UK PoliticsERA |OT1| - Strong and Stable Government? No. Coalition Of Chaos! PART 2

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
London
Oh yeah, I realise everything is still terrible. But I’ll take whatever little bit of good news I can get at the moment :)
I would think if the Brexiter vote couldn't get out and cross the winning line here where they were the favourite, that they are going to struggle in future.

This was just one favourable seat they could focus everything on straight after their EU success and they failed.
 

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,816
Scotland
I would think if the Brexiter vote couldn't get out and cross the winning line here where they were the favourite, that they are going to struggle in future.

This was just one favourable seat they could focus everything on straight after their EU success and they failed.
Not to mention the Brexit Party, like UKIP, are always going to do better at by-elections.
 

dean_rcg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
921
It's nice to keep the nutters out, yes.

The overall picture doesn't look so rosy though. I've crunched the numbers a bit:

Hard Brexit votes (Brexits, Con, UKIP) = 51%. Admittedly a bit down on the referendum result of 61% ish, but still worrisome. Con down by 25 point, Brexit up by 29, so it is Brexit snaffling Con voters - any electoral alliance between them would have swept the board. Lab down 17 points, LibDem up by 9, Green by 1. Suggests a small core of ex-Lab hard brexiteers. Still not clear what the Lab policy is, so hard to read any more into it.
Could you argue that some of the loyal Tory voters are remainers?
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
2,317
It's nice to keep the nutters out, yes.

The overall picture doesn't look so rosy though. I've crunched the numbers a bit:

Hard Brexit votes (Brexits, Con, UKIP) = 51%. Admittedly a bit down on the referendum result of 61% ish, but still worrisome. Con down by 25 point, Brexit up by 29, so it is Brexit snaffling Con voters - any electoral alliance between them would have swept the board. Lab down 17 points, LibDem up by 9, Green by 1. Suggests a small core of ex-Lab hard brexiteers. Still not clear what the Lab policy is, so hard to read any more into it.
Which numbers have you crunched? The Peterborough ones?
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,299
Wow, unexpected result honestly. Love the fact even in a best case scenario Farage can't get one of his knobbers into Parliament.
 
Oct 27, 2017
215
For those unaware about the antisemitism allegations, Lisa Forbes wiki page:


During the 2019 by-election campaign, Forbes was found to have previously 'liked' a Facebook post expressing sympathy with the victims of the Christchurch mosque shootings that also included an antisemitic phrase.[3] She apologised "wholeheartedly" both after the allegations were published and after her successful by-election win.[4][5] As part of the same allegation it was also cited that in 2014 she commented on another Facebook post claiming Islamic extremists were created by the CIA and Mossad, saying "I have enjoyed reading this thread so much".[3] Lisa Forbes claimed that "this was linked to the comments underneath the post discussing prejudice and hostility towards Muslims and not about Mossad or ISIS".[6] Jewish representative groups the Board of Deputies of British Jews, Jewish Leadership Council and the Community Security Trust released a statement calling Labour to "disown Lisa Forbes as a candidate", due to her actions along with her previous rejection of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism and also taking into account other local incidents and the bigger picture of antisemitism in the Labour Party.[7] The Jewish Labour Movement said their members would not campaign for Lisa Forbes, saying "To do so would be inconsistent with the views of our members, who have understandably and clearly called for a culture of zero tolerance towards antisemitism in the Labour Party".[8]

The Jewish Voice for Labour group condemned the accusations against Forbes, calling the trawling of social media accounts pernicious, a deeply reprehensible way to conduct political debate and in this case failing to produce any credible evidence of antisemitism. [9]

I don't know how any serious member of the labour party can look at those two instances and say 'She's an antisemite', it does show the level of anti-zionist rhetoric that gets banded around at the activist level of the party, which is probably where a lot of the anger at MP level comes from, but that Jess Phillips tweet is a really unnecessary smear.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,663
For those unaware about the antisemitism allegations, Lisa Forbes wiki page:





I don't know how any serious member of the labour party can look at those two instances and say 'She's an antisemite', it does show the level of anti-zionist rhetoric that gets banded around at the activist level of the party, which is probably where a lot of the anger at MP level comes from, but that Jess Phillips tweet is a really unnecessary smear.

So the usual largely spurious weaponising of antisemitism as a brush to tar political opponents with. It bears repeating that these kinds of claims make it easier for actual antisemites to legitimise themselves by claiming they are unfairly targeted, and shows how little many of the people making these accusations actually care about racism.
 

Garfield

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,011
Clive Lewis on radio 4 did admit Labour threw a lot of resources at the by election. And would not be able to do that in a GE. He said it was important Labour won so was justified
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,137
It's nice to keep the nutters out, yes.

The overall picture doesn't look so rosy though. I've crunched the numbers a bit:

Hard Brexit votes (Brexits, Con, UKIP) = 51%. Admittedly a bit down on the referendum result of 61% ish, but still worrisome. Con down by 25 point, Brexit up by 29, so it is Brexit snaffling Con voters - any electoral alliance between them would have swept the board. Lab down 17 points, LibDem up by 9, Green by 1. Suggests a small core of ex-Lab hard brexiteers. Still not clear what the Lab policy is, so hard to read any more into it.
If hard brexit votes are down that much on the referendum result across the board, then I don't see this being a bad result.
 

solidussnaku

Member
Nov 29, 2017
570
Could you argue that some of the loyal Tory voters are remainers?
Yes, on the guardian opinion section, John curtice wrote a post about cons in places like Cheshire, how they have voted toires thier entire lives, and voted to remain. However due to how right wing the cons are shifting because of brexit, those voters are in danger of being lost to lib Dems.

The current policies of full bore no deal push by the toires will be the undoing of them. It's why I said in the brexit thread I expect an enormous seat win for the dems in a GE. The centre right in the tory party died after 2016.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,247
So the usual largely spurious weaponising of antisemitism as a brush to tar political opponents with. It bears repeating that these kinds of claims make it easier for actual antisemites to legitimise themselves by claiming they are unfairly targeted, and shows how little many of the people making these accusations actually care about racism.
She liked a post saying that "Theresa May has a Zionist slave masters agenda.".
She was in a group that had numerous messages about Zionist rats and other anti-Jewish messages.
She said she enjoyed reading a thread that started on a post about how Mossad and the CIA created Islamic Extremism.

That isn't "weaponising Israel". It just plain out and out antisemitism.

People need to stop defending this shit on the left. Just because she isn't in a gestapo uniform doesn't mean her actions aren't wrong and anti-semitic, and she absolutely crossed a line with this behaviour and needs to show absolute apology, humility and a willingness to learn.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,663
She liked a post saying that "Theresa May has a Zionist slave masters agenda.".
She was in a group that had numerous messages about Zionist rats and other anti-Jewish messages.
She said she enjoyed reading a thread that started on a post about how Mossad and the CIA created Islamic Extremism.

That isn't "weaponising Israel". It just plain out and out antisemitism.

People need to stop defending this shit on the left. Just because she isn't in a gestapo uniform doesn't mean her actions aren't wrong and anti-semitic, and she absolutely crossed a line with this behaviour and needs to show absolute apology, humility and a willingness to learn.
Do those posts reference Judaism or Zionism? Because they aren't the same thing, although often conflated by people on both sides of that argument. And if that's honestly the most dammnig thing they can find on her after trawling her social media, then yes, it appears to me that this is been blown out of proportion. I don't know the context of the of the other thread she 'enjoyed reading'. but it is not out of this world to acknowledge the role the US and Israel have had in creating modern islamic extremism, although it kind of depends on the exact content of that thread with which I am not familiar. You also say she needs to apologise - unless I am mistaken she has?

Edit - I want to be very clear that is not my intention to handwave antisemitism where it does, in fact, exist.
 
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jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,063
Why don't Labour just chuck out people who do this stuff and make it clear that's the rule, wouldn't that solve it?

Maybe she deserves a second chance, maybe she doesn't but they need to get a grip much like the Tories with their islamophobia, just have a clear rule, you're out if you say horrible stuff.

I'm guessing that may not stand up in the law or something?
 

RellikSK

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,298
She liked a post saying that "Theresa May has a Zionist slave masters agenda.".
She was in a group that had numerous messages about Zionist rats and other anti-Jewish messages.
She said she enjoyed reading a thread that started on a post about how Mossad and the CIA created Islamic Extremism.

That isn't "weaponising Israel". It just plain out and out antisemitism.

People need to stop defending this shit on the left. Just because she isn't in a gestapo uniform doesn't mean her actions aren't wrong and anti-semitic, and she absolutely crossed a line with this behaviour and needs to show absolute apology, humility and a willingness to learn.
This.

Maybe she deserves a second chance, maybe she doesn't but they need to get a grip much like the Tories with their islamophobia, just have a clear rule, you're out if you say horrible stuff.
Tories haven’t gotten a hold of Islamaphobia, they are just better at media game due to them essentially owning half of the papers.


They suspended some councillors, praised by many in the media for taking quick and swift action, they then quietly reinstated them later.
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
349
Do those posts reference Judaism or Zionism? Because they aren't the same thing, although often conflated by people on both sides of that argument. And if that's honestly the most dammnig thing they can find on her after trawling her social media, then yes, it appears to me that this is been blown out of proportion. I don't know the context of the of the other thread she 'enjoyed reading'. but it is not out of this world to acknowledge the role the US and Israel have had in creating modern islamic extremism, although it kind of depends on the exact content of that thread with which I am not familiar. You also say she needs to apologise - unless I am mistaken she has?

Edit - I want to be very clear that is not my intention to handwave antisemitism where it does, in fact, exist.
I'd say one of the major problems with antisemitism within the left is the willingness to hand wave away obvious antisemitism as anti-Zionism, even in those cases where it clearly overlaps with antisemitic conspiracy theories and dogwhistles.
 
Oct 27, 2017
215
She liked a post saying that "Theresa May has a Zionist slave masters agenda.".
She was in a group that had numerous messages about Zionist rats and other anti-Jewish messages.
She said she enjoyed reading a thread that started on a post about how Mossad and the CIA created Islamic Extremism.

That isn't "weaponising Israel". It just plain out and out antisemitism.

People need to stop defending this shit on the left. Just because she isn't in a gestapo uniform doesn't mean her actions aren't wrong and anti-semitic, and she absolutely crossed a line with this behaviour and needs to show absolute apology, humility and a willingness to learn.
This is why this line of attack works so well, it's impossible to even talk about without sounding like you're waving your hand over anti-semitism, I'm definitely not doing that, I think there's a big problem at the activist level of the labour party but all you've done here is parrot what the reporting said, the context (made clear on wikipedia) paints a very different picture of her actions. This is a councillor in a largely muslim parish interacting with ONE (ONE!) of her constituents. It's not a pattern of behaviour, it's not a field of red flags, it's two interactions with 1 man.

Both facebook posts she interacted with were posted by the same man, his whole Facebook page is public (smart move..)

https://www.facebook.com/ishy.qureshi (this man definitely appears to be an antisemite based on his posts)

But he also posted many other things which have nothing to do with Israel, one of which was about why he was supporting Lisa:

Lisa Forbes for Peterborough MP. The most credible and hard working voluntarily worker ive seen connected to the council and Trade Union. The First Ever charity walk in Peterborough for Gaza i had organised, was my first encounter with Lisa. Went out her way to have the Ambulance service, council permission and other formalities covered for this charity event. She is always available for others needs. A great honest character who will go out her way to help. No brainer, you rightfully deserve the role.



Lisa apologised for interacting with this man, explained that she doesn't agree with his opinions she just interacted with him. I totally agree that can be part of the problem because it legitimises the views, but it seems to me that Jess Phillips (who herself must face very similar issues in her constituency) could have at least spoken to her about how she could choose who she interacts with better before making this tweet, if she doesn't intend to talk to the people she thinks are causing the issues then how does she intend to solve them?

The right of the party goes on and on about how the leadership isn't addressing the problem, but as far as I can see, they aren't addressing it either, they're just yelling about it, and you do have to question whether that's because they're more interested in getting rid of the leadership than solving the problem.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,663
This is why this line of attack works so well, it's impossible to even talk about without sounding like you're waving your hand over anti-semitism, I'm definitely not doing that, I think there's a big problem at the activist level of the labour party but all you've done here is parrot what the reporting said, the context (made clear on wikipedia) paints a very different picture of her actions. This is a councillor in a largely muslim parish interacting with ONE (ONE!) of her constituents. It's not a pattern of behaviour, it's not a field of red flags, it's two interactions with 1 man.

Both facebook posts she interacted with were posted by the same man, his whole Facebook page is public (smart move..)

https://www.facebook.com/ishy.qureshi (this man definitely appears to be an antisemite based on his posts)

But he also posted many other things which have nothing to do with Israel, one of which was about why he was supporting Lisa:

Lisa Forbes for Peterborough MP. The most credible and hard working voluntarily worker ive seen connected to the council and Trade Union. The First Ever charity walk in Peterborough for Gaza i had organised, was my first encounter with Lisa. Went out her way to have the Ambulance service, council permission and other formalities covered for this charity event. She is always available for others needs. A great honest character who will go out her way to help. No brainer, you rightfully deserve the role.



Lisa apologised for interacting with this man, explained that she doesn't agree with his opinions she just interacted with him. I totally agree that can be part of the problem because it legitimises the views, but it seems to me that Jess Phillips (who herself must face very similar issues in her constituency) could have at least spoken to her about how she could choose who she interacts with better before making this tweet, if she doesn't intend to talk to the people she thinks are causing the issues then how does she intend to solve them?

The right of the party goes on and on about how the leadership isn't addressing the problem, but as far as I can see, they aren't addressing it either, they're just yelling about it, and you do have to question whether that's because they're more interested in getting rid of the leadership than solving the problem.

Thanks, this puts it much better than I did or could.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
79
i agree that taking facebook likes out of context is a poor way of assessing someone’s politics and it is a bit of a hit job that diminishes the debate. that said i think the forbes stuff illustrates how so many on the left are partially blind to anti-semitic content in a contexts like facebook where they would be very anxious about what they were being seen to endorse if the content was directed at LGBT or BME groups. i’m hopeful that the all consuming anti-semitism debate in labour does make people more aware of how they conduct themselves in this regard - i don’t see myself as anti-semitic (like everyone, i guess, even your wilsman’s) but i feel like i put a lot more thought and priority into the issue than i did in 2015 and it’s probably improved my politics.

also it’s absolutely brilliant the result in peterborough, i hope it empowers us to hold the line on the brexit position instead of pandering after the terrible euroes results.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,063
Do these polls reflect winning seats, will the Brexit party actually have loads of MPs in parliament?

Are people that deluded with Brexit that they would let those con artists in with an in all likelihood a unicorn manifesto only there to pull the wool over their eyes until the deed is done, madness.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
938
London
i agree that taking facebook likes out of context is a poor way of assessing someone’s politics and it is a bit of a hit job that diminishes the debate. that said i think the forbes stuff illustrates how so many on the left are partially blind to anti-semitic content in a contexts like facebook where they would be very anxious about what they were being seen to endorse if the content was directed at LGBT or BME groups. i’m hopeful that the all consuming anti-semitism debate in labour does make people more aware of how they conduct themselves in this regard - i don’t see myself as anti-semitic (like everyone, i guess, even your wilsman’s) but i feel like i put a lot more thought and priority into the issue than i did in 2015 and it’s probably improved my politics.

also it’s absolutely brilliant the result in peterborough, i hope it empowers us to hold the line on the brexit position instead of pandering after the terrible euroes results.
Hold the line on a medium brexit policy that hardly anyone likes and has zero chance of uniting the country except in how shit most people think it is? That has zero chance as being accepted as Brexit by leavers because they already think May's hard deal isn't proper Brexit? That has zero chance of being accepted as a good compromise by remainers because it's not soft enough and still throws migrants and our economy under the bus?

Literally the only people who like it are Labour loyalists who would go along with any Brexit policy because it's of secondary importance to them.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
79
Hold the line on a medium brexit policy that hardly anyone likes and has zero chance of uniting the country except in how shit most people think it is? That has zero chance as being accepted as Brexit by leavers because they already think May's hard deal isn't proper Brexit? That has zero chance of being accepted as a good compromise by remainers because it's not soft enough and still throws migrants and our economy under the bus?

Literally the only people who like it are Labour loyalists who would go along with any Brexit policy because it's of secondary importance to them.
i like it because it’s a policy that can win over the cocktail of both leave and remain voters that we need to win a fptp general election. as we saw in peterborough yesterday. other policies feel good for activists but just pile up more votes in islington while we get picked off in marginals.

it gives room for leave voters to feel comfortable voting for our economic policies without being told to fuck off and remain voters can decide whether they want pm boris on a no deal platform or the only way to actually get a remainy outcome - more remain mp’s and a labour lead government with corbyn as pm. it’s magical thinking to feel we can win without both.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
938
London
i like it because it’s a policy that can win over the cocktail of both leave and remain voters that we need to win a fptp general election. as we saw in peterborough yesterday. other policies feel good for activists but just pile up more votes in islington while we get picked off in marginals.

it gives room for leave voters to feel comfortable voting for our economic policies without being told to fuck off and remain voters can decide whether they want pm boris on a no deal platform or the only way to actually get a remainy outcome - more remain mp’s and a labour lead government with corbyn as pm. it’s magical thinking to feel we can win without both.
I mean Labour vote share was down 17% and they scraped a win due to the Tories and BXP splitting the RW vote. That the main opposition barely holding on with a much reduced vote share is seen as a glorious victory with the worst government in living memory is solely down to very low expectations.

Plus I like how always the assumption is that remainers just have to suck it up and vote for Corbyn's garbage policy because evil Tories but leavers have to be appeased at all costs. This despite Labour bleeding voters to remain parties at a much larger rate than they are to leave ones.
 

Beefy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,664
She liked a post saying that "Theresa May has a Zionist slave masters agenda.".
She was in a group that had numerous messages about Zionist rats and other anti-Jewish messages.
She said she enjoyed reading a thread that started on a post about how Mossad and the CIA created Islamic Extremism.

That isn't "weaponising Israel". It just plain out and out antisemitism.

People need to stop defending this shit on the left. Just because she isn't in a gestapo uniform doesn't mean her actions aren't wrong and anti-semitic, and she absolutely crossed a line with this behaviour and needs to show absolute apology, humility and a willingness to learn.
Not defending the antisemtic shit, but I also don't trust Jess Phillips. I think she uses the trash in her party to make her seem the "nice one".
 

brain_stew

Member
Oct 30, 2017
176
i like it because it’s a policy that can win over the cocktail of both leave and remain voters that we need to win a fptp general election. as we saw in peterborough yesterday. other policies feel good for activists but just pile up more votes in islington while we get picked off in marginals.

it gives room for leave voters to feel comfortable voting for our economic policies without being told to fuck off and remain voters can decide whether they want pm boris on a no deal platform or the only way to actually get a remainy outcome - more remain mp’s and a labour lead government with corbyn as pm. it’s magical thinking to feel we can win without both.
Let's be absolutely clear about what Labour's Brexit position is. It is hard Brexit. It is out of the common market and an end to freedom of movement. It is an endorsement to a deliberate economic self harm and the thousands of job losses that come with it. It is a giant middle finger to all of the European immigrants we have built our national health service upon. In all practical purposes it is a Brexit very, very similar to May's deal.

You are absolutely entitled to support that. You may believe sacrificing the livelihood of so many is a valid sacrifice for a Labour government but please don't frame it as anything but a hard Brexit. We all need to remember that at the start of this process a "soft" Brexit meant a Norway deal, and Labour's position is a million miles away from that.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
938
London
Let's be absolutely clear about what Labour's Brexit position is. It is hard Brexit. It is out of the common market and an end to freedom of movement. It is an endorsement to a deliberate economic self harm and the thousands of job losses that come with it. It is a giant middle finger to all of the European immigrants we have built our national health service upon. In all practical purposes it is a Brexit very, very similar to May's deal.

You are absolutely entitled to support that. You may believe sacrificing the livelihood of so many is a valid sacrifice for a Labour government but please don't frame it as anything but a hard Brexit. We all need to remember that at the start of this process a "soft" Brexit meant a Norway deal, and Labour's position is a million miles away from that.
Spot on.

In other depressing Labour news here's one of their Birmingham MPs talking in support of the Anderton Park homophobes.

I mean dislike Jess Phillips all you want but at least she told these guys to fuck off.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
London
Spot on.

In other depressing Labour news here's one of their Birmingham MPs talking in support of the Anderton Park homophobes.

I mean dislike Jess Phillips all you want but at least she told these guys to fuck off.
Is the clip being selective at all, he say's the school should just be doing the same thing as every other school, or has every other school backed down or something?

oops, never mind he's definitely blue labour. deary me.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,406
Chesire, UK
In other depressing Labour news here's one of their Birmingham MPs talking in support of the Anderton Park homophobes.

I mean dislike Jess Phillips all you want but at least she told these guys to fuck off.
Seems pretty clear to me.

Absolutely disgusting.

A Labour MP, a Labour MP, backing these homophobes who are making the lives of teachers and the children attending these schools miserable is beyond the pale.

Deselection is too good for him. Kick him, and anyone who shares his regressive views, out of the party.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,063
An official statement from the Brexit Party Head of Press

Boris has said he did cocaine before although said he sneezed and it may have been icing sugar.

Hunt did cannabis.

I doubt Leadsom has done anything with a stick up her arse her whole life.

Raab is a nervous flop sweat puppet but I suppose he could just be itching for another hit of something.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
683
A rollercoaster of Corbyn reminding you of his best and worst qualities as Labour leader.

A much as I like his policies though (see the first article), his attitude towards Brexit is becomingly increasingly untenable. I feel like if they actually tried to oust Watson with another leadership election that they will be in for a bit of a shock.

It's weird, because the membership are mostly pro EU and pro Corbyn's policies, but most of the senior members of the PLP are either in one camp or the other.