It's been a few years but I recall his arc being going from a petulant, impatient, battle crazed good to someone willing to sacrifice himself even without his powers. As opposed to whatever the heck that mess you just said was.
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[UNMARKED SPOILERS] Captain Marvel - Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter Deleted member 16365
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I thought Carol had a pretty clear arc. Lost her memory of who she was, discovered who she was and learned what she was capable of when she let herself be herself.
I liked it a lot but c'mon man, not everyone has to. Plus Thor had a decent arc in the first Thor, its just undermined by the terrible romantic subplot
My problem with the story is that she has no flaws or internal conflicts. Sure, she has amnesia but as a person she is pretty much perfect and as soon as she figures out who she is she has no compunctions with laying waste to the last 6 years.
Add to that that she is now clearly bonkers OP and she ends up a fun and charming but ultimately flat super hero character. And honestly, most of what is great about Carol in this movie is what Larson is bringing to the performance.
Can't say I understand any criticism of Larson that some people are voicing, she and the rest of the main cast are elevating the shit out of that script.
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She's impetuous and kind of trolly. She charges in headfirst, which will probably cause problems when she runs into something more hard core than a small special forces team and an orbital bombardment fleet deployed with no expectation of any kind of resistance. She absolutely has internal conflicts which form the bulk of her arc in this movie.
Let's be real, in Thor 1 Thor learns to risk his life for others rather than for his own gratification. "Sacrifice or risk yourself for the greater good/good of others" is basically the bare minimum requirement superheroing.
Yeah, but none of that is in the movie. They show her acting like that but she never really faces consequences from it, she never has a hard decision to make. She's quick to smooth things over.
That's not an internal conflict, btw. We never actually explore why Carol is the way she is. She is trying to figure out who she is but she has no conflict about how to resolve it and she isn't faced with any hard truths about herself. We dont even really know anything about her before the Air Force and all we know from that is that she was always heroic and had some friends she was close to.
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ugh,
and you are supposed to be having an argument in good faith?
she literally screams "i dont even know who i am"
also hard truths? you mean like realizing she has been doing the dirty works for the kree?
I ike my heroes flawed.
Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Thor, etc. are deeply mixed up inside, no head injury required, and that's what's compelling.
Give me raging alcoholic Carol.
I wonder if anybody has tried applying these narrative tests to Tony Stark. I've found his solo films virtually unwatchable, because charming as Robert Downey Junior's personality can make him he is always a billionaire industrialist with no serious internal conflicts.
there is nothing mixed up about tony, or thor in their first installment
Tony Stark is a horrible narcissist and the secret villain of the MCU. His internal conflict is resisting his worst urges.
Thor is incapable of leadership and pragmatism. His answer to everything is to smash it with a hammer.
not in their first installement tho.
you are comparing a newcomer to som characters with 10 years of development
That's because his neurosis is his own worst enemy :-P
Tony Stark in both the comics and the films has always been the story of a man with ptsd trying to take control of his trauma but inevitably creating more trauma when he realizes that control is an illusion
No way, that's totally all there in their first installments. I just watched all these stupid MCU movies last month.
Thor just isn't a good movie so it isn't executed the best. In Iron Man Tony is a super flawed jerkoff in the beginning and still a pretty flawed jerkoff at the end, which is probably the biggest criticism you can throw at the film.
That's true, I tend to forget about the PTSD motivator. But his obsession with control came before the trauma, it stems from him always believing he is the smartest person in the room
I really can't wait for Tony to meet Shuri. He will lack the grace of Banner and Vision.
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My wife and I both agreed that we were happy that Carol did not have to deal with a love interest in this movie.
I had an issue with the MacGuffin of the film. The Skrull are hunting for an FTL drive but we see them in a spaceship that can instantaneously jump to Earth at the start of the film. When Carol tell's Fury what the space aliens are after his first question should have been "but how did they get here then?" There was a throwaway line about needing a really powerful jump drive to get a galaxy away, but then Carol implies her work has taken her across multiple galaxies. This is all compounded by the fact that FTL in the Marvel universe has been consistently shown as laughably effortless.
Also Fury losing his eye to teasing a space cat. That's like Professor Xavier ending up in a wheelchair by slipping down some stairs during a chase scene.
Also Fury losing his eye to teasing a space cat. That's like Professor Xavier ending up in a wheelchair by slipping down some stairs during a chase scene.
I actually love that the answer to something fans have speculated about for years is just a throwaway joke. He just got too close to a kitty.
Ships need to fly to jump points to travel FTL. This new drive would not require the jump points, and be able to go FTL anywhere, anytime, presumably.
The Mar-vell twist and Kree being bad guys was good even though I think we knew from the go Kree are dicks.
Also that Ultimate Cap Marvel suit easter egg.
The eye thing didn't bug me, the Tesseract thing is one weird ass thing though if you follow the timeline.
That said, yeah, I dug it
And I can't wait for Captain Marvel to beat Thanos...only for him to kill her because Russos want one more LOL YOU MARKS.
Also that Ultimate Cap Marvel suit easter egg.
The eye thing didn't bug me, the Tesseract thing is one weird ass thing though if you follow the timeline.
That said, yeah, I dug it
And I can't wait for Captain Marvel to beat Thanos...only for him to kill her because Russos want one more LOL YOU MARKS.
Just got out the movie. Thought it was pretty great. LITTLE MONICA IF YOU DON'T HOLD ON TO THAT JACKET FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY
Watched today and really enjoyed it, might be top 6 marvel film for me
- Avengers Infinity War
- Civil War
- Thor Ragnarok
- Winter Soldier
- Captainn Marvel
- Guardians 2
- Spiderman Homecoming
- Ant Man 2
- Iron Man
- Avengers 1
That's a great list, I'd only swap out GotG Vol. 2 for Black Panther
Thanks, and yeah black panther would be 12th for me just below guardians 1
I love the film, but man the cgi outside of the car chase really dampens the film. Like its super noticeable ya know?
Just came back from seeing it so excuse the rambling. Kind of wish I hadn't gone this week, theatre was full of annoying teenagers cause of March Break.
Anyway, I'm going to start by saying I generally dislike Carol Danvers as a character in the comics. She's extremely dull, her backstory is stupidly convoluted, and she feels entirely manufactured in what Marvel Comics has been doing with her. I did not have any faith in this movie going in...but I really enjoyed what Marvel Studios and Larson did with the character. Her backstory is alot simpler, Larson is charming, and her quest to find her sense of identity was interesting which sort of in a meta way feels like a reference to how Marvel has been treating her in the comics. They really managed to make something good. So hey, maybe Marvel can do miracles.
Anyway, things I liked:
* As far as origin stories go, this was pretty solid. I liked them telling it out of order, with her finding out her origin alongside the audience.
* Carol and Fury's rapport was great.
* The reveal that the Skrulls were innocent was great, and I especially like that the Kree were the villains cause they've always sucked.
* Alot of the fight scenes were kind of by the numbers but I liked the "I'm just a Girl" sequence alot
* The explanation for why Carol has been gone for nearly 3 decades seemed solid too me and pretty noble.
Things I disliked but are mostly nitpicks:
* Coulson really didnt need to be in the movie, seemed pretty tacked on.
* Would have liked to have seen more of Hala, there's barely any cosmic stuff
* The 90s references were pretty eyeroll worthy
* I didn't like the reveal of her powers coming from the Tesseract. I just really dislike tying everything to the Infinity Stones.
* The Avengers name did not need a freaking origin. This is bordering on the sillieness in Solo.
* Also really dislike the cat stuff, especially straight ripping a gag from Guardians of the Galaxy. Wish I hadn't sat through the credits cause man what a letdown that was.
Anyway, overall I enjoyed it. As far as Marvel origin movies go, it's around the middle probably? Definitely better than Ant-Man, Thor, and Doctor Strange. Probably as good as The First Avenger.
I'm wondering how they'll deal with Maria and Monica, and how the latter will get powers.
Anyway, I'm going to start by saying I generally dislike Carol Danvers as a character in the comics. She's extremely dull, her backstory is stupidly convoluted, and she feels entirely manufactured in what Marvel Comics has been doing with her. I did not have any faith in this movie going in...but I really enjoyed what Marvel Studios and Larson did with the character. Her backstory is alot simpler, Larson is charming, and her quest to find her sense of identity was interesting which sort of in a meta way feels like a reference to how Marvel has been treating her in the comics. They really managed to make something good. So hey, maybe Marvel can do miracles.
Anyway, things I liked:
* As far as origin stories go, this was pretty solid. I liked them telling it out of order, with her finding out her origin alongside the audience.
* Carol and Fury's rapport was great.
* The reveal that the Skrulls were innocent was great, and I especially like that the Kree were the villains cause they've always sucked.
* Alot of the fight scenes were kind of by the numbers but I liked the "I'm just a Girl" sequence alot
* The explanation for why Carol has been gone for nearly 3 decades seemed solid too me and pretty noble.
Things I disliked but are mostly nitpicks:
* Coulson really didnt need to be in the movie, seemed pretty tacked on.
* Would have liked to have seen more of Hala, there's barely any cosmic stuff
* The 90s references were pretty eyeroll worthy
* I didn't like the reveal of her powers coming from the Tesseract. I just really dislike tying everything to the Infinity Stones.
* The Avengers name did not need a freaking origin. This is bordering on the sillieness in Solo.
* Also really dislike the cat stuff, especially straight ripping a gag from Guardians of the Galaxy. Wish I hadn't sat through the credits cause man what a letdown that was.
Anyway, overall I enjoyed it. As far as Marvel origin movies go, it's around the middle probably? Definitely better than Ant-Man, Thor, and Doctor Strange. Probably as good as The First Avenger.
I'm wondering how they'll deal with Maria and Monica, and how the latter will get powers.
How do people not like the cat stuff? I really enjoyed the humour in this and usually find Marvel movies jokes to be pretty bland. Young Samuel L. Jackson was also amazing. Was surprised how negative my one friends reaction was though. They really didn't care for Brie Larson and thought her acting was poor.
I bet people who think Brie's acting was poor would consider the same type of person in real life to be boring because they couldn't pick up on the nuances and expressions.
I really like the Skrulls in this, the dialog was at some points Whedonesque but actually funny, they really managed to introduce more cosmic stuff without leaning to hard on that "This shit is so weird, right?" humor that That made Thor 3 and GoTG2 feel like cousins.
And I actually liked Carol, Larson put something in there that was missing from such a boring character.
And I actually liked Carol, Larson put something in there that was missing from such a boring character.
Oh true. I found it odd how either the Mendelsohn Skrull just sounded completely different than he normally would or the human and the Skrull version just happened to have the same voice.
Hoo boy, things are tense in here. Just gonna repeat what I said in the main OT, I thought it was a fine movie and I ended up liking it despite my huge reservations for it (due mainly because of the source material).
I don't know what that has to do with what I said, I'm just going to ignore the extremely shitty implications about me.
I don't think this is true at all. In the first film he struggles with his past as an arms dealer. In the second film he has to reckon with the fact that he's a raging asshole. In the third film he's literally dealing with PTSD.
it was the same actor, probably why they sounded similar, though he apparently used his normal Australian accent in Skrull form.
I watched it last night, and it was good but sadly is not in my top 5 from the MCU, I guess mostly due to the performance of the lead, or maybe it wass the character, idk but yeah the lead was the issue. Fury was great in it tho. It was a fun movie, but I reckon captain Marvel is way too powerful for the MCU or seems to be
CM had an arc so IDK what you're talking about. Not a common arc but one none the less.
Also, MOST ALL MCU first movies for these characters (who will be reused and revisited) have simple characterizations of the main character. I mean I LOVED BP ... but all I really got from the Character of BP was a vague sense of who he is and what his goals are moving forward. Same with Strange and Ant Man and same with Cap 1 and same with Thor. I'd say GoTG was the only time I felt like I got more from an origin movie than that and that's prob because the focus was showing how these people become a family.
I mean, it's easy to forget after so many films of seeing these characters I guess. But I saw nothing out of the usual with how she and her arc were shown.
Its a lot easier to criticize a movie when you lie about it, yes.
Every time I see Carol brought up as a "boring character" I always wonder if anyone actually read anything beyond Civil War II, which is what most people seem to all be basing their knowledge of her on, from the beginning and always. The whole movie it felt like Larson nailed Carol absolutely perfectly. The right mix of cockiness, playfulness and not taking shit from anyone. That is Carol in the smallest of nutshells and why I like her so much.
Right? Her conflict was the plot of most of the movie and you literally see it at times.
She's not boring in CWII. She's just an asshole. She's boring in the KSD run.
sometimes, it's okay to have character like that. what's Captain America flaws in The First Avenger? he starts out already a good man. even Erskine make a point to not ever change.
Viewer sees film in which protagonist's hands literally spout powerful death rays when she gets angry.
"Sorry, I'm just not seeing any conflicts here. She's too bland."
Doesn't bother me that she doesn't have an internal conflict. I kinda forgot that the reason she gets her powers is because she was willing to blow the ship at risk to her own life rather than let the tech fall into the wrong hands. That's not a conflict but it does show her true character. I just wonder if the movie would have benefited from a chronological telling.
You could have told the same story in any order. I don't see that it makes a lot of difference. The theme is deception and learned helplessness, and how this is overcome by clear understanding of one's ability to leave and act independently. I suspect some people may not be picking up on that theme because they're just not familiar with the situation.
It matters because it's important to experience a character's struggles with them, to live in their shoes for a while. It builds empathy. Think of Rey on Jakku in TFA. We see how hard her daily existence is. Her loneliness, the scraps she eats for dinner. The emptiness of her "home." All we get instead for Carol are fragments, glimpses. And her best friend tells us what kinda person she was rather than the movie showing it.
And yet I still don't see why she's boring. I've yet to have anyone say WHY she's boring, just that she supposedly is. What are the expectations for any given person of a character to not be boring?
CWII is another point of view thing, because I didn't see her nearly as badly as anyone else did if only because the choices that have to be made given the information presented are not black and white.
I think maybe some people watched this film with their eyes shut, to say such things.
I am talking specifically about her struggles as a woman on earth which are all shown in flashback and not from the point of view of the character. It's like watching a trailer of someone's life instead of the full movie.