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US carriers kill Google's RCS messaging initiative

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
But no one is using a chat app. They all use SMS. So should I nag them into installing it also? For what purpose?

It's just A) useless if no one else uses it and B) no real gain vs just texting
If you and your friends only send text and simple stuff that can be handled by MMS than you clearly don't need a messanging app that works with data
 

Carbon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
943
If you and your friends only send text and simple stuff that can be handled by MMS than you clearly don't need a messanging app that works with data
No, they're using iMessage, which does both. It's just seemless so iPhone users don't see the difference. Until a green bubble pops up.
 

hubot

Member
Feb 25, 2019
47
No, they're using iMessage, which does both. It's just seemless so iPhone users don't see the difference. Until a green bubble pops up.
I know how imessage works but GreenMoneky said specifically that they all use SMS.

And again, it is apples fault that there is no imessage for android.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,180
Man it's weird to see so many people arguing that an app (iMessage) that fragments features based on the device you own or the mobile phone plan you have is superior to a data only app that is multiplatform and works the same for everybody.

I guess it can somewhat work if both SMS and MMS are completely free with all phone plans. So are they in the US? It's hard to imagine that with how you still pay for SMS here (Netherlands) with a lot of subscriptions. Plus I have no idea if MMS is still a thing at all, never received one in the past five years or so. They were damn expensive though. Do they work over wifi in the US or do they cost data always?

I also remember receiving an MMS back then was a chore, not integrated in any (Android) app IIRC or at least not in a nice way.

Then there's the thing about group chats, I'm guessing that only works for iPhone users? They're used a LOT over here.

I mean I understand not wanting to install a Facebook messenger, but there seem to be so many downsides to using iMessage in a multiplatform world. It would feel so selfish to me if owning an iPhone to force other platform users into an inferior experience or making them pay for your convenience.
SMS/MMS are free in the US, and have been for nearly a decade. That is why people in the US have never had the same urgency to download the data based apps like whatsapp. You can have group chats over sms.

As far as iMessage vs Whatsapp is concerned... Its all about how the argument is framed.

If we're talking about the reality of the situation... then, in the US, iMessage is the "superior" option because 1) Apple is practically half the market here. 2) It falls back to SMS/MMS when it needs to communicate with the other half. Meanwhile, Whatapp has ~10% of US mobile users and those are the only people it is able to communicate with. If all the Android users in the US were using whatsapp then I could see a compelling argument for Apple users causing fragmentation and "Forcing" others to use SMS... but that is not the case. Not even a majority of Android users are using whatsapp to communicate with one another.

If we're talking about what we all wish would happen.... then RCS is the superior option. The carriers fully support it + Apple adopts it into iMessage = everyone has quality messaging tools without having to do anything or fork over more data to facebook... especially when the founders of whatsapp left over privacy and data concerns.
 

Vilix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Texas
WhatsApp, along with other messaging apps are very popular here in the US. I think the thing is that sms and iMessages are the most common denominator. 🤷‍♂️

Edit: As mentioned above sms and iMessage are free in the US. Another reason why those are still the go to messaging apps for Americans.
 

Carbon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
943
I know how imessage works but GreenMoneky said specifically that they all use SMS.

And again, it is apples fault that there is no imessage for android.
To an iPhone user, there is no difference. iMessage works for everything EXCEPT sharing rich text messaging, high res images and video specifically with Android Users. And most iPhone users couldn't give a rats ass about that feature. So they use SMS/MMS because they can "talk" to everyone, even though they can only use advanced messaging app features with other iPhone users. The Tyranny of the Default.

This ONLY works in the US because we're the only large country where Apple has such a dominant marketshare. And in the case of teens, the iPhone has become so culturally ingrained in how kids grow up, that there is a real social stigma to being a "green bubble". That's why over 80% of US teens use an iPhone.

OF COURSE it is Apple's fault. And they will fight long and hard to ensure this remains the status quo for as long as possible.

Carriers adopting CCMI is at least a small, long-overdue step in the right direction. It is too bad Google couldn't strong-arm the carriers into leveling the playing field in the US messaging market. But everyone is too afraid of pissing off Apple here to really make any significant moves.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,256
It's because iPhones have only started to get non-shitass storage sizes (at prices people would actually pay) very recently. Storage was historically relatively limited on iPhones, so the idea of just downloading yet another random messaging app wasn't very popular. Whereas with most Android phones you can just chuck a MicroSD in there (and Google has implemented internal storage extension via microSD since Nougat).
This is such a terrible argument, I had Whatsapp on the 3GS, people have been using this since Blackberry handsets were still popular. How big do you think these apps are?
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,689
Is it really a big deal? Yes messaging options are fragmented but if you have notifications on and just use whatever app your friends/family use, then it’s fine isn’t it?
 

spookyghost

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,047
Pretty bonkers how much hand wringing there is over installing a free app but people will happily buy a $700 device for the same functionality.

A lot of people in western Europe are transitioning from WhatsApp to Telegram but it's happening slowly. When I first downloaded the app I had only one contact that used it, now it's 30 plus. It hasn't been some horrific horror show to use two messaging apps at once (three really as I also get SMS), the notification turns up and I tap it. When I was barely using the app I wasn't stressful for me that it was taking up a few dozen mb on my phone and not really being utilised.

I know that my 72 year old father and his friends will not transition away from WhatsApp, they're happy with what it does and I'll keep that app even if he's the only person I talk to on it. I would rather have it installed and never use it than be tied to a hardware specific platform which offers a lesser experience to some of my contacts.
 
Dec 4, 2017
1,126
This is such a terrible argument, I had Whatsapp on the 3GS, people have been using this since Blackberry handsets were still popular. How big do you think these apps are?
It's not about how big they are individually. It's when you have FBM and Whatsapp and Telegram and Signal and LINE and etc. alongside the other stuff like Netflix, Instagram, Youtube et al. it becomes a problem for your average 16 GB phone. Not to mention that the app itself may not be big, but the cached data tends to take a bit of space.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,256
It's not about how big they are individually. It's when you have FBM and Whatsapp and Telegram and Signal and LINE and etc. alongside the other stuff like Netflix, Instagram, Youtube et al. it becomes a problem for your average 16 GB phone. Not to mention that the app itself may not be big, but the cached data tends to take a bit of space.
still not buying it, the Bold 9000 had 1gb of memory and there was an 8gb 3GS. The rest of the world didn't have any problems with using messaging apps and managing storage.

America just lags behind these days in these things.
 

Clefargle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,190
Limburg
Aaahhhhhh

sure is nice being an iMessages user. WhatsApp on the side just for those android friends that are terrified of SMS for whatever reason.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
I'm still sending text messages to someone with one of those modern flip phones and a 3G only Motorola Droid phone
So can I start a (named) group conversation on Android by SMS and it'll function just like an iMessage group conversation? I mean I can send sms messages to multiple recipients on Android, but never seen it as a group conversation like on whatsapp or so.
A group message is an mms feature, but any name you give it is just for your device, unlike with other programs
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,180
So can I start a (named) group conversation on Android by SMS and it'll function just like an iMessage group conversation? I mean I can send sms messages to multiple recipients on Android, but never seen it as a group conversation like on whatsapp or so.
I havent used an Android phone in years but back then you could choose between SMS, which would mass text each message individually, or you create MMS groups which sends to a proper group. The functionality is super basic but it works.
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,799
welcome, nowhere
Google is just an incompetent tech company that sells ads.

(Not that Android isn't a success. However, it's a free operating system that they use to basically game the system and push all their services onto consumers.)

Fuck.
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,843
Google is just an incompetent tech company that sells ads.

(Not that Android isn't a success. However, it's a free operating system that they use to basically game the system and push all their services onto consumers.)

Fuck.
It wasn’t just Google behind RCS. It was based on 3GPP specifications and was backed by GSMA as well. US operators just suck is all.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,938
It honestly baffles me how people keep pushing Telegram, has anyone actually looked into them, they aren't exactly transparent. While you could say Whatsapp owned by Facebook aren't either at least they are using standard encryption and not proprietary stuff like Telegram. There is a number of other ones you could like Wire that are more open. Just seems weird to bat for Telegram when people post about them. I think that's why SMS isn't ideal these days and needs replaced, if you want privacy like iMessage etc. but maybe most people don't care.
 

ruggiex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
753
I didn't know that MMS is also included in this plans. Here in austria they aren't included and are expensive as hell.Now it makes more sense to me why you still use sms and mms.
Which is another problem, iPhone users don't understand how shitty their video and pictures look to non iPhone users. That's the main reason I tell people to get off iMessenge.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,168
Pretty bonkers how much hand wringing there is over installing a free app but people will happily buy a $700 device for the same functionality.

A lot of people in western Europe are transitioning from WhatsApp to Telegram but it's happening slowly. When I first downloaded the app I had only one contact that used it, now it's 30 plus. It hasn't been some horrific horror show to use two messaging apps at once (three really as I also get SMS), the notification turns up and I tap it. When I was barely using the app I wasn't stressful for me that it was taking up a few dozen mb on my phone and not really being utilised.

I know that my 72 year old father and his friends will not transition away from WhatsApp, they're happy with what it does and I'll keep that app even if he's the only person I talk to on it. I would rather have it installed and never use it than be tied to a hardware specific platform which offers a lesser experience to some of my contacts.
No one here uses WhatsApp. Installing it doesn't really help you communicate if everyone else isn't using it.
 

Royalan

Yeah I'm in my bag, but I'm in his too.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,869
These conversations are frustrating.

If you don't live in the US, and don't seem to be willing to understand that Unlimited SMS/MMS evolved differently here and drastically changed how people in the US adopted apps like WhatsApp, then what are you really getting out of this conversation?

I'm just seeing people going to great lengths to explain this difference, while continuing to be ignored by people who would be quite upset if that same ignorance were shown in reverse.
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,205
I've only ever had an iPhone for 2 of the 10 or so years I've owned a smartphone and I've never really had any issues with messaging.

I kind of don't understand why it's such a big deal but I'm 35 and maybe I'm just past the stage were people are weird about which phone you own or what apps you use.

I'm in the US and I have a group of 10 friends and we use WhatsApp for group stuff.
 

MajesticSoup

Member
Feb 22, 2019
965
These conversations are frustrating.

If you don't live in the US, and don't seem to be willing to understand that Unlimited SMS/MMS evolved differently here and drastically changed how people in the US adopted apps like WhatsApp, then what are you really getting out of this conversation?

I'm just seeing people going to great lengths to explain this difference, while continuing to be ignored by people who would be quite upset if that same ignorance were shown in reverse.
It has evolved differently in US. It evolved into annoying green bubbles vs blue bubbles. Youre ok with that?
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,143
These conversations are frustrating.

If you don't live in the US, and don't seem to be willing to understand that Unlimited SMS/MMS evolved differently here and drastically changed how people in the US adopted apps like WhatsApp, then what are you really getting out of this conversation?

I'm just seeing people going to great lengths to explain this difference, while continuing to be ignored by people who would be quite upset if that same ignorance were shown in reverse.
This.

WhatsApp is a great app and we get why it's so used. However, it'll never catch on in the US for reasons outlined in this thread.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,256
These conversations are frustrating.

If you don't live in the US, and don't seem to be willing to understand that Unlimited SMS/MMS evolved differently here and drastically changed how people in the US adopted apps like WhatsApp, then what are you really getting out of this conversation?

I'm just seeing people going to great lengths to explain this difference, while continuing to be ignored by people who would be quite upset if that same ignorance were shown in reverse.
America: *complains about a thing*

Rest of the world: "hey we figured out this solution years ago, why don't you-"

America: "ONLY THE THING"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,775
These conversations are frustrating.

If you don't live in the US, and don't seem to be willing to understand that Unlimited SMS/MMS evolved differently here and drastically changed how people in the US adopted apps like WhatsApp, then what are you really getting out of this conversation?

I'm just seeing people going to great lengths to explain this difference, while continuing to be ignored by people who would be quite upset if that same ignorance were shown in reverse.
I'm not seeing a great deal of disagreement over the reasons for adoption.

What's frustrating to me is people making an argument for SMS/MMS being adequate, when it isn't. It's fine to make that claim when you're on iOS but there are a wealth of features in modern messaging protocols that SMS and MMS doesn't come close to covering. An iMessage user would not be happy going from that protocol to one without:

- high res images
- location pins
- live location
- stickers
- proper group messaging
- read and delivery receipts (delivery is on SMS depending on carrier)
- voice notes
- video and voice calls
- status updates
- profile images set in the client
- forwarding
- native backup
- end to end encryption
- privacy settings

Really it's down to Android users in the US, clearly that's what happened from some of the replies, WhatsApp is on their iPhone for Android users who expect more.
 

Vilix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Texas
America: *complains about a thing*

Rest of the world: "hey we figured out this solution years ago, why don't you-"

America: "ONLY THE THING"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However in this thread it’s not Americans doing the complaining. We’re perfectly happy using sms because it’s free. Some Europeans in this thread can’t seem to understand that.
 

Royalan

Yeah I'm in my bag, but I'm in his too.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,869
America: *complains about a thing*

Rest of the world: "hey we figured out this solution years ago, why don't you-"

America: "ONLY THE THING"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is incredibly reductive. The US is not Europe, and vise versa. It's strange that, in almost any other subject, people seem to be more willing to understand this.

I have hundreds of contacts in my phone.

Of those contacts I've collected over the years, a grand total of two use WhatsApp.

So what should I do to change that situation? Other than waste my precious time becoming essentially a brand ambassador for an App for free?

If your grand solution to the issue of messaging in the US is just "well, why don't you all just start using [insert app here]?" Maybe posit that you don't have much to contribute to this conversation.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,256
You're confused that people are complaining here about this.
However in this thread it’s not Americans doing the complaining. We’re perfectly happy using sms because it’s free. Some Europeans in this thread can’t seem to understand that.
The articles in the OP were complaining and by inference so was the OP.

Do you seriously not have wifi or data? If you're online, messaging apps are free anyway.

This is incredibly reductive. The US is not Europe, and vise versa. It's strange that, in almost any other subject, people seem to be more willing to understand this.

I have hundreds of contacts in my phone.

Of those contacts I've collected over the years, a grand total of two use WhatsApp.

So what should I do to change that situation? Other than waste my precious time becoming essentially a brand ambassador for an App for free?

If your grand solution to the issue of messaging in the US is just "well, why don't you all just start using [insert app here]?" Maybe posit that you don't have much to contribute to this conversation.
That's the weird thing, like somehow everyone took up Whatsapp/Telegram/whatever all at the same time. They didn't, in fact I didn't use Whatsapp for a while after everyone else did cos I had BBM and almost everyone on there. But then a couple of people asked me to use it so I downloaded it cos hey it's just one extra app.

Then the functionality outstripped everything else by a huge margin and it became normal to just use them. I use text messages to pay for parking and that's it.

It's just so weird how America is still wedded to this in 2019. We get it, you get free SMSes but it's like saying you don't need a word processor cos you have Notepad.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,985
New York
Salt in the wound: Apple tried to offer iMessage to carriers for android. They declined.

Why do I care about frsgmentstion or use on an automated scale?

Everyone I know uses WhatsApp including everyone with iPhones.
Not handing over all my text messages to Facebook....


This made sense once upon a time. But Android is a juggernaut now. Google could absolutely throw their weight around if they want to.

It's just depressing. I vastly prefer Android, but for the first time since I left iPhone with the 5s, I'm feeling the pressure to return...almost solely because of iMessage.
Yeah, Google doesn’t seem to want to go to war for this feature. They absolutely can and should though. It’s about to be 2020 and Android should have a robust text system similar to iMessage.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,985
New York
This is incredibly reductive. The US is not Europe, and vise versa. It's strange that, in almost any other subject, people seem to be more willing to understand this.

I have hundreds of contacts in my phone.

Of those contacts I've collected over the years, a grand total of two use WhatsApp.

So what should I do to change that situation? Other than waste my precious time becoming essentially a brand ambassador for an App for free?

If your grand solution to the issue of messaging in the US is just "well, why don't you all just start using [insert app here]?" Maybe posit that you don't have much to contribute to this conversation.
Agreed. My 75 year old father isn’t going to learn some convoluted texting app. He knows how to tap the green icon and all texts go there regardless of platform. Same for the rest of my family.
 

Vilix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Texas
Do you seriously not have wifi or data? If you're online, messaging apps are free anyway.
Of course we do. We just don’t use it because sms texts over cellular signal is free here and highly robust. Also, WiFi is almost entirely provided by private users (home, businesses). It’s not a public utility like it is in the EU and Asia.
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,143
The articles in the OP were complaining and by inference so was the OP.

Do you seriously not have wifi or data? If you're online, messaging apps are free anyway.



That's the weird thing, like somehow everyone took up Whatsapp/Telegram/whatever all at the same time. They didn't, in fact I didn't use Whatsapp for a while after everyone else did cos I had BBM and almost everyone on there. But then a couple of people asked me to use it so I downloaded it cos hey it's just one extra app.

Then the functionality outstripped everything else by a huge margin and it became normal to just use them. I use text messages to pay for parking and that's it.

It's just so weird how America is still wedded to this in 2019. We get it, you get free SMSes but it's like saying you don't need a word processor cos you have Notepad.
You guys had a reason to (most cellular plans charging for SMS/MMS at the time), we didn't since those features have been free for us for years.

Then Apple dropped iMessage for their phones and locked everyone using their phones to their system.

We're not wedded to SMS, people have been wanting something better for a while now. There's just a lot of factors preventing it from happening as fast as we want it to.

SMS/MMS sucks and I'd love nothing more than for it to die in a fire, but it's what we're (sadly) stuck with for the immediate future.
 
Oct 27, 2017
263
San Francisco, Ca
I don’t understand the “no one in the US uses WhatsApp” crowd. Lived in SF and live in NYC now. I do all communication, with all friends, over WhatsApp. It’s what everyone uses here.
Is it a central US thing to not use it?
 

Vilix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Texas
I don’t understand the “no one in the US uses WhatsApp” crowd. Lived in SF and live in NYC now. I do all communication, with all friends, over WhatsApp. It’s what everyone uses here.
Is it a central US thing to not use it?
I think it’s just different among each individual. My brother lives in the SF area and works for Oracle. Everyone he communicates with uses sms.
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,143
I don’t understand the “no one in the US uses WhatsApp” crowd. Lived in SF and live in NYC now. I do all communication, with all friends, over WhatsApp. It’s what everyone uses here.
Is it a central US thing to not use it?
My mother in law would never switch to WhatsApp, or any other messaging service.

She's way to stubborn and SMS works for her, so she won't change.

Most of the people I communicate with use FB Messenger, but I have to use SMS to message my mother in law.

It's not a location thing, its that most people just don't care. All they want is to send and receive messages, SMS does that and is built into their phone.

They don't care about if there's a better way to do something if what they're currently using works.
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,775
PowerThroughLov I'd be insterested to know what the spread is, my family in San Diego and Miami are on WhatsApp, they do travel a fair amount. I have to imagine if you have an international social circle you're going to be on other platforms. I think it would stand to reason that in an international city like NYC you're going to see more use of those platforms, but who knows.

Agreed. My 75 year old father isn’t going to learn some convoluted texting app. He knows how to tap the green icon and all texts go there regardless of platform. Same for the rest of my family.
My dad at 73 manages well, maybe In 2 years he'll find a new meaning for convoluted.
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,143
I'm not seeing a great deal of disagreement over the reasons for adoption.

What's frustrating to me is people making an argument for SMS/MMS being adequate, when it isn't. It's fine to make that claim when you're on iOS but there are a wealth of features in modern messaging protocols that SMS and MMS doesn't come close to covering. An iMessage user would not be happy going from that protocol to one without:

- high res images
- location pins
- live location
- stickers
- proper group messaging
- read and delivery receipts (delivery is on SMS depending on carrier)
- voice notes
- video and voice calls
- status updates
- profile images set in the client
- forwarding
- native backup
- end to end encryption
- privacy settings

Really it's down to Android users in the US, clearly that's what happened from some of the replies, WhatsApp is on their iPhone for Android users who expect more.
Nobody is arguing that SMS/MMS is better, we know it's not.

Here's how much of a hassle it would be to move my mother in law to WhatsApp (or another messaging service)

I'd have to convince her (easier said then done, she's stubborn as shit)*.

Then I'd have to convince my fiancee and my sister in law (again easier said then done)

Then I'd have to get my mother in law's friends to move over or they can't message with each other (which won't happen)

The headache this would cause just isn't worth it.

The alternative to all of that is to just stick with SMS/MMS and avoid the headache.

* This women refuses to accept change and will fiercely fight anything that takes her out of her comfort zone.
 

Royalan

Yeah I'm in my bag, but I'm in his too.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,869
The United States is a country of over 300 million people.

The vast majority of those people are not international travelers.

Born and raised in Los Angeles here. Currently live on the East Coast (Philly). Again, a grand total of two people I know use WhatsApp.
 

Rushersauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
The United States is a country of over 300 million people.

The vast majority of those people are not international travelers.

Born and raised in Los Angeles here. Currently live on the East Coast (Philly). Again, a grand total of two people I know use WhatsApp.
Hey, there's a comment in the last page by Freestyler that I reported. Can you check it, please?
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,669
The articles in the OP were complaining and by inference so was the OP.

Do you seriously not have wifi or data? If you're online, messaging apps are free anyway.
Don't confuse a tech article discussing how things are evolving and the problems involved with demands of the vast majority of the people. They're not even the same. Most people out there aren't complaining to the point where they're interested in finding a solution. That doesn't mean they won't take a solution that is thrust upon them but they aren't going out there searching for a solution.

I don’t understand the “no one in the US uses WhatsApp” crowd. Lived in SF and live in NYC now. I do all communication, with all friends, over WhatsApp. It’s what everyone uses here.
Is it a central US thing to not use it?
I live in the Silicon Valley and I don't know anyone who uses it. I even tried at one point and it was an annoying result. It's not something just in the fly over states.