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US carriers kill Google's RCS messaging initiative

Lishi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
435
I live in the US, why should I install Whatsapp? It's annoying that I need to install so many apps just to do the same thing which is chat with people. I care about simplicity, it's inefficient and a waste to have 3 apps that do the same thing. This is why I never installed Whatsapp, or Line, or wechat, or FB Messenger.

I want all my messages to be in the same spot. Not 4 different applications. It just so happens, that the Messages app is installed by default on my phone, therefore I know I can receive SMS as well as iMessages. That's all I need.

Google should get their sh** together with RCS and come up with a default app. "install whatsapp" is not a solution.
Well if you don't care to speak to people with android in a modern way sure no need to install.

That is good reason enough.
 

Knight613

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,924
San Francisco
Everyone I know still just uses Hangouts because they can talk on it while their on Gmail at work.

Google is dumb to stop trying to improve that and trying to make it more of a business thing.
 

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,099
So is the RCS Universal profile going to be active on their service or not?

If the carriers want to waste their time on a bloatware messaging app that's fine with me as long as RCS Universal Profile is active on the network.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,256
Some Europeans still think WhatsApp is a thing in the US huh.



Yeah, iMessage sucks compared to WhatsApp... right.

I guess if you're into Facebook and using additional apps.
The point of RCS is to take the advancements found in modern messaging and make it more of an open standard so people's messages aren't siloed in particular apps. Of course all this shows is that whoever owns the default app will be the one who reaps the bounty.
The biggest selling point is that you don't have to download another app and hope your friends have it. It just fucking works. Period.
Because 100% of mobile phones in the US can receive and send SMS by default and way over 90% of those phones are on plans that have free messaging.

Oh, and it even works in places where data service is unavailable.
It's absolutely wild how people justify this. The whole point of smartphones is to be versatile, why does downloading an app bring out a similar reaction as anti gun legislation?

It's just an app, oh my god. Are you rationing the number you install on your phone for some reason?

"it just works" is a terrible justification when iMessage lacks in features, is only on Apple hardware and still requires data anyway for anything beyond just text. Being without data is such an edge case to base your messaging habits around.

As a US iPhone user, I obviously have never tried WhatsApp, Telegram, etc. What features do those apps offer to set them apart from iMessage other than adoption rates in other countries? What is iMessage missing? Genuinely curious.
The big one is obviously these are cross platform, so it doesn't matter what phone or OS you use. Hell, you can also download desktop and tablet clients too. WhatsApp needs your phone paired with your computer but telegram let's you use anything once you've registered an account.

They're much better at handling media attachments (we've had voice notes for years and you can also do voice and video calling), especially in groups. Again it's platform agnostic so someone can send me something on telegram and I can open it on my phone, laptop or tablet regardless of what they are.

If you're privacy conscious, there are different options - telegram let's you do private chats for example where messages autodelete after a period of time and are encrypted.

You can also message people on some apps (like telegram) without them needing your phone number. This is useful if you're in large groups or you'd like to let people you don't know message you.

With telegram you can back up your account and change phone and have all your messages there, even if you switch from android to ios back to android. WhatsApp has a distinction between ios and android but that's to do with how it backs up your data, sadly.

Tl:dr, iMessage has been years behind other messaging apps and the US has pretty much carried it this whole time. If adoption rates weren't so high, apple would've been forced to catch up faster. Its also universal which people love and no one gives a fuck about texts, even if you get a free allocation.

Edit: I forgot that lots of businesses have bots set up for engaging customers too.
 

TechnicPuppet

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,493
These threads are always weird. it's known that people in the US feel forced into getting an iPhone just to get iMessage but it's not seen as a problem. It's a big fucking problem actually. iMessage does not just work for everyone, if the person you are contacting has the audacity to go with a different manufacturer then it doesn't. Can they join group chats? The biggest feature of a modern messaging system?
 

GreenMonkey

Member
Oct 28, 2017
721
Michigan
People who keep trying to make WhatsApp a thing in the U.S.

Look.

I already occasionally get messages on FB. And via text. And email for online orders and stuff.I don't want anything else.

Literally no one I know uses anything but SMS.

I'd be adding an app for what, precisely?
Who am I gonna WhatsApp with?
I could get my wife to use it, I guess, and my kids. That's most of my texting. And then I'd have another app with notifications with some of my texts, and the normal messaging app with my texts with everyone else.

Not to mention there is no big tech company I trust less than FB with my personal text data. I'd much rather have Google or even *shudder* Apple with it.
 

Freestyler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
202
User warned: trolling
WhatsApp is for poor people who can’t afford iPhones. Thankfully 99% of people who are worth messaging here in New Zealand have iPhones, because Lorde knows I won’t waste my time on some dodgy third party app like WhatsApp or Messenger.
 

KimiNewt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
982
Having to download a third party app and used separately from texting is why no one in America uses WhatsApp and why it was dead on arrival.

Google was working on replicating what made iMessage a hit and avoiding what made WhatsApp a failure domestically.

The fact that is was seamless meant Apple users never have to worry about whether the person has an iPhone or the right app.
American exceptionalism. The entire world manages to download Whatsapp/LINE/WeChat. Even my 60+ year old parents and everyone's grandparents. I don't think that's a hurdle.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,357
I will assume that you legitimately did not know that this was a known issue and reply in hood faith.

Carriers have been fucking around and are only moving now under the threat of Google going on without them.








Wow yeah I legitimately didnt know people were having issues with it working at all.
 

Kozmo

Member
Jan 5, 2018
58
This is why Google is trying so hard to push the pixel line. They want some hardware clout to push back against the carriers. Even if the pixels had become "only" half as successful as the Galaxy series, carriers would be forced to start obliging. Alas, Google is losing on the hardware front too.
 

Devil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
616
WhatsApp usage even in Western Europe and Latin America is only in the 50-70% range. There are huge swaths of the globe where it's below 10%.
I have never met anyone in Germany who uses messenger apps but doesn't use WA. Even people who decided to switch to Threema, Telegram or Signal for security reasons eventually reinstall WA because otherwise they'd be cut off from everyone else. I'd like to see the receipts for my country what it exactly means because I could only believe a ""low"" WA usage in Germany by elderly people who don't use anything except maybe SMS. It literally never happened that I met a person who said "Oh I don't use WA" who wasn't an elderly person with no idea how to use smartphones.
 
Nov 16, 2017
869
This is why Google is trying so hard to push the pixel line. They want some hardware clout to push back against the carriers. Even if the pixels had become "only" half as successful as the Galaxy series, carriers would be forced to start obliging. Alas, Google is losing on the hardware front too.
If they want to push the Pixel line they can start by making them actual good phones.
 

JKuch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
504
Whatsapp is so ubiquitous here in Brazil that there's no such thing as owning an smartphone and not having whatsapp installed, you might have facebook messenger, telegram or some other messenger also installed, but everyone has whatsapp.
 

UltimusXI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
266
Man it's weird to see so many people arguing that an app (iMessage) that fragments features based on the device you own or the mobile phone plan you have is superior to a data only app that is multiplatform and works the same for everybody.

I guess it can somewhat work if both SMS and MMS are completely free with all phone plans. So are they in the US? It's hard to imagine that with how you still pay for SMS here (Netherlands) with a lot of subscriptions. Plus I have no idea if MMS is still a thing at all, never received one in the past five years or so. They were damn expensive though. Do they work over wifi in the US or do they cost data always?

I also remember receiving an MMS back then was a chore, not integrated in any (Android) app IIRC or at least not in a nice way.

Then there's the thing about group chats, I'm guessing that only works for iPhone users? They're used a LOT over here.

I mean I understand not wanting to install a Facebook messenger, but there seem to be so many downsides to using iMessage in a multiplatform world. It would feel so selfish to me if owning an iPhone to force other platform users into an inferior experience or making them pay for your convenience.
 
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SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,256
Man it's weird to see so many people arguing that an app (iMessage) that fragments features based on the device you own or the mobile phone plan you have is superior to a data only app that is multiplatform and works the same for everybody.

I guess it can somewhat work if both SMS and MMS are completely free with all phone plans. So are they in the US? It's hard to imagine that with how you still pay for SMS here (Netherlands) with a lot of subscriptions. Plus I have no idea if MMS is still a thing at all, never received one in the past five years or so. They were damn expensive though. Do they work over wifi in the US or do they cost data always?

I also remember receiving an MMS back then was a chore, not integrated in any (Android) app IIRC or at least not in a nice way.

Then there's the thing about group chats, I'm guessing that only works for iPhone users?

I mean I understand not wanting to install a Facebook messenger, but there seem to be so many downsides to using iMessage in a multiplatform world. It would feel so selfish to me if owning an iPhone to force other platform users into an inferior experience.
Loads of people moved to WhatsApp because it was free international messaging. Americans don't want to talk to people outside the country.
 

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
Today I learned that united state americans do not like to install 3rd party apps on their smartphones. How do you guys use netflix, instagram, spotify with your smartphones?
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
Today I learned that united state americans do not like to install 3rd party apps on their smartphones. How do you guys use netflix, instagram, spotify with your smartphones?
It's not that you have to download a 3rd party app; it's the fact that you have to make sure everyone downloads the same app and is on the same page. Things like Netflix and Spotify can be used by the end user and it doesn't matter if other people use Hulu or Google Music.
 

GreenMonkey

Member
Oct 28, 2017
721
Michigan
Today I learned that united state americans do not like to install 3rd party apps on their smartphones. How do you guys use netflix, instagram, spotify with your smartphones?
The point I made earlier is...there is no point to messaging apps....because no one else has them.

I can install Netflix or whatever. That's just for me.

Getting use out of messaging apps requires other people to get onboard also. Or there is no point.
 

faceless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
It's not that you have to download a 3rd party app; it's the fact that you have to make sure everyone downloads the same app and is on the same page. Things like Netflix and Spotify can be used by the end user and it doesn't matter if other people use Hulu or Google Music.
The point I made earlier is...there is no point to messaging apps....because no one else has them.

I can install Netflix or whatever. That's just for me.

Getting use out of messaging apps requires other people to get onboard also. Or there is no point.
Y'all are agreeing with the quoted post.
 

Lishi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
435
The point I made earlier is...there is no point to messaging apps....because no one else has them.

I can install Netflix or whatever. That's just for me.

Getting use out of messaging apps requires other people to get onboard also. Or there is no point.
And here why people say American exceptionalism the rest of world moved on, for a better and inclusive experience while you are stuck in your bubble.
 
Dec 4, 2017
1,126
Today I learned that united state americans do not like to install 3rd party apps on their smartphones. How do you guys use netflix, instagram, spotify with your smartphones?
It's because iPhones have only started to get non-shitass storage sizes (at prices people would actually pay) very recently. Storage was historically relatively limited on iPhones, so the idea of just downloading yet another random messaging app wasn't very popular. Whereas with most Android phones you can just chuck a MicroSD in there (and Google has implemented internal storage extension via microSD since Nougat).
 

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
It's not that you have to download a 3rd party app; it's the fact that you have to make sure everyone downloads the same app and is on the same page. Things like Netflix and Spotify can be used by the end user and it doesn't matter if other people use Hulu or Google Music.
The point I made earlier is...there is no point to messaging apps....because no one else has them.

I can install Netflix or whatever. That's just for me.

Getting use out of messaging apps requires other people to get onboard also. Or there is no point.
I am aware of that problem, but in other parts of the world also only one big messenger is used. I can say that in the german speaking parts of europe whatsapp is the major messenger app that is used by almost everyone. Am I happy with that? Of course not because it is owned by facebook and the web client implementation is shit. The advantage of third party messengers is that these are all data based and I know that imessage works like this between iphones, but the fall back to sms is bullshit. Apple could just release imessage for android but I think they like to use imessage as a selling point for their products. Overall its just typical elitist brand bullshit.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
Y'all are agreeing with the quoted post.
No we're not. People are fine downloading 3rd party apps but the difference is not everyone downloads the same apps. Getting everyone on the same page isn't the same as simply someone downloading an app. It requires everyone to also download the same app. Why would people complain about cross play if it was so simple for everyone just to buy the same platform? It's because everyone does something different.
 

faceless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
It seems crazy to me to believe people still use text messages, but you do you USA.

Whatsapp is so ingrained to the economy that clothing stores create groups where they share their products daily, automated banking services and customer service is already available thru Whatsapp, you can create automated bots... Telegram also provides bots, groups, news feeds and many others.
Yeah.

You can send a message to a local restaurant to order food on WhatsApp and they tell you it's ready for pick up.

Things are different outside the US
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
I am aware of that problem, but in other parts of the world also only one big messenger is used. I can say that in the german speaking parts of europe whatsapp is the major messenger app that is used by almost everyone. Am I happy with that? Of course not because it is owned by facebook and the web client implementation is shit. The advantage of third party messengers is that these are all data based and I know that imessage works like this between iphones, but the fall back to sms is bullshit. Apple could just release imessage for android but I think they like to use imessage as a selling point for their products. Overall its just typical elitist brand bullshit.
This really shouldn't be hard to understand. Things evolved differently because of different circumstances. SMS was super expensive in other regions which forced people to find an alternative. SMS wasn't expensive here and then the iPhone became hugely popular here which meant iMessage quickly because almost 50% of the market out there in the US. The marketshare for phones didn't evolve in the same fashion in a lot of other regions which is why Android is dominant worldwide by a significant margin. I mean a vast majority of the people are on Facebook in the US and only because of how things grew with Facebook as a norm for social media. So obviously it's possible since Facebook is on so many phones here but it all is based on how things evolved and things evolve differently depending on region factors. Whatsapp will never take off here because things evolved differently. Saying people have some aversion to installing a 3rd party app is ignoring all of this and ignoring the fact that it requires getting everyone on the same page for it to even work.
 

faceless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
No we're not. People are fine downloading 3rd party apps but the difference is not everyone downloads the same apps. Getting everyone on the same page isn't the same as simply someone downloading an app. It requires everyone to also download the same app. Why would people complain about cross play if it was so simple for everyone just to buy the same platform? It's because everyone does something different.
WhatsApp IS Crossplay

"Everyone's" somehow managed to "get on the same page" in hundreds of other Countries.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
WhatsApp IS Crossplay

"Everyone's" somehow managed to "get on the same page" in hundreds of other Countries.
Whatsapp isn't crossplay in the sense that everyone needs to be on the same chat platform. SMS and RCS would be because they're app independent and multiple apps can use the same protocol which means everyone can download what they want and it comes preinstalled on the phone out of the box.

Read my post above too. Things evolved differently which is why it's much harder to get everyone on the same page now. Whatsapp is never going to happen in the US because of how things evolved. Anyone who can't grasp that is failing to acknowledge the different circumstances of how things evolved and how hard it would be at this point to get everyone on the same page to get on Whatsapp. It just isn't going to happen.
 

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
The quoted post is a mocking one making fun of people for not wanting to install an app.
Yeah I am mocking the people that used "have to install a 3rd party app on a smartphone" as argument but the same people install youtube, instagram, spotify, reddit and other stuff on their phones with no problem. I also don't buy the "whatsapp is a facebook app" arguments because almost everyone use some form of social media. Instagram is also owned by facebook but apparently people don't have a problem with installing that.
 

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
Whatsapp isn't crossplay in the sense that everyone needs to be on the same chat platform. SMS and RCS would be because they're app independent and multiple apps can use the same protocol which means everyone can download what they want and it comes preinstalled on the phone out of the box.

Read my post above too. Things evolved differently which is why it's much harder to get everyone on the same page now. Whatsapp is never going to happen in the US because of how things evolved. Anyone who can't grasp that is failing to acknowledge the different circumstances of how things evolved and how hard it would be at this point to get everyone on the same page to get on Whatsapp. It just isn't going to happen.
I understand that things evolved differently in different parts of the world but the solution to the problem in USA would then be to buy an iphone if you want to use data for messanging. Which is a dumb solution.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,996
I'm just going to find a cheap Mac and use it to relay iMessage to my Android phone. Most people I text have an iPhone anyway, so might as well look.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
I understand that things evolved differently in different parts of the world but the solution to the problem in USA would then be to buy an iphone if you want to use data for messanging. Which is a dumb solution.
Most plans these days come with unlimited text messages. It's a complete non issue for a vast majority of the people here at this point.
 

Carbon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
943
Most plans these days come with unlimited text messages. It's a complete non issue for a vast majority of the people here at this point.
Unless you want to send rich-text messages, high res images or video. Then you're back to iMessage only or using a 3rd party app. Which is why SMS does need to be supplanted by a new standard in the US. Because Apple's vice-like grip on the American Wireless Market isn't going away ANYTIME soon.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
Unless you want to send rich-text messages, high res images or video. Then you're back to iMessage only or using a 3rd party app. Which is why SMS does need to be supplanted by a new standard in the US. Because Apple's vice-like grip on the American Wireless Market isn't going away ANYTIME soon.
I'm not saying there isn't room to grow and improve things, but that's the reason they're going down the path with RCS which should make it more standardized like SMS was but clearly Whatsapp hasn't suddenly taken off here for people to gain those features, so it's not quite enough to push people towards it.

How do I send pictures over SMS?
With MMS which is included in text messaging plans and just works within any text message app including the ones that come stock on the phone.
 

GreenMonkey

Member
Oct 28, 2017
721
Michigan
Yeah I am mocking the people that used "have to install a 3rd party app on a smartphone" as argument but the same people install youtube, instagram, spotify, reddit and other stuff on their phones with no problem. I also don't buy the "whatsapp is a facebook app" arguments because almost everyone use some form of social media. Instagram is also owned by facebook but apparently people don't have a problem with installing that.
Again, let's say I install WhatsApp. Ignoring the multiple issues with FB itself .

Who do I talk to? I know literally 0 people who use it.

What's the point, then?
 

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
I'm not saying there isn't room to grow and improve things, but that's the reason they're going down the path with RCS which should make it more standardized like SMS was but clearly Whatsapp hasn't suddenly taken off here for people to gain those features, so it's not quite enough to push people towards it.



With MMS which is included in text messaging plans and just works within any text message app including the ones that come stock on the phone.
I didn't know that MMS is also included in this plans. Here in austria they aren't included and are expensive as hell.Now it makes more sense to me why you still use sms and mms.