[UNMARKED SPOILERS] Kingdom Hearts III - Spoiler Thread

Nov 1, 2017
8,348
Well, everyone (except Xigbar) was redeemed. Marluxia was, Larxene was, Saix was, every single character got redeemed.
Sora's journey was never about revenge, but about saving people. He succeeded in doing it.
You got a hell of a definition of redemption if you call YX, Vanitas or Larxene redeemed
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
Well, everyone (except Xigbar) was redeemed. Marluxia was, Larxene was, Saix was, every single character got redeemed.
Sora's journey was never about revenge, but about saving people. He succeeded in doing it.
Sure, but they still had to fade out and at least looked defeated in the process. They did bad thing, got bad reward. The text says they'll be better because of it, but I at least had the satisfaction of their defeats in all of it.
He's struggling a lot, though. That whole scene is meant to make him look pitiful and pathetic. Also, it's not like Eraqus is a hero - the two of them are pathetic old failures who acknowledge their faults and move on together.

Remember, Japan doesn't really believe in Hell in the same sense we do. Cosmology-wise, Kingdom Hearts isn't heaven or hell, it's just Where Hearts Go.
Mental anguish doesn't translate when the writing is as haphazard as it in in this series. Hell, he basically had a smirk on his face when he handed the Chiblade over to Sora and that just felt worse.

Cosmology is also something they make up on the fly - remember that this is the same series that has explicitly featured an Underworld and put Final Fantasy characters in it. It's not like the concept is totally foreign to them.
 

Nightengale

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Oct 26, 2017
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I don't think we're supposed to interpret his smirk as him being smug, but rather more of a congratulatory smile. Remembering the good old days of his youth, and having been defeated, he smiled and basically admitted defeat gracefully and congratulates the ones who defeated him.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
I don't think we're supposed to interpret his smirk as him being smug, but rather more of a congratulatory smile. Remembering the good old days of his youth, and having been defeated, he smiled and basically admitted defeat gracefully and congratulates the ones who defeated him.
But we can at least agree that this is not a satisfying ending for literally the worst guy?
 

PlanetSmasher

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Oct 25, 2017
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Mental anguish doesn't translate when the writing is as haphazard as it in in this series. Hell, he basically had a smirk on his face when he handed the Chiblade over to Sora and that just felt worse.

Cosmology is also something they make up on the fly - remember that this is the same series that has explicitly featured an Underworld and put Final Fantasy characters in it. It's not like the concept is totally foreign to them.
I mean, we're asking Japanese people to adhere to a specifically Christian ideal of an afterlife in a mythology they're coming up with. Heaven and Hell are not an omni-concept. Yes, Olympus has an Underworld but that doesn't mean every world functions the same way or that the universe itself functions that way at large.

And like Night said, MX very clearly told Sora "well done" and handed the blade over gracefully. He's just not very good at smiling because he has Villain Face.

Larxene was totally happy. Vanitas was never meant to be, he was simply emotions, YX went back to his time. They were not punished.
Larxene was just happy she didn't get overwritten by a gross, veiny-headed old guy, that doesn't mean she was redeemed. Vanitas was punished by dying, and YX was punished by the fact that he has to live through his whole life and lose the exact same way his future self does.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,348
Larxene was totally happy. Vanitas was never meant to be, he was simply emotions, YX went back to his time. They were not punished.
None of those are redemptions

Their world views and actions did not change, nor did they cheer the heroes on in their dying breaths.

All 3 were literally, "Fuck you, hope you eat shit loser."
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
I mean, we're asking Japanese people to adhere to a specifically Christian ideal of an afterlife in a mythology they're coming up with. Heaven and Hell are not an omni-concept. Yes, Olympus has an Underworld but that doesn't mean every world functions the same way or that the universe itself functions that way at large.

And like Night said, MX very clearly told Sora "well done" and handed the blade over gracefully. He's just not very good at smiling because he has Villain Face.
You're getting a little too hung up on one point, and also forgetting that this is STILL a global franchise that needs to try expressing a concept like the big bad's defeat being the right thing. Instead he got an opportunity to act like the bigger man despite effectively committing genocide on the universe.

My only point in all this is that the framing of his final scene was bad, because the editing and everything going on around it didn't look like Xehanort was bad. He fades into light like the Good Guys do when we've seen much worse deaths on screen already.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,582
I liked how Vanitas was all "I chose the darkness. I like darkness," before he died and Ventus was like "alright you do you man" while Sora was like "WTF NO." lol
 

PlanetSmasher

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You're getting a little too hung up on one point, and also forgetting that this is STILL a global franchise that needs to try expressing a concept like the big bad's defeat.

My only point in all this is that the framing of his final scene was bad, because the editing and everything going on around it didn't look like Xehanort was bad. He fades into light like the Good Guys do when we've seen much worse deaths on screen already.
We also haven't really SEEN people actually die on screen though. Almost every death in the series up to this point is either a Nobody dissipating (because they don't exist) or a Heartless poofing and releasing its heart up to Kingdom Hearts. Or OG Ansem being literally eradicated by a wave of light.

Vanitas dissolved into darkness because that's literally all he's made of. Giving X the same death wouldn't make sense because X is still human.
 
I mean, we're asking Japanese people to adhere to a specifically Christian ideal of an afterlife in a mythology they're coming up with. Heaven and Hell are not an omni-concept. Yes, Olympus has an Underworld but that doesn't mean every world functions the same way or that the universe itself functions that way at large.

And like Night said, MX very clearly told Sora "well done" and handed the blade over gracefully. He's just not very good at smiling because he has Villain Face.



Larxene was just happy she didn't get overwritten by a gross, veiny-headed old guy, that doesn't mean she was redeemed. Vanitas was punished by dying, and YX was punished by the fact that he has to live through his whole life and lose the exact same way his future self does.
How can YX receive this as punishment if he'll remember nothing about it?
 

bunkitz

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Oct 28, 2017
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I even believe that she is the girl mentioned in the game and the third heart inside Sora.
Nah, that was Xion. There was an old heart, Ventus, then Roxas', and another that's been in Sora for around the same time as Roxas'. That's Xion's since she went back to Sora around the time Roxas went back too. Which begs the question... how did the Organization get their hands on Xion's heart? I've seen the wiki's explanation and some other places, but I disagree that Xion's heart only returned when Sora called her out since she was suffering a bit before that and tried to protect Axel.

I do wonder if Strelitzia (if she really is the nameless star) will return to life somehow... It would defeat the purpose of The Final World somewhat if all the named (eventually, for her case) characters we meet their return. I find it hard to imagine for her to not play a significant role going forward, though, so... I guess I should expect it to happen.
I just finished the game, without ever been into KH. I did watch a 3 hour video to give me an idea of what I'm in for, which helped a lot. I think there's few things now I have questions about, but less than I thought there would be.

However, I have a big problem with Kairi. Has she always been this useless? Here I thought the trope has died, but hey, it's 2019 and I'm still seeing this bs being done? It's almost as if they were about to give her some purpose and actual power, just to be kidnapped and killed for the sake of character progression.

Also, are all the KH games this easy? It felt a bit like a faceroll. It got really frustrating at the end with Org XIII - 1min battle, 7min cutscene. I just wanted more of these cutscenes to be in game or some interaction, it just got a bit frustrating. :(
It makes very little sense to me why the game would be so easy, as the main target audience seems to be the hardcore fans of the franchise, so it's not like you're trying to sell it to kids who are into Disney, because let's be real - they'll most likely hate it.
Oh! I was just wondering how newcomers felt about the game since I hadn't seen any yet. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed it and understood it for the most part, it seems? Sadly though, yeah... Kairi. I had such high hopes for the character and was really hoping we'd get to play her and kick Heartless butt with her but Nomura said otherwise. All this buildup since Kingdom Hearts II amounted to mostly nothing in terms of her combat prowess. As much as I love this game, there are quite a bit of disappointing things that happened with the characters with many of them falling short of what I would expect of them. All three Keyblade Masters were defeated fairly throughout the story, for example.

Seriously, it really bugs me that Aqua just took that Firaga at face value like that. She blocks with Barrier, for Pete's sake.

Kingdom Hearts III is the easiest game in the entire series, by far. Which is very disappointing indeed because as you said, fans have been waiting for this conclusion for a very long time now so it would have been great if it was a satisfying challenge as well. I didn't die once (by the time I finished the story, at least) on Proud and I generally suck at Kingdom Hearts combat, so that's saying something.
Larxene was totally happy. Vanitas was never meant to be, he was simply emotions, YX went back to his time. They were not punished.
Larxene was just glad she didn't end up becoming Xehanort's vessel. Vanitas is coalesced darkness from Ven's heart and can't really be redeemed cause there isn't even the tiniest fraction of good in him. Returning to your time or wherever you're from is... just that. That doesn't change anything about a person or make them grow in any way. None of these fall under the definition of redemption.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,770
Costa Rica
None of those are redemptions

Their world views and actions did not change, nor did they cheer the heroes on in their dying breaths.

All 3 were literally, "Fuck you, hope you eat shit loser."
I'd say Larx was kind off redeemed, but still a bitch to Sora. Albeit it felt like she was being a tease to him

YX was a "Eat shit, you just doomed yourself and I'll just go chill on my time" for sure
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
We also haven't really SEEN people actually die on screen though. Almost every death in the series up to this point is either a Nobody dissipating (because they don't exist) or a Heartless poofing and releasing its heart up to Kingdom Hearts.

Vanitas dissolved into darkness because that's literally all he's made of. Giving X the same death wouldn't make sense because X is still human.
Mother Gothel was basically portrayed as a parallel of Xehanort in Corona, a darkness trying to preserve the light by doing the worst thing possible. Even though she doesn't die on screen, she struggles long enough for us to see the demise of a bad guy. Marluxia swoops in at the last moment to give us something to fight, but that's the ending that Xehanort deserved. For a series that leans so much on Disney iconography and themes, up to the point of including those exact scenes in-game, it's fair game to expect more of him.

The nobody thing has also stopped making sense because we've basically retconned the whole "not existing" thing as being Xehanort manipulating them since we know they can keep existing regardless, i.e. another Bad Thing. Nomura flies by the seat of his pants with his world building and changes it on a moment's notice, like before.
 

PlanetSmasher

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Mother Gothel was basically portrayed as a parallel of Xehanort in Corona, a darkness trying to preserve the light by doing the worst thing possible. Even though she doesn't die on screen, she struggles long enough for us to see the demise of a bad guy. Marluxia swoops in at the last moment to give us something to fight, but that's the ending that Xehanort deserved. For a series that leans so much on Disney iconography and themes, up to the point of including those exact scenes in-game, it's fair game to expect more of him.

The nobody thing has also stopped making sense because we've basically retconned the whole "not existing" thing as being Xehanort manipulating them since we know they can keep existing regardless, i.e. another Bad Thing. Nomura flies by the seat of his pants with his world building and changes it on a moment's notice, like before.
I just don't think we needed another "AAAAGHHHHHH DARKNESSSSSSSS" death. Showing this endless manipulator pathetically, impotently trying to insist his schemes will still work even though he has no proof his plan WILL actually generate the world he wants to make as his body expires is way more interesting.

I would've been fine with the two old men just turning into hearts and rising to Kingdom Hearts without the shot of them as kids, but I guess Nomura really wanted to show that duality. Oh well.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
He's dead. Do you want to see him burn in Disney Hell?
I just wanted the scene to properly showcase that he was a bad dude with a deserved end. The whole scene could've played out exactly the same and just had him fading into darkness and I would've been more satisfied.

Like I said, the dialogue supports that he needed to fade away, but the framing of the scene makes it look like he's in control of the whole thing and he made the decision to be a good guy - not that Sora and company actually won in the end.

I'm not arguing that I need to see him suffer, I just want the scene to give more power to Sora and company. They won, but it's Xehanort who seems to get the good end.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,348
I'd say Larx was kind off redeemed, but still a bitch to Sora. Albeit it felt like she was being a tease to him

YX was a "Eat shit, you just doomed yourself and I'll just go chill on my time" for sure
Larxene literally expressed no regrets or improvement in persona. Y'all really trying to stretch redemption.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,773
I just wanted the scene to properly showcase that he was a bad dude with a deserved end. The whole scene could've played out exactly the same and just had him fading into darkness and I would've been more satisfied.

Like I said, the dialogue supports that he needed to fade away, but the framing of the scene makes it look like he's in control of the whole thing and he made the decision to be a good guy - not that Sora and company actually won in the end.
He's an old man entrenched in his beliefs, which at this point everyone else knows are wrong. Eraqus shows up and convinces him to take the L. If he hadn't, Xehanort would have just faded away, howling and bitter, but Eraqus is too pure to let that happen.
 

PlanetSmasher

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He's an old man entrenched in his beliefs, which at this point everyone else knows are wrong. Eraqus shows up and convinces him to take the L. If he hadn't, Xehanort would have just faded away, howling and bitter, but Eraqus is too pure to let that happen.
Pretty much. You would've got the shot of him bursting into a heart and fading away either way, but they needed to fire that Chekhov's Gun of the Eraqus shard in Terra.

If X just faded into darkness like Vanitas the implication would've just been that he's coming back again later.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
He's an old man entrenched in his beliefs, which at this point everyone else knows are wrong. Eraqus shows up and convinces him to take the L. If he hadn't, Xehanort would have just faded away, howling and bitter, but Eraqus is too pure to let that happen.
I mean, I don't really see any reason why he couldn't have faded away, muttering under his breath about the heroes causing their own demise. Eraqus didn't really need to show up either, he had a pretty satisfying ending in BBS before they needlessly set up some sort of return for him in Blank Points.

Like, it's ultimately a minor thing. It just draws my ire that they've got so many animators working with them and so many examples of how to edit a scene like that to show that the heroes were in the right and ultimately deserve to be shown more respect in the framing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,423
Another question for the lore experts.

So why is Ventus in that Union X game? I thought was way in the past? Also the MoM stuff, the Keyblade War, and so on. Wasn't that in the past? The Dandelions? Yet it seems the Foretellers are alive in well, time traveling lol. And obviously the MoM is alive.
 

PlanetSmasher

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I mean, I don't really see any reason why he couldn't have faded away, muttering under his breath about the heroes causing their own demise. Eraqus didn't really need to show up either, he had a pretty satisfying ending in BBS before they needlessly set up some sort of return for him in Blank Points.
They set that up in BBS itself. He fell into Terra as he died the same way Kairi fell into Sora.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,212
Another question for the lore experts.

So why is Ventus in that Union X game? I thought was way in the past? Also the MoM stuff, the Keyblade War, and so on. Wasn't that in the past? The Dandelions? Yet it seems the Foretellers are alive in well, time traveling lol. And obviously the MoM is alive.
It seems like the new Union leaders traveled forward at some point but lost their memories in the process (Ven already was amnesiac when he first comes to Eraqus anyway, so this isn't really a retcon with him). Marluxia also only seems to be getting his memories back at the very end after losing to Sora, and Subject X is almost certainly Skuld.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
They set that up in BBS itself. He fell into Terra as he died the same way Kairi fell into Sora.
He also faded away around him in the process, which we didn't really see from Kairi.. Could've gone either way until Blank Points basically confirmed it.

It also would've given Terra more agency as a result - the whole Guardian struggling scene now has that spectre of "was Terra strong enough to fight back all this time, or was it just Eraqus."
 

PlanetSmasher

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He also faded away around him in the process, which we didn't really see from Kairi.. Could've gone either way until Blank Points basically confirmed it.

It also would've given Terra more agency as a result - the whole Guardian struggling scene now has that spectre of "was Terra strong enough to fight back all this time, or was it just Eraqus."
I think the guardian scene makes it pretty clear it was Terra, since Eraqus only shows up AFTER Terra's reclaimed himself.
 

PlanetSmasher

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But the guardian was also totally under Terranort and Ansem SoD's control, except for the 3 seconds where it wasn't in DDD. Would the guardian have even existed without Eraqus being a sly fox and protecting Terra?
Yeah, almost definitely. The guardian was Terra's Heartless being enslaved by Xehanort. E might have helped a little bit, but it didn't exactly do much considering poor Terra got turned into a goddamn airship by Ansem SoD and didn't manage to reclaim even a sliver of agency until Terranort clashed with the Lingering Will.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,348
She said that being defeated by Sora wasn't so bad, and that she only joined for the ride...With ????? (Marly obvs)
1. Because she didn't want to be a Xehanort vessel. She still treats sora like trash

2. Being along for the ride doesn't change her personality cause marluxia aint as big a dick as Larxene is to EVERYONE.


Lije if Sora meets her somebody, she wouldn't be like "Good to see you." She'd at best tell him to go kick rocks.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
Yeah, almost definitely. The guardian was Terra's Heartless being enslaved by Xehanort. E might have helped a little bit, but it didn't exactly do much considering poor Terra got turned into a goddamn airship by Ansem SoD and didn't manage to reclaim even a sliver of agency until Terranort clashed with the Lingering Will.
But now this goes all the way back to BBS, in Blank Points Xehanort questions why Terra still exists in any form until he recognizes Eraqus. And now that we know that Terra was the Guardian, it just makes us question how much was Terra fighting and how much was Eraqus just outplaying Xehanort.

Like, Luxu is clearly using the same trick, so why doesn't he have a guardian?
 
I've always been interested in KH as a franchise, but never really invested the time, so KH3 coming out seemed like the best time to do just that. I've played some of the games, but never finished them or invested myself in the story before, this time around I decided it's time to go all in.
I am a big FF fan and am into Disney/Pixar films, so it seemed like a natural thing for me to like, but now... I'm not so sure to be honest.

I was really put off by the treatment of female characters in the game and how it's overly complicated. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind a complex story with time travel, doppelgangers, different worlds and all that. I'm all in for that, but the way KH3 dialogue was written felt like they were purposefully trying to make it seem even more complex than it is. A lot of time was spent explaining simple concepts like love and the power of friendship, while things like someone travelling back in time or someone being possessed or whatever was summed up in a single sentence using as many complex words as they could muster in there. It's just trying too hard a little at times. That's how I felt like anyway. There's many ways to convey a complex story in a simple way and none of them have been used here. More time was spent explaining simple things rather than the complex ones.

Also there's a big difference between characters. Some characters have fantastic arcs, stories, personalities and progression, while others are basically Kairi. Also wish we would've seen more of the other characters, I felt like this game was all about Sora, when some of the other characters are really interesting too, I would've liked to see more of them or played more as them. Also less cinematics, more gameplay, but that's really personal.
On the female character front, this game is probably the worst that they've ever been treated.

They were done decently in previous games.
 

PlanetSmasher

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But now this goes all the way back to BBS, in Blank Points Xehanort questions why Terra still exists in any form until he recognizes Eraqus. And now that we know that Terra was the Guardian, it just makes us question how much was Terra fighting and how much was Eraqus just outplaying Xehanort.

Like, Luxu is clearly using the same trick, so why doesn't he have a guardian?
The Guardian didn't come into being specifically until Terranort used the keyblade to unlock his hearts. I imagine Luxu has a different method.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
The Guardian didn't come into being specifically until Terranort used the keyblade to unlock his hearts. I imagine Luxu has a different method.
Which is kind of the point - the worldbuilding remains haphazard and we can't speculate on what should be two characters doing the same thing because we'll just get a new rule on the spot, be it time travel that only helps the bad guy, or we can track anyone who wears an X on their shirt just because.

Which is fine, the nonsense main arc only ever exists as a reason to send the main character into the Disney vignettes and set up a big shonen fight scene at the end. I just wish they'd lean more on the Disney framing and iconography like they do with the heartless fight sequences rather than spend so long focusing on this other stuff.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,212
On the female character front, this game is probably the worst that they've ever been treated.

They were done decently in previous games.
Aqua definitely took a couple of lumps, but overall came out decently despite that one bit with Vanitas, and Xion was handled pretty well and got some cool moments. I would have preferred getting to see Aqua get a definitive win at some point in the final act, though.
 

PlanetSmasher

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Which is kind of the point - the worldbuilding remains haphazard and we can't speculate on what should be two characters doing the same thing because we'll just get a new rule on the spot, be it time travel that only helps the bad guy, or we can track anyone who wears an X on their shirt just because.

Which is fine, the nonsense main arc only ever exists as a reason to send the main character into the Disney vignettes and set up a big shonen fight scene at the end. I just wish they'd lean more on the Disney framing and iconography like they do with the heartless fight sequences rather than spend so long focusing on this other stuff.
I mean, again, the thing is that the Guardian was specifically a result of Xehanort fucking up and using his keyblade on his own heart. If Luxu isn't dumb enough to do that, there's no reason to assume he would get a Guardian too. It wasn't a result of the POSSESSION, it was a result of the heart unlocking specifically.

Luxu fucking sucks and I hate him and everything around him, but this "two characters are doing the same thing so why isn't the result the same" argument doesn't work because they didn't actually do the same thing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
I mean, again, the thing is that the Guardian was specifically a result of Xehanort fucking up and using his keyblade on his own heart. If Luxu isn't dumb enough to do that, there's no reason to assume he would get a Guardian too. It wasn't a result of the POSSESSION, it was a result of the heart unlocking specifically.

Luxu fucking sucks and I hate him and everything around him, but this "two characters are doing the same thing so why isn't the result the same" argument doesn't work because they didn't actually do the same thing.
But there's the question - did Xehanort end up using the Keyblade on his own heart to get rid of Terra because Eraqus made him stronger and harder to overpower? Would he have drowned out Terra without Eraqus's interference? Is this just not an issue for Luxu because of that, or is he just better? Now we have all sorts of questions that wouldn't have come up if Eraqus was just gone.

Like, you can say the Keyblade is the reason why this all happens, but then we have to ask what drove him to that in the first place now that other characters have been pulling this trick for longer.
 

PlanetSmasher

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But there's the question - did Xehanort end up using the Keyblade on his own heart to get rid of Terra because Eraqus made him stronger and harder to overpower? Would he have drowned out Terra without Eraqus's interference? Is this just not an issue for Luxu because of that?

Like, you can say the Keyblade is the reason why this all happens, but then we have to ask what drove him to that in the first place now that other characters have been pulling this trick for longer.
Terra was always stronger than Xehanort thought, and that was kind of the point. If Terra hadn't been such a strong fighter he would've just disappeared. And if X hadn't used the keyblade on himself at that moment Aqua probably would've SAVED him.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,093
Orlando, FL
Terra was always stronger than Xehanort thought, and that was kind of the point. If Terra hadn't been such a strong fighter he would've just disappeared. And if X hadn't used the keyblade on himself at that moment Aqua probably would've SAVED him.
And then the fight that follows includes Terra and Aqua fighting to overpower the guardian, so what was that about?