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CeeCee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,118
https://www.ft.com/content/8e592d24-c482-11e7-a1d2-6786f39ef675

Sometimes a nation does well to see itself through the eyes of others. Never has that been truer of Britain. To old friends, Great Britain, as they used to call it, is in the clasp of an inexplicable fever. Renowned for solidity and pragmatism, the Brits have fallen to rage and resentment. Carefully judged self-interest has surrendered to dangerous dogmatism.


I have spent two months or so living in Berlin. Every conversation starts with the same question: "What's happened"? The Germans are not about to rescue Britain from the Brexit mess, but they are genuinely baffled, and not unconcerned, as to how things have reached this sorry pass. Ministerial sackings and lurid tales of sexual harassment at Westminster compound the confusion.


My answer is that government and parliament have lost control. A majority of MPs think Brexit is a mistake but feel obliged to pursue it lest they be accused of defying what the tabloids declare to be "the will of the people". This is what happens when the subtle checks and balances of representative democracy are subordinated to the crude majoritarianism of referendums. Germans, ever mindful of what happened in the 1930s, understand this.


Brexit represents the biggest upheaval since 1945 in Britain's political and economic life — an enterprise of enormous complexity and consequence. It is all-consuming. Yet the project is being steered, if that is the right word, by an administration drained of political authority by a misjudged election and by a Conservative party at war with itself.


Theresa May's premiership is shaped above all by her weakness. She is openly defied by her own ministers and held hostage to the mendacity and ambition of Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary. The Tories are as divided as ever about Britain's relationship with its continent. Everyone backs Brexit, or so they pretend. They cannot agree on what it means.


You could say that the party has been here before. During the 19th century it was broken by the Corn Laws and in the early 20th by an argument about imperial trading preferences. This time, though, Britain's travails run deeper than Tory infighting. The opposition Labour party has chosen this moment to turn for its leader to the far distant fringes of leftwing politics.


Steeped in anti-Americanism and an apologist for Russia's Vladimir Putin, Jeremy Corbyn's outlook was fixed during the 1970s. Tory Brexiters see the EU as an affront to Britain's imperial past. Mr Corbyn hails from a small far left sect that views Brussels as a capitalist plot. Political opportunism prompts him to disrupt the government's Brexit negotiations; his real goal is to force an election and declare socialism in one country.


What used to be called the British establishment looks on with awful bewilderment. Scarcely a single senior official in Whitehall thinks Brexit a good idea. The nation's diplomats think it will diminish the country's influence abroad. The Treasury's assessment is framed in terms of degrees of damage. Bad, very bad or catastrophic? The Bank of England agrees.


None of this much troubles the English nationalists. Michael Gove, a leading cabinet Brexiter, publicly disdains the views of "experts". Mark Carney, the bank governor, is cast as an "enemy" of Brexit. Mr Johnson promotes the fantasy of a second Elizabethan age.


Good public servants that they are, the officials do their best to navigate the government's frequent swerves and to retain a few shreds of credibility with their EU interlocutors. This admirable loyalty recalls that of the British cavalry during the Crimean war who obeyed the order to ride directly into the Russian guns. As Tennyson observed: "Theirs not to make reply,/ Theirs not to reason why".


Where we go from here can only be guessed. Mrs May could be toppled tomorrow. Brexit deadlock could be a catalyst for another election. Mr Corbyn might win. There is a majority in parliament for what could be called soft Brexit, but it is locked up within the two main parties. There is no majority for any outcome amenable to Messrs Johnson and Gove.


The EU27 are not about to offer Britain an agreement tailored to the competing factions in the Tory party. Mrs May's talk of a bespoke arrangement to preserve the advantages of the single market while shedding the responsibilities is greeted elsewhere with unalloyed scorn.


Aside from that of crashing out, the choice is between a trade deal such as the one between the EU and Canada, or an association akin to that enjoyed by Norway. The first would carry huge economic cost; the second would draw the wrath of the Tory zealots. Both would require a period of transition reaching well beyond the two years imagined by Mrs May.


Eighteen months ago I wrote that Britain's politics were starting to imitate those of Greece. At the time I might have admitted a certain hyperbole. Now I think the parallel understates the British condition. The last hope is that there is a hidden irony in all this: that the political chaos wrought by the referendum is the only thing that could stop Brexit happening.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,031
I can't say I like the "Prior to Brexit, Britain was governed by a series of benevolent god kings with mathematic precision, revered the world over for their inhuman intellect and chiselled physique" narrative that's emerging.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
True, UK isn't a beacon of perfection and calmness but they are usually professional in most matters the politicians don't stick their oars into to be seen as doing something, it's really mostly shit government policy on public services and stupid wars. The UK has really gone daft during the Tory reign, people are morons, media is mostly shit, politicians in power are embarrassing and dangerous, opposition was nothing. People are exhausted, angry and a few scumbags gave them a target which leads to the current shitshow.

It is baffling. Scary to think what they actually see the UK being like post Brexit. They are cowards or actually insane. There is enough cowards there to change the tone but they won't speak up.
 
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Dan

Dan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,950
True, UK isn't a beacon of perfection and calmness but they are usually professional in most matters the politicians don't stick their oars into to be seen as doing something, it's really mostly shit government policy on public services and stupid wars. The UK has really gone daft during the Tory reign, people are morons, media is mostly shit, politicians in power are embarrassing and dangerous, opposition was nothing. People are exhausted, angry and a few scumbags gave them a target which leads to the current shitshow.

It is baffling. Scary to think what they actually see the UK being like post Brexit. They are cowards or actually insane. There is enough cowards there to change the tone but they won't speak up.

To be fair that's not exclusive to Tory governments. A lot of people felt that under Blair's Labour government in the early 2000s, especially with the disastrous opposition shown by the Conservatives lead by Hague, Howard and Iain Duncan Smith..
 

Burai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,084
Blair could have really changed the landscape when it came to Fleet Street's relationship with Westminster. He did the country a massive disservice when he jumped into bed with Murdoch. With or without the Sun, there was no way the Tories were winning in 1997 or 2001.
 

Facism

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,918
Indeed, I'm quite surprised at that, because as I understand Turkey were really very, very upset about that incident. Boris doesn't get their opprobrium because he apparently hated that line of attack (as per All Out War), and because he's of Turkish decent.
Yeh his great grandad was a journalist, then a politician who worked against the interest of his nation and was executed by a mob for sedition and treason.

Seeing some parallels there
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
There's no current affairs OT so although this is legal rather than political news I'm posting it here. About a year ago some British Uber drivers won an Employment Tribunal case establishing that they are employees and Uber is obliged to make provision for sick days, comply with minimum wage legislation, and so on. Uber appealed stating that drivers are self-employed, while starting to move towards complying in some respects. Now the Employment Appeals Tribunal has affirmed the original ruling.

There is no word yet as to whether Uber will appeal, although they're expected to do so.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/10/uber-loses-appeal-employment-rights-workers
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,687
So are these people now classed as employees? Because that's got massive implications on both sides of the equation if so.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,687
I employ contractors that you could make the same argument for, so it's hitting a bit close to home.

(They work at their own premises, with their own equipment... but then so do these drivers.)
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
Tha's a good point, how do you make the distinction legally between someone stuck as a "contractor" for Amazon with a rented delivery van who is an employee in all but name, and say, a contractor programmer on temporary assignment? I don't know

Fuck the "gig economy" in general, though.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
I wonder how that'd work. Does it only count when they're on the clock? If so, I'd be surprised if any of them earn under minimum wage now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
607
Studied a bit of law here:

We have a few tests that can be used in the courts to establish whether someone is an employee or a worker. The current favoured one is the 'Mixed Test'. Under this test, the court will ask:

  • Did the employee agree for a wage he would provide his own work for the employer?
    ◊ Wage in exchange for personal service
  • Did the employee agree to be subject to the employer's control
    ◊ Overall control, does not need to be minute to minute
  • Are all other provisions consistent with a contract of employment
    ◊ i.e. tax, label, tools, workforce, profit, risk.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,687
It's only point 3 where there's any doubt for us really.

At the end of the day...

1: Contractors do agree to do x amount of work for y pay... which is technically "a wage".
2: They are under your control "do this work before you do that work for us" / "that work isn't good enough, do it better or don't get your invoice paid / get more work".

As for 3. They have their own tools, do their own tax, and choose their own rates / timescales for jobs. I guess maybe that's the main difference. Though if we said to them "you get X per unit of work" then I'd still consider them a contractor, because we don't control when they work, nor where they work, nor provide them with anything they need to work. Sure, we can request that they're around at certain times, but ultimately that's up to them (and if we didn't like their response, we wouldn't use them).

Back when I was a contractor, we based it largely off the IR35 rules.... but it appears this ruling is even harsher in how it deems contractor vs employee.
 

J tourettes

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
205
It's only point 3 where there's any doubt for us really.

At the end of the day...

1: Contractors do agree to do x amount of work for y pay... which is technically "a wage".
2: They are under your control "do this work before you do that work for us" / "that work isn't good enough, do it better or don't get your invoice paid / get more work".

As for 3. They have their own tools, do their own tax, and choose their own rates / timescales for jobs. I guess maybe that's the main difference. Though if we said to them "you get X per unit of work" then I'd still consider them a contractor, because we don't control when they work, nor where they work, nor provide them with anything they need to work. Sure, we can request that they're around at certain times, but ultimately that's up to them (and if we didn't like their response, we wouldn't use them).

Back when I was a contractor, we based it largely off the IR35 rules.... but it appears this ruling is even harsher in how it deems contractor vs employee.
Do they predominantly work for you? How long have they been working for you?

I work in construction and the self employment laws have really been tightened up over the past few years.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
To be fair that's not exclusive to Tory governments. A lot of people felt that under Blair's Labour government in the early 2000s, especially with the disastrous opposition shown by the Conservatives lead by Hague, Howard and Iain Duncan Smith..

Sure, usually the case but nothing this bad and consistent. Labour had their share of messes but Tories are an absolute disaster and a very dangerous one that can't be easily remedied. The wars were Labour at their worst that we still feel today and the Tories magnified that with Libya and Syria. There is no times of calm and dangerous, blinded fools holding the wheel. You could at least feel comfort with Labour that they wouldn't drive you off a cliff and have semblance of empathy even though their ideas didn't pan out. I don't feel any party has the will or sense to get us through the next few years without completely screwing us for the wrong reasons when they didn't have to.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,687
Do they predominantly work for you? How long have they been working for you?

I work in construction and the self employment laws have really been tightened up over the past few years.
I would assume they mostly do, but no way to say. As for how long, probably on and off for a couple of years (we don't always need them).
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,954
According to an ex-colleague one test for a contractor was exclusivity. She semi-retired and switched to being a consultant instead of an employee and she had to prove that she had multiple clients to avoid being seen as still employed by us.
Since she provided similar services to other companies, she was easily classed as a contractor not an employee.
True contractors can set up their own company too.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,882
Alex Salmond getting a show on RT made me laugh. It's almost like a broadcaster who is backed by and supports Putin would love nothing more than to continue to fracture and splinter Europe into piece meal chunks would happily have the former SNP leader on the network.
 

zeph1rus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13


In more Bozza: a deplorable floppy haired fat hugh grant news, here is our Boris meeting Josph Mifsud (Right). You may remember his name from the FBI's indictment of George Papadopolous.

It would be beautiful if this ridiculous government ends up getting brought down along with Trump.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Alex Salmond getting a show on RT made me laugh. It's almost like a broadcaster who is backed by and supports Putin would love nothing more than to continue to fracture and splinter Europe into piece meal chunks would happily have the former SNP leader on the network.

Yeah, quite shameful by him and hilariously obvious from Russia. Salmond does say some good things from time to time but I wish he would shut up most of time. Nobody is going to watch his show, think Farage was on RT a lot too, everybody knows it's Russian state news.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London


In more Bozza: a deplorable floppy haired fat hugh grant news, here is our Boris meeting Josph Mifsud (Right). You may remember his name from the FBI's indictment of George Papadopolous.

It would be beautiful if this ridiculous government ends up getting brought down along with Trump.


I try not to get all tin-foil hatty , but the rumbling in the background about Aaron Banks and things like this start raising my hopes for a big clear out.
 

Sammex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,711
Priti Patel 'overwhelmed' by support after quitting cabinet

The Conservative MP did not take any questions during her visit, but told the BBC: "I've been overwhelmed with support from colleagues across the political divide.

"Of course, nothing is more humbling than the support I've received from my constituents.

"I look forward to returning to Parliament on Monday where I will continue to be a strong voice for Witham and Britain."

_98709385_priti_02.jpg

It's almost as if she did nothing wrong.
 

Burai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,084


In more Bozza: a deplorable floppy haired fat hugh grant news, here is our Boris meeting Josph Mifsud (Right). You may remember his name from the FBI's indictment of George Papadopolous.

It would be beautiful if this ridiculous government ends up getting brought down along with Trump.


To be fair to Boris, he looks like he's been pounced on for that photo. He looks like he'd rather be, and looks like he's already heading, somewhere else.

As much as I'd like to bring Boris down, he really isn't meeting anyone in that photo.
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
Government collapse, new Tory leadership elections, possible general election, Brexit thrown into utter chaos, and coming to a head around Christmas time?
There would be literally zero threat to Brexit happening if Cobryn was Prime Minister. He wants it badly and has done for 30 years.
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
I still maintain my basic timeline: May goes in mid-December, the Tory leadership contest ends in another coronation (the alternative is a leadership contest so bloody it risks ripping the party apart) ... IMO of a young cabinet minister like Williamson.

We get as far as the March negotiations, the new leader is in the middle of their honeymoon and we're in a Brexiteer wet dream of a hard-as-possible Brexit. New PM calls an election which has been planned since they took over with the gambit being that running a broadly competent campaign will get them majority by grabbing the conservative working class vote May failed to get.

Basically, new leader honeymoon + hard Brexit causing a crisis that the Tories can blame on everyone but themselves + Corbyn = a workable Tory majority. That'd be my plan if I was plotting for Tory victory next time
 

Zaph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,074
Now Gove too? These cunts are just happily throwing Zaghari-Ratcliff under the bus. Tories have no regard for anything but themselves.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
It's slimy Gove, he's probably giving Boris some cover and thinking about future cabinet job security.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
I don't think there's anyone in British politics I despise more than Gove. He seems like such a caricature of a human being. I walked past him in Notting Hill the other week and he was just meandering around in a daze, like he had had a brief epiphany that he has systematically crippled every department he's ever been flung into, and was overwhelmed by his own ineptitude.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Has there been any talk about the fallout from this letter to May from the two dickheads?

I know there is talk about 40 MPs potentially signing a letter of no confidence but I haven't seen anything since.

On a separate and funny note, I saw this comment on the latest Jonathan Pie video and thought it was pretty funny.
Please take the time to read this appeal:
Are you aware that most Tory MP's have never had the benefits of a happy family upbringing ? That most Tory MP's were brought up by paid help or a Nanny ? That some Tory MP's only know their parents name because it is displayed on their Trust Fund ? That their closest confidant and friend is their butler ? If you can spare just 10 minutes a week please Adopt a Tory MP, send them a message or a letter and tell them that they are loved, that there is a better way. Encourage them to integrate with people , you know real people. Please adopt a Tory MP today and show them the way to a better life.

Please remember a Tory MP is not just for Christmas, they can be found dipping into the public cookie jar at all times of the year. They require the most exquisite diet, because of their fragile constitution. They also need lots of care and also light exercise once a year. A reasonable sized mansion is suggested for housing your Tory MP and a large amount of public money should be set aside for future upgrades - duck ponds, moats; the usual.

Special cases:
Jacob Rees-Mogg - Provided you can afford to look after his mother in-laws ancestral home which is a 300 room mansion, as it may need further repairs. Also you should be hypocrite tolerant and have a very high boredom threshold.
Actually taking into account the considerable challenge presented by Rees-Mogg, we've decided to waive any adoption fees.

Boris Johnson - make sure you don't let him anywhere near journalists or chinese property developers, or anyone ethnically different to him. While, we are still working on his people skills, he is generally more comfortable in the company of other scarecrows.

Priti "vacant" Patel - unfortunately this Tory MP is no longer available. She may be biting the bullet in return for a "mutual nice letter in the papers, full of the worst BS you've ever read"

I should point out that two Tory MP's are already spoken for.
Mrs.May has been adopted by a poker expert, Mr B.L.Zebub , apparently he has "reserved a special place" for her, which is nice.

Mr.J.Hunt has also been reserved , by a gentleman named God, all he said was and i quote "I just need to find out where i went wrong"
 

Theonik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
852
I still maintain my basic timeline: May goes in mid-December, the Tory leadership contest ends in another coronation (the alternative is a leadership contest so bloody it risks ripping the party apart) ... IMO of a young cabinet minister like Williamson.

We get as far as the March negotiations, the new leader is in the middle of their honeymoon and we're in a Brexiteer wet dream of a hard-as-possible Brexit. New PM calls an election which has been planned since they took over with the gambit being that running a broadly competent campaign will get them majority by grabbing the conservative working class vote May failed to get.

Basically, new leader honeymoon + hard Brexit causing a crisis that the Tories can blame on everyone but themselves + Corbyn = a workable Tory majority. That'd be my plan if I was plotting for Tory victory next time
This sounds crazy enough to be something the conservatives try out.
It would explode in their face pretty spectacularly.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
This sounds crazy enough to be something the conservatives try out.
It would explode in their face pretty spectacularly.

Yeah, I can see it going badly for a few reasons, internal party issues and then electoral. The election went badly for May and ever since then the party has been making it worse.
 

FSP

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,644
London, United Kingdom
The basic strategy the Tories adopted under Timothy and Hill was extremely well done - they made an invincible ice queen who would drive through Brexit for the good of the country. The issue was that May then decided to smash apart their narrative by calling a GE.

If they want to win next time they have to try that again with someone who's not the Invisible Woman.
 
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