UK PoliticsERA |OT1| - Strong and Stable Government? No. Coalition Of Chaos! PART 2

theaface

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,010
Disgusting that Chris Davies still got 39% of the vote even after a conviction for submitting false expenses. People really don’t give a shit, do they?

In this country we have a twisted and perverse sense of justice that routinely lets politicians off the hook for lying, cheating and stealing on the one hand, and has gnashing our teeth if a poor person claims more benefits than they’re entitled to on the other.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,686
From a purely selfish point of view, this is good news. But being pragmatic it's yet another reason why FPTP sucks. Plenty of constituencies go to the Tories with the left vote being split in this manner, too
 

Zaph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,550
Disgusting that Chris Davies still got 39% of the vote even after a conviction for submitting false expenses. People really don’t give a shit, do they?

In this country we have a twisted and perverse sense of justice that routinely lets politicians off the hook for lying, cheating and stealing on the one hand, and has gnashing our teeth if a poor person claims more benefits than they’re entitled to on the other.
Rules don't apply to tories. They can be as crooked, malicious and racist as they like, but people will still consider them a fundamental backbone of the country.
 

Garfield

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,086
Why don’t one of these Tory MP,s who hate Boris and is a staunch remainer join the Lib Dem’s
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
828
England
Can't believe Labour did so badly (12.5% down) that they almost lost their deposit and only beat the Monster Raving Loony Party and UKIP - a joke and a dead party whose base has transferred to another that doubled Labour's share. This may not have been a Labour seat by any stretch of the imagination, but this paints a picture. How much more of this sort of stuff needs to happen before the party wakes up and realizes something needs to happen to stop a horrific electoral slide in the next GE?
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Can't believe Labour did so badly (12.5% down) that they almost lost their deposit and only beat the Monster Raving Loony Party and UKIP - a joke and a dead party whose base has transferred to another that doubled Labour's share. This may not have been a Labour seat by any stretch of the imagination, but this paints a picture. How much more of this sort of stuff needs to happen before the party wakes up and realizes something needs to happen to stop a horrific electoral slide in the next GE?
I want more tactical voting until we get past this mess, i hope libdem's and greens do something similar if a brexiter tory can be got rid of.
It's a safe conservative seat, for now it isn't.
 

Hazzuh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,076
Can't believe Labour did so badly (12.5% down) that they almost lost their deposit and only beat the Monster Raving Loony Party and UKIP - a joke and a dead party whose base has transferred to another that doubled Labour's share. This may not have been a Labour seat by any stretch of the imagination, but this paints a picture. How much more of this sort of stuff needs to happen before the party wakes up and realizes something needs to happen to stop a horrific electoral slide in the next GE?
Didn't realise until today how dreadful Labour's by-election record is:

 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,593
Can't believe Labour did so badly (12.5% down) that they almost lost their deposit and only beat the Monster Raving Loony Party and UKIP - a joke and a dead party whose base has transferred to another that doubled Labour's share. This may not have been a Labour seat by any stretch of the imagination, but this paints a picture. How much more of this sort of stuff needs to happen before the party wakes up and realizes something needs to happen to stop a horrific electoral slide in the next GE?
The upcoming Labour conference is going to be really interesting. If Corbyn or the people around him refuse to yield to the will of the membership on Brexit then his time as leader will probably come to an end. There is no plausible route to government for the party as things stand. Corbyn made a big noise about democratising the party and having policies that reflect the view of members, he has one final chance to deliver on that otherwise even his most ardent supporters are going to lose hope.

I believe it’s possible for Labour to win power as a Remain party. I don’t think it’s possible for them to do it as a party of “jobs-first Brexit or Remain vs no deal”. There is no reconciling the two halves of the country and they need to accept that now.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
How the fuck did the Tories still do so well with the same candidate? Some parts of this country are beyond help.

Anyway it looks like so good ol' tactical voting and the Brexit party messed it up for Boris. Shame that.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
How the fuck did the Tories still do so well with the same candidate? Some parts of this country are beyond help.

Anyway it looks like so good ol' tactical voting and the Brexit party messed it up for Boris. Shame that.
Yeah, he came close to keeping the seat, but Neil Brown envelopes Hamilton can still get elected so it shouldn't be a surprise.
 

softfocus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
308
Labours lousy performance comes down to nobody giving a shit due to it being a seat they saw they couldn’t win. Still disappointing that they didn’t even try, but at least Tories lost another seat so there’s always that.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Labours lousy performance comes down to nobody giving a shit due to it being a seat they saw they couldn’t win. Still disappointing that they didn’t even try, but at least Tories lost another seat so there’s always that.
If they did try then it would be a dodgy Tory MP gloating in the papers today, it couldn't have gone better.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,676
London
This doesn't bode well for a general election tbh. If Conservatives got BXP to go to them they'd win easily. Yes it's a nail in the coffin now, but it shows Boris No Deal is a winning electoral strategy. He will be MORE confident entering a General election after this. Thanks to our shit electoral system.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,114
Disgusting that Chris Davies still got 39% of the vote even after a conviction for submitting false expenses. People really don’t give a shit, do they?

In this country we have a twisted and perverse sense of justice that routinely lets politicians off the hook for lying, cheating and stealing on the one hand, and has gnashing our teeth if a poor person claims more benefits than they’re entitled to on the other.
That mythologised British sense of fair play at work again innit
 

m.i.s.

Member
Oct 30, 2017
133
England, UK
Interesting to see the socialists decry the "centrists" when they're the only ones with enough bollocks to stand against Brexit, which will wreak the kind of economic damage on the poor your lot allegedly want to avoid.
Had it not been the the Lib-Dumbs going into coalition with that fat, lazy "call me dave", "chillaxing" Camoron govt, we wouldn't even be in this mess as documented articles have shown that austerity directly led to the Leave vote winning.

There's no remorse over the economically illiterate austerity agenda that led to the slowest post-crisis economic recovery in centuries, and which still hasn't eliminated the deficit despite the fact they said it would have done before May 2015 (over four years ago).
There's no remorse over helping Theresa May slash the police force by 21,000 and close literally hundreds of police stations, which has contributed to the violent crime epidemic we're suffering today.
There's no remorse over the brutal Tory sanctions regime, nor the despicable disability denial system that has resulted in literally thousands of people dying within weeks of being declared "fit for work" and thrown off their disability benefits.
There's no remorse over Lib-Dem votes in favour of deeply illiberal policies like secret courts, the gagging law, bedroom tax, dripa, Theresa May's Hostile Environment, and the catastrophic strategy of turning Libya into a lawless terrorism breeding ground like Blair and Bush did to Iraq.
And worst of all there's no remorse about the way the far-right blamed the collapsing living standards these disgusting policies causes on immigrants and the EU in order to promote Brexit, and the Lib-Dems just bit their tongues, because any effort to explain that the real causes of the living standards collapse (austerity, wage repression, infrastructure under-investment, public service cuts, vandalism of the social safety net) would have illustrated their own complicity. So they just stayed silent and let the far-right win.
AAV
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
Had it not been the the Lib-Dumbs going into coalition with that fat, lazy "call me dave", "chillaxing" Camoron govt, we wouldn't even be in this mess as documented articles have shown that austerity directly led to the Leave vote winning.
Austerity was happening one way or another. Do you actually remember that little about 2010?
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
Austerity is a political choice and the Lib Dems helped facilitate it. No point trying to rewrite history and I think Jo Swinson is very aware of the criticism.
It is a political choice. It was one that all three parties would have gone through with, to varying degrees, had they won outright. The notion that austerity wouldn't have happened had the Libs not gone into coalition is ridiculous. We would have had a minority Conservative government, pushing for austerity, and a general election in a country that had largely bought the notion that we had to tighten the purse strings to handle the financial crisis brought about by a global financial crisis Labour (/s). The user I was responding to is implying that austerity would not have happened if not for the Liberal Democrats. Yet you accuse me of rewriting history.
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
398
Even Labour were promising austerity at the time, which is a fact they've managed to avoid dealing with simply because they weren't the ones in government.
 

m.i.s.

Member
Oct 30, 2017
133
England, UK
Austerity was happening one way or another. Do you actually remember that little about 2010?
I'm sorry, what was your point again? You know, besides white-washing the LD's and insulting my intelligence?

The LD's had other choices besides going into bed with the Tories and reneging on virtually every major manifesto commitment.

The economy was growing under Darling, until that towel folder and economic illiterate Osborne stopped it dead in it's tracks. Yes, Ed Milliband had notionally accepted the need for economic "austerity" but I doubt even he would have passed deeply illiberal and damaging policies that Swinson / Clegg / Vince did.

And Swinson has demonstrated she has learnt absolutely nothing by already ruling out a coalition with Labour under JC.



Source: Sarah Teather / Jo Swinson

You know, give it four or five years -- after we've left the European Union -- Swinson will be out and probably working in the private sector [like Clegg] in some vastly overpaid job.
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
398
I'm sorry, what was your point again? You know, besides white-washing the LD's and insulting my intelligence?

The LD's had other choices besides going into bed with the Tories and reneging on virtually every major manifesto commitment.

The economy was growing under Darling, until that towel folder and economic illiterate Osborne stopped it dead in it's tracks. Yes, Ed Milliband had notionally accepted the need for economic "austerity" but I doubt even he would have passed deeply illiberal policies that Swinson / Clegg / Vince did.

And Swinson has demonstrated she has learnt absolutely nothing by already ruling out a coalition with Labour under JC.



Source: Sarah Teather / Jo Swinson

You know, give it four or five years -- after we've left the European Union -- Swinson will be out and probably working in the private sector [like Clegg] in some vastly overpaid job.
Ed Milliband wasn't Labour leader in 2010.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
I'm sorry, what was your point again? You know, besides white-washing the LD's and insulting my intelligence?
I'm not insulting your intelligence, I'm questioning your recollection of the political situation in 2010.

The LD's had other choices besides going into bed with the Tories and reneging on virtually every major manifesto commitment.
Of course they did, and I wish they hadn't and took a principled stand, but, I think we'd have got a Conservative majority in the Autumn had they happened and I think we'd have seen the same or worse austerity as a result.

The economy was growing under Darling, until that towel folder and economic illiterate Osborne stopped it dead in it's tracks. Yes, Ed Milliband had notionally accepted the need for economic "austerity" but I doubt even he would have passed deeply illiberal and damaging policies that Swinson / Clegg / Vince did.
The Prime Minister/Labour Leader was Gordon Brown at the time, he was tired and the country was tired of him. If Ed had succeeded him (not a certainty if a snap election was a possibility I'd guess), he would have likely faced the same defeat in 2010 as in 2015.

And Swinson has demonstrated she has learnt absolutely nothing by already ruling out a coalition with Labour under JC.
(They've also ruled out coalition with the Conservatives - they've definitely learned something).

You know, give it four or five years -- after we've left the European Union -- Swinson will be out and probably working in the private sector [like Clegg] in some vastly overpaid job.
Quite probably, yes. Why do you think I'm a cheerleader for her?
 

m.i.s.

Member
Oct 30, 2017
133
England, UK
Even Labour were promising austerity at the time, which is a fact they've managed to avoid dealing with simply because they weren't the ones in government.
Since that time, Labour have had a change of Leader (who had nothing to do with those policies because he consistently) voted against them and a transformation in it's social, economic and political program. In other words, they've moved on from Bliar. It's the Blairites who refuse to move on and get with the changing times.

Ed Milliband wasn't Labour leader in 2010.
Do some basic fact checking before you make a fool of yourself in a public forum. :o)
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
398
Since that time, Labour have had a change of Leader (who had nothing to do with those policies because he consistently) voted against them and a transformation in it's social, economic and political program. In other words, they've moved on from Bliar. It's the Blairites who refuse to move on and get with the changing times.



Do some basic fact checking before you make a fool of yourself in a public forum. :o)
Quite obvious the context is in terms of the 2010 GE, in which Gordon Brown was leader, and of course would have remained so had Labour won that election.

And "We would have done it then, but wouldn't now" is a poor defence when your argument is "They did it then, so they definitely would do it now, no matter what they say".
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,988
Chesire, UK
Can't believe Labour did so badly (12.5% down) that they almost lost their deposit and only beat the Monster Raving Loony Party and UKIP - a joke and a dead party whose base has transferred to another that doubled Labour's share. This may not have been a Labour seat by any stretch of the imagination, but this paints a picture. How much more of this sort of stuff needs to happen before the party wakes up and realizes something needs to happen to stop a horrific electoral slide in the next GE?
Tactical voting in a Lib Dem / Tory marginal depressed the Labour vote. This means nothing in the wider landscape.

Even Labour were promising austerity at the time, which is a fact they've managed to avoid dealing with simply because they weren't the ones in government.
Actually we dealt with it by electing the one candidate for leader who opposed it.

Have people forgotten how Corbyn won in the first place?
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
398
Actually we dealt with it by electing the one candidate for leader who opposed it.

Have people forgotten how Corbyn won in the first place?
When attacking a political party for something that happened in the past, I do also think it's important to bear in mind whether the party you support would have also done exactly the same thing.

There was wide support for austerity, to varying degrees, across all the main parties in 2010, and it's also disingenuous to state that only people who opposed it then would not continue with it now. Are only Labour allowed to shift their opinion on policy over the course of 10 years?
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,988
Chesire, UK
When attacking a political party for something that happened in the past, I do also think it's important to bear in mind whether the party you support would have also done exactly the same thing.

There was wide support for austerity, to varying degrees, across all the main parties in 2010, and it's also disingenuous to state that only people who opposed it then would not continue with it now. Are only Labour allowed to shift their opinion on policy over the course of 10 years?
Opinions are flimsy. Labour are the only party that have chosen to shift their leadership.

The Tories are still led by the authors of Austerity.

The Lib Dems are still led by the authors of Austerity.

Labour are not led by people who were supportive of Austerity. That is the difference.


Everyone is entitled to change their mind, but if the options are:

A) Someone who used to think jumping off a cliff was a good idea, but now wants to maybe abseil down half-way instead.

B) Someone who always thought jumping off a cliff was stupid, and still doesn't want to climb down the cliff at all.

Then I'll take B.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Cutting back and balancing the books is a long way from doing exactly the same thing, I don't think Brown would have run around screaming about the money running dry either/killing the growth under way.

There's also a good chance Brown might have replaced the Chancellor if he had won the general election as they didn't see eye to eye.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,101
Everyone is entitled to change their mind, but if the options are:

A) Someone who used to think jumping off a cliff was a good idea, but now wants to maybe abseil down half-way instead.

B) Someone who always thought jumping off a cliff was stupid, and still doesn't want to climb down the cliff at all.

Then I'll take B.
A sounds like Corbyn on Brexit :S
B sounds a lot like the Liberal Democrats on Brexit :S
 
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PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
London
Farage calling Trump a genius for telling the Congress women to go back home is the dumbest fucking thing ever.

There's no master tactician in the skull of Trump, just easily pleased followers.
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
In before “what do experts know” and project OOF


Another black mark against the big Boris plan
That's one of those things I agree they should stop taxing, change the law and actually dump money into just to do it. Properly wiring the country should be seen as an essential service.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,709
The Ocean
That's one of those things I agree they should stop taxing, change the law and actually dump money into just to do it. Properly wiring the country should be seen as an essential service.
There’s a good bit near the end of that where it makes sense to use a mix of wired and 5G solutions for remotely located homes. Doesn’t make sense to dig up the country for one farmer in the middle of nowherewhrn a 5G connection does the job
 

null

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
There’s a good bit near the end of that where it makes sense to use a mix of wired and 5G solutions for remotely located homes. Doesn’t make sense to dig up the country for one farmer in the middle of nowherewhrn a 5G connection does the job
that's true, it definitely makes sense to do wireless in some areas. There's still quite a few black spots in this country though which could be solved with better planning.