US carriers kill Google's RCS messaging initiative

[bsigg]

Google fucked this up by not making RCS a primary standard of Android. They should have implemented it and held their ground.

I don't understand the "no one in the US uses WhatsApp" crowd. Lived in SF and live in NYC now. I do all communication, with all friends, over WhatsApp. It's what everyone uses here.
Is it a central US thing to not use it?

Click to shrink...

Adoption of anything other than the stock messaging apps on phones in the US is incredibly small. Apple has created a lock in with iMessage in the US and majority of people using iPhones will stay with iPhones because they (only) know that everything on their current iPhone will transfer seamlessly to a new one.

I would say most Android users just go with whatever carrier messaging app is installed. There are obviously people who know or use other apps/services but most people just go with what's easiest.

 

[PowerThroughLov]

That's weird to me. In SF (and now in NYC) I play Sports using "ZogSports" pretty often, and in both cities WhatsApp was simply what teams used to communicate with each other. Everyone already had it, and it was super easy to find everyone on it. Really weird to hear of others in the same area not using it. It's ubiquitous in my circles already.

 

[MajesticSoup]

Nobody is arguing that SMS/MMS is better, we know it's not.

Here's how much of a hassle it would be to move my mother in law to WhatsApp (or another messaging service)

I'd have to convince her (easier said then done, she's stubborn as shit)*.

Then I'd have to convince my fiancee and my sister in law (again easier said then done)

Then I'd have to get my mother in law's friends to move over or they can't message with each other (which won't happen)

The headache this would cause just isn't worth it.

The alternative to all of that is to just stick with SMS/MMS and avoid the headache.

* This women refuses to accept change and will fiercely fight anything that takes her out of her comfort zone.

Click to shrink...

You say that but I guarantee your mother in law uses Facebook to message her friends. Old people love Facebook. And your fiancé and sister and law use Instagram to message friends.
And to make it easier WhatsApp doesn't even require registering or any passwords.

 

[DBT85]

You guys had a reason to (most cellular plans charging for SMS/MMS at the time), we didn't since those features have been free for us for years.

Click to shrink...

I see this a lot but genuinely I can't remember how long its been since I had anything other than unlimited texts, or at the outside like 5000 a month.

Longer than I've been using the evil green anyway.

 

[Deleted member 8860]

It'll be interesting to see how WhatsApp usage evolves as in-app advertising is introduced next year and grows from there. Facebook privacy scandals have had little negative impact on WhatsApp's growth, but end-users don't see the direct effects of those -- they will see ads, even if the first wave is rather limited.

 

[oledome]

linkboy you have the scenario really played out with your mother in law! She sounds stubborn, and I can imagine that it would be a hassle and also unnecessary since she's fine. It is all to do with what everyone is using though, technical hassle and the stubbornness of older people is not the reason, it's just not a solid argument. People are stubborn but the minute everyone around them moves on, they have to move on too.

As for no one saying SMS/MMS is adequate (I never said better) that's essentially what can be read with the "I have iMessage so it's all good" attitude. Meanwhile Android users like Royalan are considering switching mobile platforms for how messed up the texting situation in the US is.

 

[linkboy]

You say that but I guarantee your mother in law uses Facebook to message her friends. Old people love Facebook. And your fiancé and sister and law use Instagram to message friends.
And to make it easier WhatsApp doesn't even require registering or any passwords.

Click to shrink...

And you'd be 100% wrong.

This woman flat refuses to use Facebook, even if it would make her life easier. She's that stubborn

 

[Interested Observer]

It'll be interesting to see how WhatsApp usage evolves as in-app advertising is introduced next year and grows from there. Facebook privacy scandals have had little negative impact on WhatsApp's growth, but end-users don't see the direct effects of those -- they will see ads, even if the first wave is rather limited.

Click to shrink...

Didn't know they were putting ads in, shit. Though I always did wonder how it made any money.

 

[linkboy]

linkboy you have the scenario really played out with your mother in law! She sounds stubborn, and I can imagine that it would be a hassle and also unnecessary since she's fine. It is all to do with what everyone is using though, technical hassle and the stubbornness of older people is not the reason, it's just not a solid argument. People are stubborn but the minute everyone around them moves on, they have to move on too.

Click to shrink...

You're right that people will move if forced to, the issue is getting them to move.

Once this lady gets stuck in her ways, nothing short of Jesus Christ could get her to change her mind.

I'm working with someone who doesn't believe depression exists. That should tell you the level of stubbornness I'm dealing with.

 

[McStickenstein]

Just don't message anyone, problem solved.

This is inevitable though. Every tech firm, carrier, hardware manufacturer, etc. wants their own piece of the pie.

 

[Royalan]

linkboy you have the scenario really played out with your mother in law! She sounds stubborn, and I can imagine that it would be a hassle and also unnecessary since she's fine. It is all to do with what everyone is using though, technical hassle and the stubbornness of older people is not the reason, it's just not a solid argument. People are stubborn but the minute everyone around them moves on, they have to move on too.

As for no one saying SMS/MMS is adequate (I never said better) that's essentially what can be read with the "I have iMessage so it's all good" attitude. Meanwhile Android users like Royalan are considering switching mobile platforms for how messed up the texting situation in the US is.

Click to shrink...

The line that I put in bold is the problem with your position here. You're expecting a "sea change" movement in a hyper diverse country of over 300 million, while completely underestimating what it would take to actually make that happen.

Again, if the solution to the US' texting clusterfuck was as simple as "well, why don't we all just move to this [predetermined app]?" then it wouldn't be a problem because we'd all have already done it. Nobody is sticking with SMS/MMS because it's better or even preferred. You have to examine the forces that are keeping people exactly where they are.

Google was on the right track when they tried to incentivize carriers into implementing RCS on their networks last year. Where they, once again, fucked up is in thinking that carriers would just go along with this without needing to be strong-armed. Carriers are stupid, and when they're not being stupid they're incredibly profit based. Google is simply not going to be able to make a unified RCS platform happen on its OS without throwing it's weight around. "We're Google. Android is our platform. We're doing this. We don't care what you think. Tough shit. Where are you going to go? Windows Phone? LOL"

 

[Podge293]

WhatsApp is for poor people who can't afford iPhones. Thankfully 99% of people who are worth messaging here in New Zealand have iPhones, because Lorde knows I won't waste my time on some dodgy third party app like WhatsApp or Messenger.

Click to shrink...

My phone cost more than an iPhone. I use whatsapp.

How is whatsapp dodgy exactly?

 

[konka]

I can't imagine not having iMessage. Being able to use it on my Mac/iPhone/iPad seamlessly is unbeatable and a key reason I'll never go to android. I used Whatsapp when abroad and it's but it's nowhere near as elegant or intuitive as Apple's solution.

 

[oledome]

Royalan I'm not expecting a sea change, as far as I can see the mess will continue for a long time with the real solution being to get an iPhone; which makes the whole thing worse in a way. I think that SMS/MMS functions just about enough to where the inertia means there isn't a massive shift. That said at least anecdotally from the thread we have people from parts of the US saying those around them and themselves are on the platform, we have a reluctant iPhone user on the platform because of their friends on Android.

Do you really only have 2 out of hundreds of contacts on WhatsApp? If you started a new convo, the list would have 2 people in it??? I don't want to sound like a WhatsApp shill either, I know they're owned by Facebook and would like a viable alternative, but it goes back to the issue of what everyone is using and how hard it would be to have everyone change - it would be even harder when WhatsApp functions as highly as the rest of them.

I agree that Google have cocked the whole thing up time and again, I don't know what they can do at this point, they still need carriers to play ball for this, it's not like when they forced their proprietary Allo or whatever onto Android.

 

[Deleted member 19003]

So wait, someone said Google is dropping Hangouts? Why? I've used it on Android/gmail for years just fine :(

 

[thisismadness]

As for no one saying SMS/MMS is adequate (I never said better) that's essentially what can be read with the "I have iMessage so it's all good" attitude. Meanwhile Android users like Royalan are considering switching mobile platforms for how messed up the texting situation in the US is.

Click to shrink...

Adequacy is subjective. In fact, the problem is exactly that large portions of the US are ok just using SMS/MMS. If they weren't, then we'd likely see much higher penetration of third party messaging apps.

For those of us that do care, you just have to decide with the people you communicate with most. If they also care about more robust messaging features, then it should be easy to convince them to make the switch.

 

[Deleted member 8860]

Holy shit. There's a workaround that was discovered a few hours ago that bypasses the carriers and allows for all Android devices to use RCS with Google's Messages.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UniversalP...utorial_enable_rcs_on_any_carrierdevice_with/

This is a non-advertised Google server, so it may be pulled/blocked at any time (or, conversely, fully enabled at any time), but right now you can say fuck the carriers and go with Google's solution.

 

[Infinity Times Two]

Holy shit. There's a workaround that was discovered a few hours ago that bypasses the carriers and allows for all Android devices to use RCS with Google's Messages.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UniversalP...utorial_enable_rcs_on_any_carrierdevice_with/

This is a non-advertised Google server, so it may be pulled/blocked at any time (or, conversely, fully enabled at any time), but right now you can say fuck the carriers and go with Google's solution.

Click to shrink...

This seems like something Google will block to preserve carrier relations. Which would be a shame, since Google Messages is a nice app.

 

[oledome]

Adequacy is subjective. In fact, the problem is exactly that large portions of the US are ok just using SMS/MMS. If they weren't, then we'd likely see much higher penetration of third party messaging apps.

For those of us that do care, you just have to decide with the people you communicate with most. If they also care about more robust messaging features, then it should be easy to convince them to make the switch.

Click to shrink...

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at with my last post, SMS/MMS is not good at all but it's just about functional enough to where the inertia stops a large shift, I guess in that way it's adequate, just not for me and many others, I'm assuming yourself included?

As to your point about what others around you are doing we have examples in the thread where that's exactly what has happened. It's not a switch however, both can exist on the phone at the same time.

 

[turbobrick]

I'm not seeing a great deal of disagreement over the reasons for adoption.

What's frustrating to me is people making an argument for SMS/MMS being adequate, when it isn't. It's fine to make that claim when you're on iOS but there are a wealth of features in modern messaging protocols that SMS and MMS doesn't come close to covering. An iMessage user would not be happy going from that protocol to one without:

- high res images
- location pins
- live location
- stickers
- proper group messaging
- read and delivery receipts (delivery is on SMS depending on carrier)
- voice notes
- video and voice calls
- status updates
- profile images set in the client
- forwarding
- native backup
- end to end encryption
- privacy settings

Really it's down to Android users in the US, clearly that's what happened from some of the replies, WhatsApp is on their iPhone for Android users who expect more.

Click to shrink...

It is adequate. I can send and recieve high res images. I can also have group conversations. Most of your list I wouldnt consider importand features.

 

[NineConsonants]

It is adequate. I can send and recieve high res images. I can also have group conversations. Most of your list I wouldnt consider importand features.

Click to shrink...

Group messaging on SMS sucks. You can't leave the group. You can't have controls that are based on the group, like silencing the group. Contacts are just a bunch of numbers unless you have them saved in the group.

 

[turbobrick]

Group messaging on SMS sucks. You can't leave the group. You can't have controls that are based on the group, like silencing the group. Contacts are just a bunch of numbers unless you have them saved in the group.

Click to shrink...

I only have a group text conversation maybe once a month at the most. If I am, those people are usually contacts in my phone, so theyre not just numbers. I have no reason to silence or leave, otherwise why would I be in the group chat.

 

[makingmusic476]

Holy shit. There's a workaround that was discovered a few hours ago that bypasses the carriers and allows for all Android devices to use RCS with Google's Messages.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UniversalP...utorial_enable_rcs_on_any_carrierdevice_with/

This is a non-advertised Google server, so it may be pulled/blocked at any time (or, conversely, fully enabled at any time), but right now you can say fuck the carriers and go with Google's solution.

Click to shrink...

It looks like it's a new development only available in the beta version. I wonder if CCMI is a response to Google bypassing more and more carriers with RCS, or if this development is a response to CCMI.

 

[NineConsonants]

I only have a group text conversation maybe once a month at the most. If I am, those people are usually contacts in my phone, so theyre not just numbers. I have no reason to silence or leave, otherwise why would I be in the group chat.

Click to shrink...

That is common when you are in many group chats and in large ones that are busy but not always relevant to you.

And what kind of argument is "I have no reason to leave a group chats? You can't imagine a scenario where you decide you no longer wish to be a part of a group chat and want to leave it and no longer receive messages of that group chat?

 

[turbobrick]

That is common when you are in many group chats and in large ones that are busy but not always relevant to you.

And what kind of argument is "I have no reason to leave a group chats? You can't imagine a scenario where you decide you no longer wish to be a part of a group chat and want to leave it and no longer receive messages of that group chat?

Click to shrink...

I can imagine it for other people, its just not a concern for me. I dont think Ive had more than 1 group chat going at once, and most only last a day or 2.

 

[NineConsonants]

I can imagine it for other people, its just not a concern for me. I dont think Ive had more than 1 group chat going at once, and most only last a day or 2.

Click to shrink...

Okay, but clearly should should be able to see the general importance of this. Even if it isn't something you need to do as of right now, it should be pretty clear that it's valuable to be able to leave a group chat even for you.

 

[Pimienta]

Google should had made Signal the de facto sms app instead of whatever the fuck they did.

 

[DominicanPower]

I can't imagine not having iMessage. Being able to use it on my Mac/iPhone/iPad seamlessly is unbeatable and a key reason I'll never go to android. I used Whatsapp when abroad and it's but it's nowhere near as elegant or intuitive as Apple's solution.

Click to shrink...

Lol @ What's App not being intuitive. It's really straight forward.

 

[Darknight]

Lol @ What's App not being intuitive. It's really straight forward.

Click to shrink...

It's still not as elegant as iMessage though. The one thing that kills all these other apps is it doesn't fall back on SMS/MMS. That fact alone makes iMessage better from an iOS user's perspective. There's no need to think or wonder who is using what; it just works and it figures out how to contact the person in the background.

 

[SMD]

.

 

[konka]

No one wants it to fall back on SMS, that's the entire point.

Click to shrink...

You'd rather your message not go through at all if you don't have data then to get sent as an SMS? That's bizarre.

 

[Rotkehle]

It's still not as elegant as iMessage though. The one thing that kills all these other apps is it doesn't fall back on SMS/MMS. That fact alone makes iMessage better from an iOS user's perspective. There's no need to think or wonder who is using what; it just works and it figures out how to contact the person in the background.

Click to shrink...

No one I know want to fall back on SMS. When the coverage is so bad that WhatsApp messages aren't coming through sms are failing too. At least where I had coverage problem.

 

[NineConsonants]

You'd rather your message not go through at all if you don't have data then to get sent as an SMS? That's bizarre.

Click to shrink...

Not if you're trying to dodge ridiculous international fees.

 

[Infinity Times Two]

It's still not as elegant as iMessage though. The one thing that kills all these other apps is it doesn't fall back on SMS/MMS. That fact alone makes iMessage better from an iOS user's perspective. There's no need to think or wonder who is using what; it just works and it figures out how to contact the person in the background.

Click to shrink...

The brief time I used Android, the SMS integration in FB Messenger worked similar to iMessage in that, you message people and it will try the Messenger way or go SMS if the people aren't on Facebook.

I still vastly prefer iMessage since it's cleaner, there are no ads and you're not giving your data to Facebook.

 

[SMD]

.

 

[MJForum Poster]

iPhone lock-in in the US is driven by iMessage. It's the #1 thing keeping many people tethered to Apple.

 

[hateradio]

Salt in the wound: Apple tried to offer iMessage to carriers for android. They declined.

Click to shrink...

What does that mean exactly? If Apple released iMessage on Android without SMS/MMS fallback that would be alright with me. I currently have that disabled on my iPhone. If your messages are that important, I'll see them when I get to it.

I live in the Silicon Valley and I don't know anyone who uses it. I even tried at one point and it was an annoying result. It's not something just in the fly over states.

Click to shrink...

You probably don't work with people who just recently moved to the US then?

If you ever signed into it and looked at your contacts, I bet you'd find a lot of people on there.

I used to use it a lot because I do consider E2E encryption a bare minimum in my comms, but I know other people don't care. #thanksamerica

So wait, someone said Google is dropping Hangouts? Why? I've used it on Android/gmail for years just fine :(

Click to shrink...

Yeah, they are killing hangouts and going to release "Hangouts Chat" (their enterprise thing) to the masses.

 

[Kareha]

Only time I ever use SMS is when I get a one time code from my bank or shop.

 

[Darknight]

No one wants it to fall back on SMS, that's the entire point.

Click to shrink...

No one I know want to fall back on SMS. When the coverage is so bad that WhatsApp messages aren't coming through sms are failing too. At least where I had coverage problem.

Click to shrink...

But people do and that's one of the reasons people love iMessage so much. You guys are missing one of the best features and one of the shortcomings without understanding how things are elsewhere. It's amazing how you can't grasp it. Let me lay it out in a simple way.

With Whatsapp, you need to know if the person has Whatsapp or not when trying to contact them. With iMessage you don't need to know if they have iMessage for it to work. iMessage just works and figures out the right protocol to send the message to in the background. If the person has iMesssage, it sends it that way, if they don't because they're on Android, it sends an SMS instead. It's completely seamless and the person just sends a message to their contact without having to think about it. Whatsapp doesn't do that in the case where someone doesn't have Whatsapp. That's the barrier and how it's less elegant. You can like Whatsapp all you want but there's no denying that iMessage is much more elegant and seamless with trying to send someone a message.

 

[Royalan]

The brief time I used Android, the SMS integration in FB Messenger worked similar to iMessage in that, you message people and it will try the Messenger way or go SMS if the people aren't on Facebook.

I still vastly prefer iMessage since there are no ads and you're not giving your data to Facebook.

Click to shrink...

Exactly.

Facebook Messenger is proof that Google's deficiencies have less to do with "We can't piss off the carriers!" and more to do with "We don't want to rock the boat with carriers."

Facebook Messenger works EXACTLY like iMessage does, including falling back to SMS within the same app. This is the main reason Facebook Messenger has been more successful than ANY Google text venture. It took a system most people in the US already had and integrated rich texting features on top of it.

It's just so frustrating. Google had the app in place with Allo. Allo was a great messaging app. But Google refusing to integrate Allo with SMS doomed it right out the gate.

With Whatsapp, you need to know if the person has Whatsapp or not when trying to contact them. With iMessage you don't need to know if they have iMessage for it to work. iMessage just works and figures out the right protocol to send the message to in the background. If the person has iMesssage, it sends it that way, if they don't because they're on Android, it sends an SMS instead. It's completely seamless and the person just sends a message to their contact without having to think about it. Whatsapp doesn't do that in the case where someone doesn't have Whatsapp. That's the barrier and how it's less elegant. You can like Whatsapp all you want but there's no denying that iMessage is much more elegant and seamless with trying to send someone a message.

Click to shrink...

Exactly.

 

[Irminsul]

I mean, you can use Signal as your standard SMS app on Android and it will send either a Signal message or a SMS to a contact, depending on whether said contact has Signal installed. It's not like this is some amazing feature only Apple have thought about.

 

[JealousKenny]

You say that but I guarantee your mother in law uses Facebook to message her friends. Old people love Facebook. And your fiancé and sister and law use Instagram to message friends.
And to make it easier WhatsApp doesn't even require registering or any passwords.

Click to shrink...

Facebook is a unique program that there really isn't a replacement for readily installed on the phone. And older people don't use Facebook messenger, they post directly to someone's time-line.

Instagram is a unique program that there really isn't a replacement for readily installed on the phone.

Everyone's phone already has a messaging app installed to it. A messaging app that works with everyone. People don't want to switch between different messaging apps to text people.

 

[Infinity Times Two]

I mean, you can use Signal as your standard SMS app on Android and it will send either a Signal message or a SMS to a contact, depending on whether said contact has Signal installed. It's not like this is some amazing feature only Apple have thought about.

Click to shrink...

No, but if you live in a country that has a lot of iPhones, the feature carries a lot more value to it.

Here in Sweden, like 75% of my social sphere (and 100% of my company due to policy) use iPhones. This makes iMessage the clear choice.

I don't know anyone using Signal.

 

[Deleted member 6582]

It's still not as elegant as iMessage though. The one thing that kills all these other apps is it doesn't fall back on SMS/MMS. That fact alone makes iMessage better from an iOS user's perspective. There's no need to think or wonder who is using what; it just works and it figures out how to contact the person in the background.

Click to shrink...

That's because Apple won't let any other app send SMS. It's monopoly bullshit and honestly there should be lawsuits over it.

 

[Irminsul]

I don't know anyone using Signal.

Click to shrink...

That's kind of my point. I have about three contacts using Signal.

Everyone else is just on WhatsApp. If being able to send SMS was such a killer feature, this would probably look different, wouldn't it?

 

[Vilix]

That's because Apple won't let any other app send SMS. It's monopoly bullshit and honestly there should be lawsuits over it.

Click to shrink...

Do you have to allow WhatsApp access to your contacts in order for it to work?

 

[Deleted member 8860]

That's because Apple won't let any other app send SMS. It's monopoly bullshit and honestly there should be lawsuits over it.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't work on Android either. Just tried it with WhatsApp on a Pixel 3a.

 

[Vilix]

It doesn't work on Android either. Just tried it with WhatsApp on a Pixel 3a.

Click to shrink...

I tried looking up if WhatsApp can communicate between sms or iMessage. Couldn't find a direct answer.

 

[Darknight]

I tried looking up if WhatsApp can communicate between sms or iMessage. Couldn't find a direct answer.

Click to shrink...

It can't.

 

[MajesticSoup]

Facebook is a unique program that there really isn't a replacement for readily installed on the phone. And older people don't use Facebook messenger, they post directly to someone's time-line.

Instagram is a unique program that there really isn't a replacement for readily installed on the phone.

Everyone's phone already has a messaging app installed to it. A messaging app that works with everyone. People don't want to switch between different messaging apps to text people.

Click to shrink...

Except they do. Americans may not be using WhatsApp, but group chat apps are popular. How many fantasy football leagues communicate via sms/mms groups? That's just a headache.