• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
Crossposted from elsewhere (on a related note, come join us in the RPG Era Community OT or in the Discord
Hidden content
You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.
):

Well Underworld: Ascendant was a complete bust so I've been drowning my sorrows in retrospective videos about Ultima Underworld. As I was doing so, it occurred to me that many on this forum might not even be aware of what Ultima Underworld is or why the game is such a big deal, so I decided to do a little writeup about it. Anyone else who has good memories of the game or anything else to add about it, feel free to contribute as well.

UWStygian1b.jpg


There are a handful of games that you could make a case for being the most important game ever made, and in my view four of them are in the Ultima series alone (for the record those are Ultima IV, Ultima VII, Ultima Underworld, and Ultima Online). Of those four, Underworld is the game that has perhaps had the most pervasive influence. Put succinctly, Underworld is the first game to really tackle the concept of representing a gaming experience as if it were actually happening and not merely through the abstraction of "being a video game."

What do I mean by this. Well, consider the following:

You are deeply embroiled in a Dungeons & Dragons campaign with your beloved colleagues at the local game store. As your party of adventurers carefully descends deeper and deeper into some godforsaken, ruined dungeon, you eventually come across a locked wooden door.

A very simple setup. Now think about this scenario, except this time it happens in a video game. Let's say, Dark Souls. You come across a locked wooden door in a dungeon. You press a button to "interact" with it. Text flashes on the screen informing you that the door is locked. Naturally, you should go find the key.

But wait...why? Why do I need a key to unlock this door? I have fire - why don't I just burn the door down? I have an axe - why not just chop it apart? Why not use this transformation spell to turn the door into a chair or something?

That, in a nutshell, is the difference between tabletop role-playing and video game role-playing. Because a video game is a closed system, specific problems often have specific solutions. Games aren't necessarily designed to account for all the things that should make sense, but rather - either through a lack of budget, a lack of technology, or just a lack of caring - games often only account for the things that make sense in the context of the game itself. In other words, to continue from the scenario above, tabletop gaming is a simulation of coming across a locked wooden door in a dungeon; it is a fully-fleshed out scenario in which you think not about what you need to do in this campaign, but rather what you would actually do. You might go find a key, sure, but maybe you kick the door down instead, or burn it down, or transform that rat scurrying on the ground into the key. Many video games are, in contrast, an approximation of coming across that same door; they convey the general effect of the obstacle in front of you (i.e. this locked door stops you from progressing), but provide one tailor-made solution to control the flow of progress (i.e. go find the key to this door).

The reason why Ultima Underworld is so significant (and more importantly, why it's just very fun to play) is because it is the first RPG to abandon the "gamification" of video game RPGs and instead develop a set of systems that allows it to simulate and not approximate. The entire game is built upon one simple, seemingly obvious, but really quite brilliant premise: "What would it actually be like to be in this dungeon?" Every single thing in Underworld ties back into that central question, that central ambition of creating a world that is simultaneously fantastical but also obsessively predicated on the same physics, logic, and common sense that reality is. In Underworld, you can just bust the wooden door down with an axe, screw going to find the key. If you're in a brawl at the tavern, you can leap up onto the table to get a more advantageous position in the fight. You will be in a really bad position if you go wandering around too far and forget that you need to eat food - after all, you can't just "forget to eat" in real life. It all makes sense. Funnily enough, these incredibly detailed and complex subsystems create an experience that is extremely intuitive, because you don't have to learn what Underworld specifically wants from you. It creates no layers of abstraction from reality, like guessing what your professor wants you to say on an exam. It just wants you to do what you would really do were you shuffling around the Stygian Abyss. The game doesn't have its own logic; its logic is that of the real world. If it would work in reality, it'll probably work here - and vice versa.

I think it's literally impossible to overstate how important this shift in design philosophy was, and we see the DNA of Underworld in so many games nowadays. In direct successors like System Shock, Dishonored, Deus Ex, yes, but also in later WRPGs like The Elder Scrolls, in open-world games like Breath of the Wild, in survival games like Rust and Subnautica...hell, the current "Big Thing" is Red Dead Redemption II, which likewise owes an enormous debt to Underworld's pioneering work in systems-driven realism. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, it is to verisimilitude in video games what Ulysses was to literature in the early 20th-century; a nuclear blast that tore down artificial genre conventions and returned to the root of "holding a mirror up to nature," rather than going down an increasingly deep rabbit hole of abstraction from reality.

And ultimately, setting Underworld's conceptual brilliance and historical importance aside, the game's rock-solid design just makes it a joy to play. There is a reason why it birthed the genre that came to be known as the "immersive" sim; because the game is immersive as hell, the meticulous craftsmanship that went into the world of the Stygian Abyss creates an atmosphere of methodical exploration and constant wonder that can still go toe-to-toe with modern games, even after 26 years of technological innovation. There is a stunning variety of quests and NPC interactions, there are entire cultures that inhabit different areas of the Abyss and have unique relationships with one another, there is nefarious puzzle-solving, there is tense combat, interesting themes, virtually infinite replayability. It is a shining example of a game so far ahead of its time that it is effectively timeless.

As a player I'm usually drawn more to concepts and ideas than I am to specific experiences, so I didn't include much of my own Underworld playthroughs here (and partially I don't want to spoil too much of it, though that's a bit hard to do since every playthrough can be different in dramatic ways). It is a game that everyone should play though, because it is both massively entertaining and massively significant, like all true classics are.

***Ultima Underworld is available on the Origin Store for a mere $5. That's like a cup of coffee for one of the greatest games of all time, no reason not to bite!***

 
Last edited:

Nicko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
482
Wait, Underworld: Ascendent was a bust?? How so?

Yes I totally agree that the UU games are incredible and need to be played or remastered again. Definitely a major player that defined my gaming childhood.
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
The most amazing thing to me is that Ultima Underworld came out even before Doom, and accomplished everything it did. It's such an incredible game.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
Wait, Underworld: Ascendent was a bust?? How so?

Yes I totally agree that the UU games are incredible and need to be played or remastered again. Definitely a major player that defined my gaming childhood.
It's just a poor game and more importantly, a very poor "spiritual successor" to UU. Where UU's strengths lie in the world exploration, the interactions with various inhabitants of the Abyss, the feel of surviving in a vast, open world, Ascendant is more of a linear mission-based experience. I've heard it opens up later in the game but apparently that's when any semblance of polish falls off a cliff and it just becomes an unfinished mess.

Ascendant is so different from UU, that I partially made this writeup just to explain why UU is good and why it's nothing like Ascendant, in case any younger readers just assume UU is Ascendant but older.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,814
England
Great writeup, and now I really want to check it out. Available on GoG?

Also, I really think this genre would be a beautiful fit on mobile. It's the kind of game I wish TES Blades would end up being, but I'm sure it'll be an overly simplified, horrendously linear and bland experience, because there's still a feeling that mobile games have to assume their audience are idiots to be successful =(
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,403
The Ultima games (well, I think VII is cited more than Underworld) also had a direct influence on Larian Studios and their Divinity series. Even in their first game, they wanted to do similarly grand, simulation-style mechanics.


Now, if I wanted to play Ultima Underworld, what's the best way to do so? Any mods or anything that should be used, etc? And most critically, is UU for sale somewhere other than GOG? Ultima is a series that I've always heard about, but never played; well, aside from Ultima Online (and a really good let's play of U9, lol) which really isn't the same thing.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Wonderful thread. It has a reason I keep mentioning this game. It is really, really good, and with the mods available is even playable pretty well nowadays.

I still feel a lot of RPGs of the modern era can't even hold a candle to this one. Games like the Witcher or Skyrim have the looks, certainly, but they didn't improve the systems. In many ways, they feel like a step down from what UU had, so many years ago.
 

Sinatar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,684
Yup I've said it many times, Underworld is one of the most important games of all time. In addition to all the gameplay innovations it was also the biggest technological leap forward any single game has made in history. This game predates Wolfenstein 3d, yet has full 3d environments, a physics simulation, dynamic lighting, the ability to jump swim and fly, a fully alive world ecology with dozens of independent entities all doing their own thing, and a million other little insane things. In 1992.
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
The Ultima games (well, I think VII is cited more than Underworld) also had a direct influence on Larian Studios and their Divinity series. Even in their first game, they wanted to do similarly grand, simulation-style mechanics.


Now, if I wanted to play Ultima Underworld, what's the best way to do so? Any mods or anything that should be used, etc? And most critically, is UU for sale somewhere other than GOG? Ultima is a series that I've always heard about, but never played; well, aside from Ultima Online (and a really good let's play of U9, lol) which really isn't the same thing.
You can buy it on Origin

https://www.origin.com/usa/en-us/store/ultima/ultima-underworld-the-stygian-abyss
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009

Yes, and as a matter of fact it's 75% off right now, a mere $1.49.

I cannot outright recommend purchasing this game from GOG because of recent issues that are well-documented elsewhere. However the game is indeed $1.49 at the moment and the GOG version runs well, it is up to each person what to do with that information.


EDIT: Just saw Aeana's post, I would recommend buying it through Origin absolutely. Didn't know it was available there, in fact I'll link to that in OP.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
There are a handful of games that you could make a case for being the most important game ever made, and in my view four of them are in the Ultima series alone (for the record those are Ultima IV, Ultima VII, Ultima Underworld, and Ultima Online)
Usually when a poster makes a statement like this, it's an exaggeration/hyperbole with personal bias.

But in this case, I kind of agree in a non-biased way. Each of those four games really was the first of its kind (or certainly the first to be really popular).

UU was my least favorite of the four though, haha

The world and exploration was amazing and well ahead of its time. But I did not actually like the feel of the gameplay/combat/user interface
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,733
Not for nothing, but the roguelikes were doing "if you can think it, you can do it" a lot earlier and a lot better than UU did.

Anyway, great thread. I have never really been a fan of the game myself - indeed, I didn't like either system shock either - but I recognize its importance.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Not for nothing, but the roguelikes were doing "if you can think it, you can do it" a lot earlier and a lot better than UU did
which specific games are you referring to? and do they graphically look like UU or comparable?

a big part of video games is graphics/presentation, and as far as I know there was no roguelike with a full 3D world/view like UU
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
Not for nothing, but the roguelikes were doing "if you can think it, you can do it" a lot earlier and a lot better than UU did.

Anyway, great thread. I have never really been a fan of the game myself - indeed, I didn't like either system shock either - but I recognize its importance.
While this is true to an extent, I think it's important to note that UU was the first to integrate this complex systems-driven design into a 3D space that also simulated reality and wasn't a very loose approximation of visual concepts through ASCII art or other various lo-fi means.

And this overall led to UU's innovations in real-time physics which I don't think had an equivalent rogue-like precedent and which were indeed highly influential on a multitude of later games.

But yea the early rogue-likes are cool. I've been meaning to play more of them myself.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,535
Thanks for the write-up. I must admit that my own experience with this game was way too short even back in the day. Perhaps because I didn't have a walkthrough in order to help solve some early puzzles or other challenges. Thus, at least until relatively recently, I hadn't put any of these things into a proper historical perspective.

The game did have a reasonably interesting premise (and a big manual that I must have read several times), but I didn't get far. Hopefully I will be able to correct that one day.

Shame about Underworld Ascendant though. That sounds really disappointing.
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
I know the controls and UI would not feel the smoothest things these days, but as kid I remember Ultima Underworld and its sequel literally taking weeks of my life and making me feel completely immersed in a fictional reality to a degree that very few games managed to approach in the subsequent years.

Which sadly reminds me the massive disappointment with the recently released Underworld Ascendant.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Not for nothing, but the roguelikes were doing "if you can think it, you can do it" a lot earlier and a lot better than UU did.

Not quite, I'd say. Rogue had a LOT of interactions, especially if you get into magic stuff (some of which always seemed like an attempt to emulate highlevel D&D magic...and then there's teleporting to negative floors, then plummet to your doom since you teleported into the sky :D)

But it's not quite on the same level - it's real time, added physics, and physical interactions on a scale that really wasn't seen before. It's a different kind of complexity, I'd say. It also added interaction complexity, with how you can interact with NPCs and how these work. You still see DNA of that in various games with faction systems.

I'd put games like rogues more into the category of dungeon crawler RPGs, a lot of which learned from quirks that rogue-ish games had. The teleporting for example is stuff you can do in the Might&Magic series, in a very similar way, and Wizardry also had that.

I know the controls and UI would not feel the smoothest things these days, but as kid I remember Ultima Underwolrd and its sequel literally taking weeks of my life and making me feel completely immersed in a fictional reality to a degree that very few games managed to approach in the subsequent years.

Same. I also had to learn a LOT of English to even understand it - regular school English from German schools wasn't nearly enough for my 12-year old self. ^^
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
To his defense I always loved taking my sweet time with RPGs and every time I read people writing "It took me this much to complete it", it's always way lower than what it took me.
To my defense, on the other hand, I always go for completing as much as possible and I rarely miss anything or leave quests incomplete or puzzles unsolved.

So let's say the truth is probably in the middle.

Ultima Underworld is not an 80 hour game. It's 8 floors, not 80.
I probably spent more than 20 in the castle's sewers in UUII alone.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
In fairness the length of UU can really depend on how much you explore and your general aptitude for a game structured in this way, but yea if you are an adult I can't see this taking 50-80 hours, as a child sure (I spent probably 100 hours in World of Xeen as a child for instance).

HowLongToBeat corroborates the 20-30 hour baseline above. If you thoroughly explore and take your time then I would bump it up to 35-45 maybe.
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,563
Thanks for the replies.

Anyways your write up did a good job of getting me interested about it.
 

PatientVirtue

Member
Nov 19, 2017
10
Great write-up OP. I immediately started replaying UU after my brief time with Ascendant. I had to do something to get the foul taste out of my mouth left by that dumpster fire of a game. I'm still sad Ascendant went so horribly wrong. A true spiritual successor would have been welcome.

For anyone looking to play UU, I highly recommend using Munt in conjunction with DOSBox to emulate the Roland MT-32 for music in the game.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
In fairness the length of UU can really depend on how much you explore and your general aptitude for a game structured in this way, but yea if you are an adult I can't see this taking 50-80 hours, as a child sure (I spent probably 100 hours in World of Xeen as a child for instance)

OH SHIT

I didn't know anyone else on ERA had even heard of World of Xeen, much less played it. That's one of my favorite RPGs of all time, definitely in my top 15 or 20. And I've played a shit ton of RPGs since 1985

World of Xeen was awesome

60 hours when we played it as kids, 20 hours today, probably.

I love your avatar, definitely one of the best SP FPSes of all time! Is it coming back and getting remastered?
 

Deleted member 17210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,569
I have played the Xeen games. I didn't think they were that obscure but I guess anything on PC pre-Quake (that isn't Doom) is being forgotten.
 

Schlomo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
UU2 was definitely a monumental game for me when I played it sometime in the late 90ies. I was used to console limitations, so the simple fact how it could have such a gigantic persistent world where every item you placed in some corner of some room actually stayed there, not only after leaving the room but also when loading your savegame was absolutely baffling for me.

I'm sure it must have taken me a hundred hours to beat it, as it was the first game of this kind that I played, and there was no internet yet where you could seek aid if you were stuck.

Sadly I never played UU1, because I couldn't get it to work with sound even after extensive fiddling with autoexec.bat etc., which was necessary back then to get any game to run.
 

Rytheran

Member
Oct 27, 2017
468
Just outside Holtburg
I played UU for the first time last year and I found that the controls stood up surprisingly well, mostly thanks to context sensitive mouse controls. I didn't finish it, but I thought what I played of it was great.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
I never saw anyone on GAF/ERA talk about the Xeen games

Probably difficult to - people don't seem to like gridbased games ( :( ), and where would one even start?
These things (and the gridpaper dungeon mapping I did for em) probably shaped my early gaming taste a lot, and the novelty of *combining two games for even more game* was just superbly cool.

Definitely a favorite, for all the odd things it did. Mountain climbing and similar skills just to *explore* was actually kinda cool, or the way the magic mirrors worked, letting you teleport to places just by you finding its name somewhere. Really neat.
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
The most amazing thing to me is that Ultima Underworld came out even before Doom, and accomplished everything it did. It's such an incredible game.

Carmack was directly influenced by the Underworld engine. It was something of a revelation to have fully texture mapped geometry. He wouldn't put it that way because Carmack is an egomaniac, but he knew what Underworld did was beyond what he was doing with the Wolf engine. Underworld directly spurred him to develop the Doom engine and then beyond that Quake.

The lead designers of Elder Scrolls Arena also cited Underworld as a direct influence, though that article has since been scrubbed from the internet.

The historical importance of Ultima Underworld really can't be downplayed. It was unlike anything before. It's the progenitor of the first person RPG as we know it today. It's also still a wonderful game, despite having an archaic interface. The level design is incredible to the point of putting games like Skyrim to shame, even though the graphics are crude. The game design is still wonderfully organic, evocative, the dialogue well written, and the RPG mechanics satisfying.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
Don't worry guys there are dozens of us in World of Xeen Era, I know at least a few in RPG Era specifically.

...well ok maybe there are just a single dozen but it's ok. We must persevere!

ls4pf.jpg
 

fokkusu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
204
Didn't get the full picture why the Origin version is better than GOG. Can someone explain?
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,144
been playing it off and on over the last 5 years (or whenever it first popped up on GOG). that interface always kills it for me tbh but now Ascendant ended up being... whatever it ended up being... guess i'll have to give it a proper playthrough some day