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Tsunamo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,156


It'd be pretty neat if they did endup using some elements of the beta plot in Kingdom Hearts 4. It was apparently much simpler plot originally (to fall more in line with Disney) before they made the plot a bit more darker/complex but i've always wanted to see what they had planned originally. Those lines about Sora fading away were so interesting in comparison to the final release and its plot.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,659
Costa Rica
so I beat the game...

there've axed the Final Fantasy characters

but The World Ends With You seems to be teased as a world in the next DLC/game? what?


Also I didn't play the mobile game so I barely understand what's happening at the end with Xigbar, but he's one of the cooler organization members so he can stick around

You're late to the TWEWY party

Kingdom-Hearts-3D-Neku.jpg

fe333ad4571c9941aea39f3c40dcb7e053255ca0r1-1024-576v2_hq.jpg


The foreshadowing was always there! LET'S GO.
 

almutama

Member
Oct 27, 2017
303
I loved the scala ad caelum clone sequence. Felt pretty intimidating, especially with the spell over the city.

There's one thing that I didn't understand though. What's up with heartless swarm sequence in the graveyard? Did another timeline pop up after getting their hearts back or something?
 

Deleted member 34949

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 30, 2017
19,101
Personally think that most of the human bosses are disappointing.

Davy Jones and Xehanort are exceptional.

Anti-Aqua is just zodiac Aqua, so if course she's good

Dark Inferno is cool, but lacking for a super boss.

All of the rest of ORG 13 just lack the pizzazz they should have.

The best of them was Larxene and Marluxia due to their desperation attack tag team and The Xehanorts cause of the keyblade spam.


But otherwise they just didn't have the oomph. Like the titans are garbage, but everything you do against them is way cooler than what you do against the ORG members


Those fights needed to be one of two things.

They either needed to be more complex. Like Aqua. She's got like 15 unique attacks to each org members... 2 to 3

Or they needed to have more cool things being done like all the giant bosses.

It's really kind of wild how well executed the Davy Jones boss fight is. It's definitely one of the few examples of the series' balancing sensible boss design and pitch perfect aesthetics.

As far as the Org XIII bosses go, I think the movesets themselves are mostly fine (with Marluxia, Larxene and the Xehanorts being the highlights, as you already noted), but there's a few things working against some of them:

- Xigbar in particular isn't as engaging a boss as he was in the past for one main reason: You don't really have to work to even catch him. In KH2 and even BBS, part of the catch with his boss battles was even getting a hold of him, be it through teleporting constantly like in BBS, or a combination of that and changing the arena terrain like he does in KH2. With the boss arena you're given here, you can camp out most of his attacks (Though his desperation move is really cool), and his teleporting is more or less rendered ineffectual thanks to airstepping, and you get a free combo out of that to boot! I think a somewhat smaller arena and more aggressive AI would do that fight wonders.

- Dark Riku is interesting because aside from the two new moves he has (the floating mines he'll surround himself with and that shadow claw attack he tends to follow that up with), he's more or less a cut down version of KH1 Possessed Riku. Blocking and countering the blade he throws still blows him up as easily as it did in KH1, and his desperation move isn't particularly difficult to get around at all. I think he definitely needs a few new moves (He doesn't even use Dark Aura!) and needs to be far more aggressive.

- Terranort is a joke as is and absolutely needs more attacks. He only has three, and he spends most of the time doing that dumb dashing attack (Dark Haze?) over and over. HIs desperation attack is okay, though.

- I actually don't have to much of an issue with Vanitas as is.

- I don't even know what the finer mechanics of Saix's berserk meter are supposed to entail because Roxas kills this guy on sight.

I think as far as the game overall is concerned, Anti-Aqua is far and away the best humanoid (Or hnestly, probably the best overall) boss in the game, with the triple Xehanorts in a distant second.
 

Delaney

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,223


It'd be pretty neat if they did endup using some elements of the beta plot in Kingdom Hearts 4. It was apparently much simpler plot originally (to fall more in line with Disney) before they made the plot a bit more darker/complex but i've always wanted to see what they had planned originally. Those lines about Sora fading away were so interesting in comparison to the final release and its plot.


I don't know, seems like another case of Versus-itis. Those lines are pretty generic and even if they are not present in the final game, for me it's clear that they match the narrative themes from the final game and the plot it wanted to tell. When Kingdom Hearts 1 was shown in that trailer, the development was also too much advanced to suggest that at that point, the game was going to have another plot (and yes, I know that the initial pitch for the game was simpler, but that's different).

Those three dialogues can easily match three different characters and events from the final game.

"That's right, Sora. Your body, your soul, your whole existence... they're all going to disappear!" Riku, when he takes part into Destiny Island falling into darkness.
"Please, Sora... don't go" Kairi, when all goes down in Destiny Islands, or when Sora gets turned into a heartless in Hollow Bastion
"Come on, guys! We've got to save Sora!" Donald and Goofy, either in Traverse Town when they first meet, or when they separate from Sora in Hollow Bastion.

The beta plot was the same as we got, even if certain events and dialogues changed during development. And that theory of Nomura connecting KH4's plot to that beta trailer it's just laughable when he couldn't even connect narratively the latest KH releases, DDD and 0.2, to KH3 in a coherent way.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
Question: am I mistaken or didn't previous games imply that Xehanort was originally from the Destiny Islands? Yet we have multiple flashbacks of him as a little boy in Scala ad Caelum with Eraqus? Did I make this up in my head?
 

abrack

Unshakable Resolve
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,787
DFW
Question: am I mistaken or didn't previous games imply that Xehanort was originally from the Destiny Islands? Yet we have multiple flashbacks of him as a little boy in Scala ad Caelum with Eraqus? Did I make this up in my head?

Xehanort is definitely from Destiny Islands. Scala ad Caelum must have been after he left the island. He would have been in training to become a keyblade master at that point.

EDIT: I guess the timeline doesn't make sense because chess-playing Xehanort clearly looks younger than Young Xehanort / the MX we've seen standing on Destiny Islands. It's gotta be a mistake or retcon, I don't think anything else makes sense. Unless he was taken to Scala ad Caelum and trained, then dropped back off on Destiny Islands when he's older for... some reason?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 35077

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
3,999
Xehanort is definitely from Destiny Islands. Scala ad Caelum must have been after he left the island. He would have been in training to become a keyblade master at that point.
This is true, but I get why he would be confused as his Destiny Islands model looks older than what he lloks like in Scala ad Caelum. A difference between a young adult and a teenager.
 

Deleted member 34949

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 30, 2017
19,101
Question: am I mistaken or didn't previous games imply that Xehanort was originally from the Destiny Islands? Yet we have multiple flashbacks of him as a little boy in Scala ad Caelum with Eraqus? Did I make this up in my head?
I think the implication is that he was chosen by the keyblade while on Destiny Islands, then traveled to Scala.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,744
NoVA
I think the implication is that he was chosen by the keyblade while on Destiny Islands, then traveled to Scala.
For some reason it feels like Scala YX is somehow younger than the YX we see on Destiny Islands, but considering this is the same series were Terranort both exists and hasn't aged a day and World of Darkness is wibbly wobbly, I probably shouldn't read too much into the appearance.
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,538
So I've been trying to get the nitty gritty semantics of the KH lore in my head down fully, and is it wrong to assume the realm of darkness likely has a Kingdom Hearts of its own since it's counterpart the realm of light does?
 

FPX

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,273
So do we have an an answer about whether or not everyone remembered what happened in the first timeline before Lingering Will saved them? They sure as hell acted like they did, only for Ven and Aqua to act just like they did before in front of Terranort.
 

badcrumble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,732
It's really kind of wild how well executed the Davy Jones boss fight is. It's definitely one of the few examples of the series' balancing sensible boss design and pitch perfect aesthetics.

As far as the Org XIII bosses go, I think the movesets themselves are mostly fine (with Marluxia, Larxene and the Xehanorts being the highlights, as you already noted), but there's a few things working against some of them:

- Xigbar in particular isn't as engaging a boss as he was in the past for one main reason: You don't really have to work to even catch him. In KH2 and even BBS, part of the catch with his boss battles was even getting a hold of him, be it through teleporting constantly like in BBS, or a combination of that and changing the arena terrain like he does in KH2. With the boss arena you're given here, you can camp out most of his attacks (Though his desperation move is really cool), and his teleporting is more or less rendered ineffectual thanks to airstepping, and you get a free combo out of that to boot! I think a somewhat smaller arena and more aggressive AI would do that fight wonders.

- Dark Riku is interesting because aside from the two new moves he has (the floating mines he'll surround himself with and that shadow claw attack he tends to follow that up with), he's more or less a cut down version of KH1 Possessed Riku. Blocking and countering the blade he throws still blows him up as easily as it did in KH1, and his desperation move isn't particularly difficult to get around at all. I think he definitely needs a few new moves (He doesn't even use Dark Aura!) and needs to be far more aggressive.

- Terranort is a joke as is and absolutely needs more attacks. He only has three, and he spends most of the time doing that dumb dashing attack (Dark Haze?) over and over. HIs desperation attack is okay, though.

- I actually don't have to much of an issue with Vanitas as is.

- I don't even know what the finer mechanics of Saix's berserk meter are supposed to entail because Roxas kills this guy on sight.

I think as far as the game overall is concerned, Anti-Aqua is far and away the best humanoid (Or hnestly, probably the best overall) boss in the game, with the triple Xehanorts in a distant second.
Definitely agreed with all of these (and it's bizarre to leave Dark Aura out of it when it's easily Riku's most iconic attack).
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,936
Question: am I mistaken or didn't previous games imply that Xehanort was originally from the Destiny Islands? Yet we have multiple flashbacks of him as a little boy in Scala ad Caelum with Eraqus? Did I make this up in my head?
Head canon it away as YX going back to DI and then remarking how the world is too small in that CS. Like, he was born on DI, left young, returned a bit older and then got visited by his future heart.
 

Hexa

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,738
So I've been trying to get the nitty gritty semantics of the KH lore in my head down fully, and is it wrong to assume the realm of darkness likely has a Kingdom Hearts of its own since it's counterpart the realm of light does?

I don't think that's possible. Nomura is much more a character focused story teller than a plot focused one, so the lore is pretty much whatever he needs at the time to do what he wants to do with the characters.
 

badcrumble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,732
Head canon it away as YX going back to DI and then remarking how the world is too small in that CS. Like, he was born on DI, left young, returned a bit older and then got visited by his future heart.
Dialogue in DDD explains that it's the encounter with Ansem SoD that inscribes on YX's heart the desire to leave the Destiny Islands in the first place.

I honestly think that if you don't want to accept KH being inconsistent and retconning stuff pretty often you're better off headcanoning away the extremely-young-Xehanort chess scene stuff as not being a thing that actually happened (and there's plenty of room to point to it as being very metaphor-first).
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,538
I don't think that's possible. Nomura is much more a character focused story teller than a plot focused one, so the lore is pretty much whatever he needs at the time to do what he wants to do with the characters.
I agree he is characters first, but it's fun to speculate on what future reveals he has planned. Setting up the realm of darkness to just be a mirror realm of light is all there now and doesn't contradict anything we know about the two realms. I thought it was where he was going with the Kingdom Key D stuff in A Fragmentary Passage.
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
it's a little known fact that xehanort invented a really effective anti-aging cream during his early years. unfortunately eraqus stole his supply when he found out about it. this was xehanort's true motivation for his keyblade war schemes.

reconnect. kingdom hearts
 

Deleted member 9971

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,743
Oh I'm aware of all of that, I just think it's wild for the series to abandon FF but seemingly go all in on TWEWY
Nomura had interest in Twewy for a long while so it makes sense, he tried multiple times with Square to get a sequel going.

Guess hell try to get their story progressed in kh instead. Not that i mind it worked well in DDD imo and they are a cool cast of characters.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,427
can anyone point me to a link explaining what the organization's plans for whatever the fuck they were doing on each world were and how they played into the end of forming the x blade and summoning kingdom hearts? i totally forget if their plans on each world were foiled by sora and company or if it was one of those "i wanted you to do that" situations. like, that princess' hearts of light shit doesn't come into play for the events of this game, right? i'm just trying to figure out if any of that shit mattered because i feel like it didn't.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,659
Costa Rica
can anyone point me to a link explaining what the organization's plans for whatever the fuck they were doing on each world were and how they played into the end of forming the x blade and summoning kingdom hearts? i totally forget if their plans on each world were foiled by sora and company or if it was one of those "i wanted you to do that" situations. like, that princess' hearts of light shit doesn't come into play for the events of this game, right? i'm just trying to figure out if any of that shit mattered because i feel like it didn't.

It was either

a) Looking out for new "7 princesses of light" candidates in case Sora and Co. refused to fight, they would just attack those pure lights and get the job done.
b) Investigating artificial bodies containing hearts, to perfect Vexen's replica program for the time traveling Xehanort hearts
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,427
It was either

a) Looking out for new "7 princesses of light" candidates in case Sora and Co. refused to fight, they would just attack those pure lights and get the job done.
b) Investigating artificial bodies containing hearts, to perfect Vexen's replica program for the time traveling Xehanort hearts

thanks. since it seems like there aren't even 7 possible princesses in all the worlds and vexen betrayed the organization then none of what they do ultimately matters?
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,659
Costa Rica
thanks. since it seems like there aren't even 7 possible princesses in all the worlds and vexen betrayed the organization then none of what they do ultimately matters?

They still got their replica bodies and the "We'll attack the princesses!" was more of a way to ensure Sora and Co. would fight

Master Xehanort really wanted a Keyblade War, not a princess genocide. The idea of attacking the princesses was like a last resort kind of thing
 

bunkitz

Brave Little Spark
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
13,524
can anyone point me to a link explaining what the organization's plans for whatever the fuck they were doing on each world were and how they played into the end of forming the x blade and summoning kingdom hearts? i totally forget if their plans on each world were foiled by sora and company or if it was one of those "i wanted you to do that" situations. like, that princess' hearts of light shit doesn't come into play for the events of this game, right? i'm just trying to figure out if any of that shit mattered because i feel like it didn't.
The princesses of light were a back up plan in case the seven guardians of light didn't come together. Young Xehanort and Dark Riku were gathering data on hearts for the replica program, specifically on the hearts of puppets (i.e. toys) and data-based beings, such as Dark Baymax. This is not clearly explained, but it is assumed to have been for the Xion replica they created since what they had on her was Vexen's data and not her real heart, which was sleeping inside Sora, alongside Roxas' and Ventus'.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,427
They still got their replica bodies and the "We'll attack the princesses!" was more of a way to ensure Sora and Co. would fight

Master Xehanort really wanted a Keyblade War, not a princess genocide. The idea of attacking the princesses was like a last resort kind of thing
The princesses of light were a back up plan in case the seven guardians of light didn't come together. Young Xehanort and Dark Riku were gathering data on hearts for the replica program, specifically on the hearts of puppets (i.e. toys) and data-based beings, such as Dark Baymax. This is not clearly explained, but it is assumed to have been for the Xion replica they created since what they had on her was Vexen's data and not her real heart, which was sleeping inside Sora, alongside Roxas' and Ventus'.

ok thanks, that clears it up
 

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,983
Splatlandia
can anyone point me to a link explaining what the organization's plans for whatever the fuck they were doing on each world were and how they played into the end of forming the x blade and summoning kingdom hearts? i totally forget if their plans on each world were foiled by sora and company or if it was one of those "i wanted you to do that" situations. like, that princess' hearts of light shit doesn't come into play for the events of this game, right? i'm just trying to figure out if any of that shit mattered because i feel like it didn't.
They did. They were going to be backups if Sora didn't gather the 7 guardians of Light. YX mentioned often how they were to be kept safe on the shelf just in case.

To recap, to re-create the x blade, you need 7 lights. And 13 darknesses. And that's can be in any form whatsoever.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
How are you supposed to be able to build some of these gummi ships? You can't buy the parts and I've collected everything and tried to farm some of the blue crystals but I don't think I'm getting any of the missing parts to the gummi ships I'd want to try out.
 

Wrestleman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,304
Virginia
How are you supposed to be able to build some of these gummi ships? You can't buy the parts and I've collected everything and tried to farm some of the blue crystals but I don't think I'm getting any of the missing parts to the gummi ships I'd want to try out.

You can use Special Blueprints without building them. You only need to build them if you want to alter them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,179
Oh I'm aware of all of that, I just think it's wild for the series to abandon FF but seemingly go all in on TWEWY

It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Nomura was never going to be free to do much with the FF cast outside of cameos because you can't change them too radically or really break new ground with their stories, but TWEWY is largely a dead series (but one near and dear to Nomura's heart), so he's pretty much free to do whatever he wants with it. And this is the simplest way to get TWEWY 2 made, while adjusting things to fit in with Sora's story.
 

J-Wood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Beat the game today. Absolutely loved it. Still need to get the secret ending though. And I also have some questions.

It felt like Roxas and xion just came back out of nowhere. I thought their hearts were still in Soras and he had to bring them back?

Also Xigbar. So he was a fire teller guy, and not the master of masters right? Is there a video or a good doc explaining exactly what that was about?
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Beat the game today. Absolutely loved it. Still need to get the secret ending though. And I also have some questions.

It felt like Roxas and xion just came back out of nowhere. I thought their hearts were still in Soras and he had to bring them back?

Also Xigbar. So he was a fire teller guy, and not the master of masters right? Is there a video or a good doc explaining exactly what that was about?
Kingdom Hearts 2.8 has a movie called Back Cover on it that's like a basic introductory primer on MoM and the Foretellers, and Luxu appears in it as well.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Beat the game today. Absolutely loved it. Still need to get the secret ending though. And I also have some questions.

It felt like Roxas and xion just came back out of nowhere. I thought their hearts were still in Soras and he had to bring them back?

Also Xigbar. So he was a fire teller guy, and not the master of masters right? Is there a video or a good doc explaining exactly what that was about?
There were Foretellers (+ Luxu, I'm not sure if he's one) in the time of fairy tales before all worlds fell into darkness and all dat shijatzu. They were taught/governed by Master of Masters who gave each Foreteller a book of prophecy and a specific mission before he disappeared somewhat suddenly a little while before the first Keyblade War. The missions were the likes of "you are the leader of the group, you need to gather the best & the brightest Keyblade Wielders and spare them from the Keyblade War" and such. Luxu was given MoM's Keyblade, which has his eye embedded into it (which allows MoM to see into the future for as long as the Keyblade is around), as well as the black box (we still have no idea what is inside it, I assume MoM's body or some thingamajing that allows Luxu & the Foretellers to bring MoM back somehow). Luxu's job was to survive through the first Keyblade War & keep the black box safe and then just hang around for as long as it takes for a destined Keyblade wielder to appear who would wield MoM's keyblade and start the second Keyblade War. That someone was Xehanort, so he was given the Keyblade and he played his part in bringing forth Kingdom Hearts. The appearance of Kingdom Hearts at this time somehow allows/signals Luxu/Xigbar to bring back the Foretellers and Master of Masters. In the epilogue, we see the Foretellers being brought back through some magic mumbojumbo and in the secret ending we see a hooded figure we can only assume is Master of Masters.
 

Wrestleman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,304
Virginia
Beat the game today. Absolutely loved it. Still need to get the secret ending though. And I also have some questions.

It felt like Roxas and xion just came back out of nowhere. I thought their hearts were still in Soras and he had to bring them back?

Also Xigbar. So he was a fire teller guy, and not the master of masters right? Is there a video or a good doc explaining exactly what that was about?

They were. Roxas' heart shoots out of Sora to meet the replica being delivered from above. The replica falls from the sky much the same way Yen Sid arrived. Presumably sent by Ienzo and Ansem the Wise.

Xion is already partially complete in her replica on the Organization's side, from Vexen's data (see the Secret Reports once you unlock them for more on this). Her partially existing is what gives people foggy memories of her like Axel's earlier on in the game. Once Roxas calls out to her from inside Sora, the heart jumps to the replica. That's why she starts screaming and freaking out, and Axel gets the headache and remembers her name.

They wake up from the same process Sora used to wake up Ventus, it's just that once they show it to the player/viewer with Ventus, we don't really need to SEE Sora figuratively shooting his own heart with the keyblade to wake them up, we know that's what's happening. It's all the power of waking.
 

J-Wood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Also, if marluxia and Larxene are in union cross, does that mean their nobodies (from kh2 and kh3 we're always brought from the past?

I'm also a bit confused how defeated xiii members came back in 3. Jiminys journal just says they were defeated but somehow returned.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Also, if marluxia and Larxene are in union cross, does that mean their nobodies (from kh2 and kh3 we're always brought from the past?

I'm also a bit confused how defeated xiii members came back in 3. Jiminys journal just says they were defeated but somehow returned.
After the Org members were defeated in KH2, they were recompleted. Some of them became Nobodies a second time and joined the New Organization.
 

J-Wood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
They were. Roxas' heart shoots out of Sora to meet the replica being delivered from above. The replica falls from the sky much the same way Yen Sid arrived. Presumably sent by Ienzo and Ansem the Wise.

Xion is already partially complete in her replica on the Organization's side, from Vexen's data (see the Secret Reports once you unlock them for more on this). Her partially existing is what gives people foggy memories of her like Axel's earlier on in the game. Once Roxas calls out to her from inside Sora, the heart jumps to the replica. That's why she starts screaming and freaking out, and Axel gets the headache and remembers her name.

They wake up from the same process Sora used to wake up Ventus, it's just that once they show it to the player/viewer with Ventus, we don't really need to SEE Sora figuratively shooting his own heart with the keyblade to wake them up, we know that's what's happening. It's all the power of waking.
Ohhh, this makes sense. I must have looked away when roxass heart shot out of Sora.