UK PoliticsERA |OT1| - Strong and Stable Government? No. Coalition Of Chaos! PART 2

[Dirtyshubb]

Its basically:

You can chose between whatever crap deal we can manage to get OR we can drop out with no deal

All bluster and no substance from what i can see.

 

[theaface]

so is this vote any good or not, there is large varying opinions, some say it is nothing more than a token vote for a cliff edge or bad deal, others are saying it is a huge gift to remainers to stop Brexit.

As I understood it the vote looked like a take it or leave it vote, but I might be wrong?

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Are we talking about the concession? If so, I read it as an empty token gesture by David and May to quell any rebellion. It gives them absolutely authority to negotiate whatever they want and then at 2 minutes to midnight say to parliament take it or leave it, with leave it essentially being 'no deal'. Which creates the very real possibility of Parliament getting to choose between a bad deal and a worse deal. Hardly democracy's finest hour.

The principle should be one of either accept the deal that the government has negotiated, or rescind A50 and revert to the status quo. But we know the loonies would never allow that.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Parliament had the option of putting their foot down and demanding actual scrutiny in February. They were too shit scared to be seen as confounding the will of the people. The words barn, door, horse and bolted spring to mind.

 

[PJV3]

I really hope parliament does its job, Davis likes to pretend the general election didn't happen, but it did.

A few Tory MPs doing the right thing will force government to meet reality and we might end up with something that isn't nation fucking in a few years time.

 

[Psychotext]

He does go above and beyond even for your usual right wing cunt, I mean, Alabama.

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To be clear, I meant a cunt that's right wing, rather than your garden variety right wing cunt.

 

[PJV3]

To be clear, I meant a cunt that's right wing, rather than your garden variety right wing cunt.

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We're on the same page, it takes a special kind of cunt to leave the UK and campaign in Alabama for a maniac.

That's probably very unappealing for the average Conservative.

 

[Jackpot]

Prices have risen again at my local Tesco.

 

[*Splinter]

Its basically:

You can chose between whatever crap deal we can manage to get OR we can drop out with no deal

All bluster and no substance from what i can see.

Click to shrink...

Well no deal is better than a bad deal, or so I hear ;)

 

[Crocks]

Are we talking about the concession? If so, I read it as an empty token gesture by David and May to quell any rebellion. It gives them absolutely authority to negotiate whatever they want and then at 2 minutes to midnight say to parliament take it or leave it, with leave it essentially being 'no deal'. Which creates the very real possibility of Parliament getting to choose between a bad deal and a worse deal. Hardly democracy's finest hour.

The principle should be one of either accept the deal that the government has negotiated, or rescind A50 and revert to the status quo. But we know the loonies would never allow that.

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I doubt the EU would, either, to be honest. Or, rather, if they thought that was actually a possibility, they'd never give a single concession.

 

[Jackpot]

Official twitter account for Dept of International Trade (Liam Fox's dept) tweeted a Daily Mail article that attacks the Treasury Dept's (Hammond's dept) "false" Brexit forecasts. Tweet has since been deleted.

 

[Theonik]

I wonder if the whole government will tear itself apart before May topples.

 

[Protome]

I wonder if the whole government will tear itself apart before May topples.

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They should get together and arrange one day for both things to happen at once.

Also make it a bank holiday.

 

[Cronen]

Why is Boris Johnson's dad going to be on I'm A Celebrity...?

Link

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Why is Boris Johnson's dad going to be on I'm A Celebrity...?

Link

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'ahh see? Boris is alright, his dad's a laugh on jungle so he must be alright'

 

[Uzzy]

The Sun ran an article today about BBC workers sleeping at their desks. The BBC responded thusly.

 

[firehawk12]

The Sun ran an article today about BBC workers sleeping at their desks. The BBC responded thusly.

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Wow.

 

[russi]

Jesus Farage is ony 53, I guess being an hateful cunt really ages a person

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The Sun ran an article today about BBC workers sleeping at their desks. The BBC responded thusly.

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Someone somewhere is screaming about impartiality.

 

[Deleted member 835]

 

[FSP]

There's a very good reason that many political groups hate the BBC, and it's down to the fact that it's one of the most influential and trusted sources of news on the planet.

I don't always trust the BBC but I do care about their input.

 

[Tygre]

The Sun ran an article today about BBC workers sleeping at their desks. The BBC responded thusly.

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A little follow up on the above:

A purer 1-10 scale of trustworthiness puts The Sun bottom, below even The Daily Star, with the BBC streets ahead of anything.

Twitter and Facebook are also hearteningly low.

Fuck The Sun.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Guys, I watched five seconds of Question Time and am suffering from what the doctor described as "Basically a thousand aneurysms at once."

 

[Psychotext]

Was it filled with the usual quota of angry middle aged white men?

 

[LL_Decitrig]

A little follow up on the above:

A purer 1-10 scale of trustworthiness puts The Sun bottom, below even The Daily Star, with the BBC streets ahead of anything.

Twitter and Facebook are also hearteningly low.

Fuck The Sun.

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I'd tend to go for one of the broadsheets, usually The Guardian, because the BBC's style favours brevity and seldom gives the kind of detail I expect. I think they do a decent job, though, it's purely a matter of my preferred style.

 

[empty feat]

Study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths

Cameron and co. with as much blood on their hands as Blair.

 

[Pixieking]

Study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths

Cameron and co. with as much blood on their hands as Blair.

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Do we have to bring Blair into it? Can we not just decry the policy on austerity, and the government's willingness to leave the poor to rot?

 

[WhateverItTakes]

People trust ITV news second most? I always thought they were irrelevant tbh

 

[bawjaws]

I think ITN are well-respected, aren't they? They do the news for ITV, channel 4 and channel 5 and have a solid, well-established rep for producing good news coverage.

 

[Protome]

People trust ITV news second most? I always thought they were irrelevant tbh

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Assuming it's taking regional versions into account, anecdotally I know a bunch of people who prefer STVs news coverage to BBCs because they cover Scottish stuff more thoroughly and in a more timely fashion.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths

Cameron and co. with as much blood on their hands as Blair.

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Funny how this is barely being covered by some places, pretty sure BBC haven't said anything last I checked.

Absolutely shocking stats though, I mean if you told me it was 10,000 I would have been horrified but up to 200,000?! Something seriously needs to be done and people need to make a huge stink about it.

When you have the government accused of economic murder I think something is seriously fucked.

 

[Mr. Sam]

From the study itself:

Spending constraints between 2010 and 2014 were associated with an estimated 45 368 (95% CI 34 530 to 56 206) higher than expected number of deaths compared with pre-2010 trends. Deaths in those aged ≥60 and in care homes accounted for the majority. PES was more strongly linked with care home and home mortality than PEH, with each £10 per capita decline in real PES associated with an increase of 5.10 (3.65–6.54) (p<0.001) care home deaths per 100 000. These associations persisted in lag analyses and after adjustment for macroeconomic factors. Furthermore, we found that changes in real PES per capita may be linked to mortality mostly via changes in nurse numbers. Projections to 2020 based on 2009-2014 trend was cumulatively linked to an estimated 152 141 (95% CI 134 597 and 169 685) additional deaths.

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This is before going into the data and methodology, which I'm not going to pretend to be qualified or disposed to do.

 

[empty feat]

Do we have to bring Blair into it? Can we not just decry the policy on austerity, and the government's willingness to leave the poor to rot?

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You're probably right, but it's so unsettling that people will almost universally condemn Blair, but there are still people who defend austerity dogma and believe the Tories are making the "hard decisions".

This draws comparisons with both their failings.

 

[JonathanEx]

Guys, I watched five seconds of Question Time and am suffering from what the doctor described as "Basically a thousand aneurysms at once."

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I have long realised watching Question Time is a waste of time. It's just weaponised televised trolling, which the POLITICIANS NEED TO SORT OUT. (audience claps)

 

[Lagamorph]

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I don't understand why Hammond is seen as so low. He's pretty much the only person in the cabinet with a remotely level head at the moment. I can only assume it's purely because he's Chancellor, which pretty much equals automatic hate.

 

[8bit]

I have long realised watching Question Time is a waste of time. It's just weaponised televised trolling, which the POLITICIANS NEED TO SORT OUT. (audience claps)

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It's Jeremy Kyle for people with jobs.

 

[Pixieking]

You're probably right, but it's so unsettling that people will almost universally condemn Blair, but there are still people who defend austerity dogma and believe the Tories are making the "hard decisions".

This draws comparisons with both their failings.

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Ah, point. I'm so used to the mindset that no right-thinking person could defend austerity that I only saw one side of it.

 

[Dan]

Do we have to bring Blair into it? Can we not just decry the policy on austerity, and the government's willingness to leave the poor to rot?

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I'd say Tony would be lucky to only have 120,000 deaths on his hands.

 

[Pixieking]

I'd say Tony would be lucky to only have 120,000 deaths on his hands.

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I get it - his actions led to a huge number of deaths, and instability in the middle-east. But that's still a crummy thing to say.

 

[Dan]

I get it - his actions led to a huge number of deaths, and instability in the middle-east. But that's still a crummy thing to say.

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You might think it's crummy, I think a lot of people would say it's accurate.

 

[Pixieking]

You might think it's crummy, I think a lot of people would say it's accurate.

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Regardless of accuracy, it makes light of the number of people who have died via the Conservative government's austerity policies. To use the deaths of over one hundred thousand people in such a glib fashion... Urgh. This isn't a competition, and to say what you did minimises their deaths as it highlights the number of Iraq deaths.

But whatevs. Your choice to use your words. I've said my piece.

 

[Crocks]

It's a stupid thing to say whatever the case, it's irrelevant. You can look at individual policies and see their effects. Go to war? It leads to deaths (shocker). Cut funding at hospitals? It leads to deaths (shocker). Death tolls aren't some score to tot up.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I have long realised watching Question Time is a waste of time. It's just weaponised televised trolling, which the POLITICIANS NEED TO SORT OUT. (audience claps)

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It does indeed seem as though you can get a round of applause for the most banal, vapid points, provided you state them with a totally unnecessary level of FORCE AND VOLUME *standing ovation*

 

[Dan]

It's a stupid thing to say whatever the case, it's irrelevant. You can look at individual policies and see their effects. Go to war? It leads to deaths (shocker). Cut funding at hospitals? It leads to deaths (shocker). Death tolls aren't some score to tot up.

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No, you're absolutely correct. It's not right to compare such things. Having known people who went to Iraq and Afghanistan and came back... not the same.. mean that I get quite angry when the subject of Blair and the consequences of his actions in that scandal are brought up. Especially when the ramifications of those actions are understated.

And I believe the effects of Cameron's austerity policy have been understated too. I don't think there's any way to measure the damage caused there.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Blair is a war criminal and deserves to go prison for his actions but bringing it up against this study comes across like 'whataboutism'. Not saying that was your intention but it's how it reads.

 

[Dan]

I wasn't the person to make that comparison, but I bit on the mention of Blair from a response. I should have held back, so I apologise for that.

 

[PJV3]

I think it is OK to compare fatalities, it is useful sometimes even if the causes are different.

 

[Pixieking]

I think it is OK to compare fatalities, it is useful sometimes even if the causes are different.

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I think such a thing has its uses, but only in an historical sense. That is, comparing the fatalities of the Vietnam War and, say, the Battle of Gettysburg can be enlightening, if only to get an idea of how little we've progressed (excepting technologically). But I think in a contemporary sense, it does nothing to help anyone, and doesn't change policy - the number of deaths from austerity still rises, just as the number of those killed in Iraq and Afghanistan as a consequence of the war still rises.

Edit:

No, you're absolutely correct. It's not right to compare such things. Having known people who went to Iraq and Afghanistan and came back... not the same.. mean that I get quite angry when the subject of Blair and the consequences of his actions in that scandal are brought up. Especially when the ramifications of those actions are understated.

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Thinking on this, I suppose I'm much the same, just from the austerity point-of-view, so I apologise if I was a little... harsh? I've felt first-hand the awful effects of austerity, in many different ways, though I'm lucky enough to not have had to rely on foodbanks, so when such things are minimised in one way or another, I do push-back.

Peace, yo.

 

[empty feat]

Ah, point. I'm so used to the mindset that no right-thinking person could defend austerity that I only saw one side of it.

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I spend too much time engaging right leaning people (economically and socially), so my methods are a little heavy handed sometimes, I admit.

I shouldn't assume most people are bereft of empathy.

 

[Dan]

Thinking on this, I suppose I'm much the same, just from the austerity point-of-view, so I apologise if I was a little... harsh? I've felt first-hand the awful effects of austerity, in many different ways, though I'm lucky enough to not have had to rely on foodbanks, so when such things are minimised in one way or another, I do push-back.

Peace, yo.

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No worries, and peace indeed :) Your post had me thinking quite a bit about the austerity side, and had me looking at articles I somehow missed for a while, so I do appreciate you coming from that angle, thanks.

 

[FSP]

I don't understand why Hammond is seen as so low. He's pretty much the only person in the cabinet with a remotely level head at the moment. I can only assume it's purely because he's Chancellor, which pretty much equals automatic hate.

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Brexiteers HATE him.

Opinion scores are irrelevant right now as they're badly warped by Brexit/Remain sentiment, like everything.