty clear that loot boxes aren't a game of chance played for money's worth because the items gained are not worth money (in general). This has always been the loop hole.

What does this report actually bring to the table that is in anyway new other than a dubious argument about presuming that they are dangerous until there is proof they aren't? I mean hell, it's actually mindblowing that they've produced this entire report without mentioning the analogues that the games industry has and will continue to use to argue why they shouldn't be regulated/banned. They're making it easy for the industry.
 
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Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
Good. Start with outlawing lootboxes and then move onto virtual currencies. There should be no levels of obfuscation between what you are buying and what you are actually spending.
 

GusFacsimile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
128
Curious about UK IE and its funding. Their CEO Dr Jo Twist was just on BBC news and pretty much dismissed the report, putting the blame on parents, said "we provide all the tools for parents to control how thier children spend' and "their needs to be research about the positive and negatives." *eye roll*
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Imagine this massive backlash against MTX is all due to EA fucking up Star Wars Battlefront 2.
I think it largely is, EA ruined it for everyone and I'm sure other corporations are enraged by EAs gross profiteering. Not because it's exploitative, but because it impedes thier own offering. So I take great joy in knowing EA are feeling nervous about being blocked from lootboxes and also for feeling the heat from their cohorts.

If UK do ban it, I see everyone in Europe doing the same.
 

Burai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,086
In which case you're saying loot boxes are okay so long as they are cosmetic, which isn't true.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm also not defending blind bag toys, stickers or card games because they too can be predatory. I'm just explaining why FUT card packs and Panini sticker packs aren't the same.
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
78.We put some of these concerns to Kerry Hopkins from Electronic Arts, who responded that the way they have implemented this mechanic in FIFA "is quite ethical and quite fun". Yet this is noticeably out of step with the attitude of many of the gamers who contacted us following our evidence session, including those who vehemently rejected her characterisation of packs not as loot boxes but as "surprise mechanics". One gamer called the company's testimony to us "a bare face lie", and another told us that the company has: heavily marketed and referred to their systems as 'loot boxes' for several years and […] the mechanics of the system are exactly the same no matter what they choose to call it.

*sheds tear* i've never felt prouder of the FIFA community for this one

hopefully this comes into action by FIFA 21.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,800
I'm not so sure, and though they're driving for the right overall policy, I'm concerned about how weak their actual arguments are. That isn't to say they won't be successful because I think most people who examine this issue for a short while will come to their conclusion, but they've done a poor job at actually outlining why loot boxes are additionally problematic.



Can't help but feel other similar products (many of which have a long history) are pretty good evidence that these digital versions are unlikely to cause long term harm. Pokemon cards, kinder eggs, sports stickers, happy meals and so on. The DCMS needs to identify why lootboxes are different in my opinion, if they want to have a solid case.



Again, I feel like the government/gambling commission has already made it pretty clear that loot boxes aren't a game of chance played for money's worth because the items gained are not worth money (in general). This has always been the loop hole.

What does this report actually bring to the table that is in anyway new other than a dubious argument about presuming that they are dangerous until there is proof they aren't? I mean hell, it's actually mindblowing that they've produced this entire report without mentioning the analogues that the games industry has and will continue to use to argue why they shouldn't be regulated/banned. They're making it easy for the industry.
Isn't the potential long-term affects of loot boxes addressed in this report though.

Potential harms of loot boxes
80.We have heard concerns about the "structural and psychological similarities" between loot boxes and gambling.151 Dr Aaron Drummond and Dr James Sauer told us in written evidence that the random delivery of loot box rewards is akin to conventional gambling products and:

designed to exploit potent psychological mechanisms associated with the development and maintenance of gambling-like behaviours.152

81.Dr Drummond and Dr Sauer argue that "it is plausible that engaging with these loot box systems could have short-term consequences (e.g., over-spending on accessing loot box systems) and longer-term consequences (e.g., facilitating migration to more conventional forms of gambling)".153 However, academics broadly acknowledge that there is not yet enough evidence to reliably conclude that loot boxes cause problem gambling.154 This was echoed by the then Minister's observation to us that:

If evidence does emerge that loot boxes can be a gateway to problem gambling, then we need to take that seriously and we need to take some action. But the evidence is not there yet. There are not many studies.155

Yet, even if there is not enough evidence at this stage to establish a causal link between loot boxes and problem gambling, other research suggests that they may still be causing harm.

82.A study by Dr David Zendle and Dr Paul Cairns identified a link between the amount that gamers spend on loot boxes and their score on the Problem Gambling Severity Index (PGSI). Moreover, the large-scale study of more than 7,000 gamers suggested "that the gambling-like features of loot boxes are specifically responsible for the observed relationship between problem gambling and spending on loot boxes" as other forms of microtransaction did not display such a strong link.156 A further study found the same link among adolescents—in fact, the link between loot box spending and problem gambling among adolescents was more than twice as strong as the relationship observed in adults.157

83.Dr Zendle told us in oral evidence that although his studies have not identified a causal link between loot boxes and problem gambling:

Something very different might be happening here where people who are already problem gamblers, people who already have a disordered and excessive relationship with gambling-related activities that may to some extent be beyond their control, are now going into their favourite games and saying, "Oh look, it is something that looks an awful lot like this thing I have a disordered and excessive relationship with". That is why they are spending more money on loot boxes. It is not that it is a gateway; it is that it is a way that video games companies may, accidentally or incidentally, be profiting from problem gambling among their consumers.158

84.Dr Zendle and Dr Cairns, among others, therefore make the case for enhanced regulation of loot boxes, such as ensuring games containing loot boxes carry parental advisories or descriptors outlining that they feature gambling content, and propose that "serious consideration is given to restricting games with loot boxes to players of legal gambling age".159 Brad Enright told us that these "seemed like very sensible recommendations" which "the video games industry should probably take stock of."160

85.Games regulated under the PEGI system can feature content labels alerting users to the fact they contain in-game purchases. However, there is no specific content descriptor for loot boxes, despite Dr Zendle telling us that "they are formally very different to other microtransactions".161 Moreover, PEGI has a content label alerting users to the fact a game contains actual, or simulated, gambling; however, again, this does not apply to games with loot boxes. The reason for this has been stated by a PEGI representative who said:

The main reason for this is that we cannot define what constitutes gambling. That is the responsibility of a national gambling commission. […] If a gambling commission would state that loot boxes are a form of gambling, then we would have to adjust our criteria to that.162

Yet Dr Mark Griffiths argues that PEGI's position appears to be:

somewhat hard line given that PEGI's descriptor of gambling content is used whenever any videogame "teaches or encourages" gambling. Such a descriptor would arguably cover gambling-like games or activities and the buying of loot boxes is 'gambling-like' at the very least.163



On top of that the committee is suggesting that more research needs to be done in this area:
71.However, others have argued that there is not yet enough evidence on the psychosocial effects of gambling-like mechanics, particularly on children. We have been told by academics that:

This is largely because academic scientists do not have access to the proprietary industry data needed to provide an answer to this question. Scientific research needs to study which gaming mechanisms are the most problematic and needing of both monitoring and regulation.137

Dr Mark Griffiths from Nottingham Trent University's International Gaming Research Unit recommended in written evidence that:

A scientific working group should be set up under the DCMS to collate the latest evidence relating to the effects of gambling-like gaming. This could then inform an evidence-based paper on gambling-like gaming in order to: (i) provide clarity regarding the evidence and the recommendations, (ii) be shared as a common guideline and practice by relevant UK organizations (i.e. UK Gambling Commission, UK Council for Child Internet Safety, Parent Zone, Childnet) that deal with support and advice provision towards parents and the community.138

72.We believe that any gambling-related harms associated with gaming should be recognised under the online harms framework. To inform this work, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport should immediately establish a scientific working group to collate the latest evidence relating to the effects of gambling-like mechanics in games. The group should produce an evidence-based review of the effects of gambling-like game mechanics, including loot boxes and other emerging trends, to provide clarity and advice. This should be done within a timescale that enables it to inform the Government's forthcoming online harms legislation.

The full report mentions several times that it believes that the games industry isn't acting with care and that is probably the biggest reason for calling on the Government to intervene. It also goes into 'gaming addiction' as a WHO recognised condition and this very clearly sets it apart from things like card/sticker packs and other comparisons. Mentioning them just feels like whataboutism, if the argument is that these are also dangerous then there should be an inquiry into them too. It doesn't detract from the loot box issue. The Gambling Commission has, as far as I know, never objected to legislating against lootboxes either, only claimed that they currently don't fall under the definition of gambling used in UK law. The very suggestion from the committee is that this law should change.
 

TUFCfan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
563
On the other hand I fail to see what's different between FIFA Ultimate Team packs and Panini sticker collections because the entire mechanic is exactly the same. Maybe Panini should be consider gambling as well.

IIRC, Panini stickers are printed evenly. At least they have been in the past. So there are as many Ronaldo's and Messi's in circulation as there are of the Honduran third choice Goalkeeper. In UT that's certainly not the case. Similar ones that aren't even also have relatively fixed odds unlike lootboxes where the odds can be changed at any time.

One other difference I suppose is that you can swap things like Panini stickers for free. You don't need to place them on a marketplace and sell them for in-game currency that's earned by playing for hours or by selling players from packs bought with real money.

edit: Also, just thinking about it, things like UT introduce time limited rare cards like TOTWs that introduce the fomo anxiety.
 

Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
3,736
EA would be sweating if they'd have to take the PEGI 3+ off Fifa boxes. Can't have kids gambling.
 

Iacomus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
803
PEGI two years ago:

"Loot crates are currently not considered gambling: you always get something when you purchase them, even if it's not what you hoped for," says Dirk Bosmans, from European video game rating organisation PEGI. "For that reason, a loot crate system does not trigger the gambling content descriptor."

PEGI's gambling content descriptor warns players a game "teaches or encourages" gambling. A game gets this descriptor if it contains content that simulates what is considered gambling, or they contain actual gambling with cash payouts. Bosmans doesn't believe the latter exists on the current consoles. As for the former...

"It's not up to PEGI to decide whether something is considered gambling or not - this is defined by national gambling laws," Bosmans says.

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling

Seems that PEGI couldn't do anything until the commission made a decision. They have made their decision.

PEGI if you have any integrity it's time to act.