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Deleted member 5535

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In February of this year, a protocol was published by the UN on a new guideline to implement the so-called "Optional Protocol on the Sale of Children, Prostitution and Child Pornography to a Convention on the Rights of the Child."On the ACDH website, there are letters from all interviewers available for public viewing. Specifically, the United States was the only state that explicitly defended the anime in writing against the UN proposal, which clarified that such works were protected by the First Amendment. The US letter to the UN, dated May 6, 2019, coincides with UN proposals to protect children, but when it comes to paragraph 62 on the prohibition of representations of "non-existent children," they wrote;
"In the United States, federal law states that it is illegal to create, own, or distribute a visual representation of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting depicting a minor involved in sexually explicit conduct that is obscene. However, visual representations (CGI, anime, etc.) where there is no "real" child are typically protected by the First Amendment (unless visual representations are obscene) and by US obligations under the ICCPR. We urge you to edit the paragraph as follows: "... urges States parties to prohibit by law, in accordance with their national legal systems, child sexual abuse material in any form .... including when this material represents realistic depictions of non-existent children. "
The United States explicitly defended "the animes", going against the UN proposal.

Japan's response to the UN was more academic. On page 2, paragraph 14, they explain ...
"14. Japan believes that the restriction on freedom of expression should be kept to a minimum and that a highly careful consideration needs to be given to the scope of child pornography. Considering that pornography is traditionally called visually recognizable objects, whether through audio representations or written materials, it must be carefully considered. Japan therefore proposes to exclude "audio representations" and "written or printed materials" from the third sentence of paragraph 61. "Furthermore, for the reasons explained above, whether criminal penalties should be imposed, even if the case involves pornography of a non-existent child, it needs to be carefully considered. Japan proposes to add "to the extent that it represents an existing child" at the end of paragraph 61. [...] "

Austria's response, which you can read here, was far less indirect with your criticisms. They simply pointed out that fictional drawings and representations were not real children and therefore were not child pornography. It is a short answer that mainly points out the shortcomings of the OPSC proposal project, but near the end of the first page they staunchly state;
"According to the Committee's proposal, drawings and cartoons may be considered as child pornography within the meaning of Article 2 letter c of the OPSC. In this context, we would like to point out that the definition of child pornography in the latest EU Directive 2011/93 / EU 1. representations of a real child (Article 2 letter c (i) and (ii) 1. representations of any person who appears to be a child (Article 2 letter c (iii) 2. realistic images of a child (Article 2 letter c (iv). "As far as drawings and cartoons do not contain realistic images, we do not see the need to treat them as child pornography."
 

TheZynster

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Oct 26, 2017
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Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 17, 2018
44,118
I mean, I'm assuming it's in the interest of the Japanese government to preserve printed lolicon for business purposes. You can literally walk into a 7/11 in Tokyo and see it on the shelves. I speak from personal experience on that one.

Not sure why America and Austria are caping for it though.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,208
Canada
man im worried this topic is gonna get weird really fast.

Blah blah Rurouni Kenshin author blah blah Japan dun give a fuck.

While I'm happy that the making of this sorta content doesn't harm any real children (a part of this discussion that'll surely get brought up a lot), it's dubious as fuck to keep it around and be "okay" with circulating it. Gross.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,234
I mean, I'm assuming it's in the interest of the Japanese government to preserve printed lolicon for business purposes. You can literally walk into a 7/11 in Tokyo and see it on the shelves. I speak from personal experience on that one.

Not sure why America and Austria are caping for it though.

Err, didn't 7/11 blackball Hentai (and by extensive, that stuff) from their shelves a few months ago?

Other Convenience chains as well, the majority of them in general IIRC
 

Mekanos

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Oct 17, 2018
44,118
Err, didn't 7/11 blackball Hentai (and by extensive, that stuff) from their shelves a few months ago?

Other Convenience chains as well, the majority of them in general IIRC

I can't say, I was in Tokyo in 2016. I also saw it in a generic manga store, but either way, I assume people are still making money off of it.
 
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Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
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With Japan at least I'm guessing it's because money.

There's also the fact that left and right wing in Japan have a similar thinking about it not being an issue due to being fictional. Which is why when it happened in the last time in 2015 (?) a leftist defended such ban not happening in a response.

I mean, I'm assuming it's in the interest of the Japanese government to preserve printed lolicon for business purposes. You can literally walk into a 7/11 in Tokyo and see it on the shelves. I speak from personal experience on that one.

Not sure why America and Austria are caping for it though.

The proposal isn't just loli/shota but minors in general so teenagers as well like with girls with 13-17. Minors in general.
 

Red Arremer

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Oct 26, 2017
12,259
And here I thought the embarrassments of the country I live in on the international stage would end after the reigning government imploded.
 

Sean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Longview
This "It's a fake child, not a real child, so it's okay" shit is disgusting nonsense. Child Porn is Child Porn, period. Fuck anyone who defends it.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
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Oct 25, 2017
15,382
Seoul
Sexualized children is bad. Sexualized 1000yr old dragons that look like children are also bad.


Nothing wrong with having normal kids in Anime and Manga though. But I can understand them wanting to ban sexual things in relation to kids
 
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Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
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Err, didn't 7/11 blackball Hentai (and by extensive, that stuff) from their shelves a few months ago?

Other Convenience chains as well, the majority of them in general IIRC

It was only for hentai which got it, not for normal magazines. And the UN proposal is about minors in general, which you still can normally see teenagers being sexualized in manga out there be it on magazine or volumes. Not exactly on the covers in some cases, of course.

Not really a meaningful difference to be honest. Underage sexualized girls should not be sold on the shelves.

I know, just saying that it isn't just loli/shota. Or just hentai, but sexualization as well.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
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The title needs to make it clear that it is referring to sexual content, not just content with minors in any context.
 

Red Arremer

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Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Japan I get, but why the US and Austria?

This statement seems to have been made while Austria still had its right wing government, so I'm absolutely not surprised this was something they disagreed with.
One of the parties in the government coalition is made up of staunch climate change deniers and other conspiracy nuts - jacking off to cartoon porn of underage girls having sex is probably something a lot of them enjoy.

THQ Nordic is Austrian after all.

Are you implying Austrians are all inherently pedophiles?
 

Pororoka

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,210
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It's sad really that there is the need for a project like this to ban this kind of stuff when common sense and laws that are already on place to ban that content should suffice. With that said, fuck pedos and their shitty dances around the law and their "but they aren't real!" excuse.
 

julia crawford

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Oct 27, 2017
35,135
Wonder what this would mean for horror stories that use abuse of children for the purpose of horror.
 

Ms.Galaxy

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Oct 25, 2017
1,653
I'm guessing the US are just automatically against everything coming from the UN.

In this case, no. There have been a couple of Supreme Court cases involving drawn child porn and in some cases it was deemed protected under the 1st Amendment. Agreeing to this UN project would likely violate former rulings.
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,682
My stance is that people are huge fucking creepos for being into that kinda shit, but at the end of the day, I don't think they should be jailed for it since actual children aren't involved. Though, if a law were passed that made it illegal, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

It would be interesting if the law was passed since it would affect way more than people expect. Shit like Evangelion would technically be illegal.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
No, I'm implying they have influence there.

THQ Nordic isn't even in the like top 200 or so biggest Austrian businesses to my knowledge. They most definitely do not have the influence to lobby a government to push against cartoons being included in the UN child pornography clause.
Just cause they have one pedophile shithead marketing agent doesn't mean they'll be spending millions on this, c'mon.
 

TheCthultist

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Oct 27, 2017
8,442
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It would be interesting if the law was passed since it would affect way more than people expect. Shit like Evangelion would technically be illegal.
Depending on how the law is worded, plenty of "classics" could fall on that chopping block. There's a lot of creepy stuff in a lot of well-respected mangas/anime. Plenty of underaged nudity/suggestive situations in Dragonball and the beginnings of DBZ. Stardust Crusaders had a few real blatant naked kid scenes, with one being an orangutan trying to sexually assault an underaged girl. Made in Abyss... exists... and the list just keeps going.
 
Oct 27, 2017
683
I'll just continue to not purchase or view any content like that and not associate with anyone who does. I really wish Japan had that same energy when it comes to protecting religious and racial minorities, women and refugees from other countries but it is what it is.
 

Deleted member 35077

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It would be interesting if the law was passed since it would affect way more than people expect. Shit like Evangelion would technically be illegal.
Yep, people are bringing up loli, but this law would affect any work that has characters under the age of 18, and well we all know how popular High School stories are in any media. Fucking Dragon Ball will get banned.
 
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Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
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My stance is that people are huge fucking creepos for being into that kinda shit, but at the end of the day, I don't think they should be jailed for it since actual children aren't involved. Though, if a law were passed that made it illegal, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

It would be interesting if the law was passed since it would affect way more than people expect. Shit like Evangelion would technically be illegal.

This isn't just loli or hentai tho but minors in sexual situations, not exactly just sex. Many anime/manga you watch or read would be under it. lol Going from Dragon Ball, to Naruto, to Gotoubun, to To love Ru, to Monogatari and so so many series out there, going from the 70s to today.
 

Busaiku

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Oct 25, 2017
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THQ Nordic isn't even in the like top 200 or so biggest Austrian businesses to my knowledge. They most definitely do not have the influence to lobby a government to push against cartoons being included in the UN child pornography clause.
Just cause they have one pedophile shithead marketing agent doesn't mean they'll be spending millions on this, c'mon.
There were multiple people involved, and all of them were higher ups. He wasn't just a marketing agent, but their marketing director. Another was a board member of the company.
They're still a pretty big company, and it would be in their best interests to back the opposition to this.
 

Surface of Me

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Oct 25, 2017
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There were multiple people involved, and all of them were higher ups. He wasn't just a marketing agent, but their marketing director. Another was a board member of the company.
They're still a pretty big company, and it would be in their best interests to back the opposition to this.

I wasnt a fan of the 8chan thing, but you sound like a foil on the head type dude right now. Point me out to the loli games THQ is making?
 

Yukari

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Mar 28, 2018
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This isn't just loli or hentai tho but minors in sexual situations, not exactly just sex. Many anime/manga you watch or read would be under it. lol Going from Dragon Ball, to Naruto, to Gotoubun, to To love Ru, to Monogatari and so so many series out there, going from the 70s to today.

Also Doraemon,Shin-chan and Maybe Sailor Moon too.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

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This isn't just loli or hentai tho but minors in sexual situations, not exactly just sex. Many anime/manga you watch or read would be under it. lol Going from Dragon Ball, to Naruto, to Gotoubun, to To love Ru, to Monogatari and so so many series out there, going from the 70s to today.

I would argue the "sexual jokes" in Naruto and Dragon Ball are entirely different than "wet sticky panties/sexual position jokes" in To Love Ru or "Orgasm Toothbrush" from Monogatari.
 
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Deleted member 5535

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I would argue the "sexual jokes" in Naruto and Dragon Ball are entirely different than "wet sticky panties" in To Love Ru or "Orgasm Toothbrush" from Monogatari.

Dude, Kame literally gropes Bulma when she was a 16 yo, not even counting the fanservice she had at that time many times (even with nipples). It's the same thing. lol

Also Doraemon,Shin-chan and Maybe Sailor Moon too.

A huge amount would be affected, you can be sure of that.
 

Red Arremer

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Oct 26, 2017
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There were multiple people involved, and all of them were higher ups. He wasn't just a marketing agent, but their marketing director. Another was a board member of the company.
They're still a pretty big company, and it would be in their best interests to back the opposition to this.

Even if the entire leadership of the company was made up of pedophiles, I still do not believe that they would lobby in favour of cartoon child porn being legal when there are much more pressing issues for a software company. If THQ Nordic had any sway in this statement, the influence was minuscule at best.

If you want my analysis of this, as someone who actually lives in Austria and understands the political situation here:
The rightwing party was in control of the foreign ministry when this statement was penned. The rightwing party generally has had very strange pet projects that they really tried to shoehorn through their ministries (repeal the incoming smoking ban in restaurants, police horses, increase the speed limit on highways, etc.), and we also know that a good amount of right-leaning people tend to defend pedophilia and/or have taken part in it.
It is far more likely that the rightwing party simply did this out of their own volition than because of some mid-level Austrian company lobbying for it.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

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Dude, Kame literally gropes Bulma when she was a 16 yo, not even counting the fanservice she had at that time many times (even with nipples). It's the same thing. lol

I would still argue that the latter part of the anime you named are on a whole different level of "fanservice" than a "Sexy no Jutsu" or pantyshot or even seeing a nipple/groping. I mean in Monogatari sexual innuendo scenes are normal, you have the toothbrush orgasm scene etc.
In To Love Ru you literally have the girls getting sexually aroused and getting wet and sticky panties to the point you could almost call it a hentai manga together with all the sexual innuendo scenes, falling on the hero in obvious sexual positions, drawing the characters in "totally not sex positions" etc.
 

Busaiku

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Oct 25, 2017
12,407
Even if the entire leadership of the company was made up of pedophiles, I still do not believe that they would lobby in favour of cartoon child porn being legal when there are much more pressing issues for a software company. If THQ Nordic had any sway in this statement, the influence was minuscule at best.

If you want my analysis of this, as someone who actually lives in Austria and understands the political situation here:
The rightwing party was in control of the foreign ministry when this statement was penned. The rightwing party generally has had very strange pet projects that they really tried to shoehorn through their ministries (repeal the incoming smoking ban in restaurants, police horses, increase the speed limit on highways, etc.), and we also know that a good amount of right-leaning people tend to defend pedophilia and/or have taken part in it.
It is far more likely that the rightwing party simply did this out of their own volition than because of some mid-level Austrian company lobbying for it.
Yeah, sorry, in actuality, I thought they were much bigger (relative to your country) than they actually are.
Obviously, I'm very ignorant of Austrian economics/politics.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,050
I would still argue that the latter part of the anime you named are on a whole different level of "fanservice" than a "Sexy no Jutsu" or pantyshot or even seeing a nipple/groping. I mean in Monogatari sexual innuendo scenes are normal, you have the toothbrush orgasm scene etc.
In To Love Ru you literally have the girls getting sexually aroused and getting wet and sticky panties to the point you could almost call it a hentai manga together with all the sexual innuendo scenes, falling on the hero in obvious sexual positions, drawing the characters in "totally not sex positions" etc.

Shit like this is probably why Japan is so hesitant... they'd have to wipe out metric shit-tons of material that has been printed and recorded over decades. I think back in the early 00's they tried to push a law in Japan but the whole manga industry revolted because it was too broadly worded or something.

In any case, I feel like they gotta draw a line somewhere, because this huge grey zone has existed for way too long.

The US response seems to hinge entirely on the definition of the word "obscene".