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US Department of Defense confirms it targeted/killed Qasem Soleimani, commander of Iran's Quds Force, outside Baghdad Airport

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Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,550
FIN

 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
Shout out to the guy earlier in the thread who said that defense contractors don't have any real effect on war mongering in this country.
Corporate media does their jobs while pretending to be foe resistance. This is exactly why, Trump's pathetic calls against the media aside, they are not your friend. They will happily spin if it means getting paid. And that means all the fake rhetoric they do against progressives as well, who have been warning against this sort of thing for a long time. Phil Donahue would back me up
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
Its time for America to realize how corporate media has a major hand in attempting to shape public opinion towards the imperalist neoliberal garbage we've been saddled with in the GOP and Democratic parties.

There are literally a handful of people in a position of power who have not drunk the kool aid.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,710
Kitchener, ON
Of fucking course

Fucking capitalism
I am forever mystified why people don't protest outside of these complicit media outlets and call them out for aiding and betting America's corrupt war machine. These people are the ENEMY. You've allowed the Republicans to distort the truth by pretending that Western media outlets are against them and their interests when that couldn't be further from the truth.
 

Kay

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
915
I am forever mystified why people don't protest outside of these complicit media outlets and call them out for aiding and betting America's corrupt war machine.
I think it's really only with the advent of the internet that people in mass have started to realise that the mass-media news networks does not work for anything but profit.

Of course, people knew about it earlier, but the mask slips more and more as neoliberalism hits up against its ceiling.
 

Alzarius23

Member
Oct 30, 2017
533
I think all the talk about withdrawal is to muddy the water and make confusion before attacking Iran. B-52s are also there for carpet bombing after the first round of stealthy attacks and cruise missiles.

Edit: if I'm not wrong, US is also transferring amphibious landing forces to the middle east.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,035
Arkansas, USA
I think it's really only with the advent of the internet that people in mass have started to realise that the mass-media news networks does not work for anything but profit.

Of course, people knew about it earlier, but the mask slips more and more as neoliberalism hits up against its ceiling.
The US media started the Spanish-American war, they've been at this for over a century.
 
OP
OP
poklane

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
the Netherlands
Department of Defense Press Secretary:

There has been no change in US policy with regard to our force presence in Iraq. We continue to consult with the Iraqi government regarding the defeat-ISIS mission and efforts to support the Iraqi Security Forces. We remain committed to the D-ISIS coalition and ensuring a safe, secure, and prosperous future for the Iraqi people.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
Iraq : "Please leave"

America "No, this is our country now"

Also just off topic, love seeing actual progressive celebrities crush Neoliberal trash

 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,665
Michigan
Iraq : "Please leave"

America "No, this is our country now"

Also just off topic, love seeing actual progressive celebrities crush Neoliberal trash

I mean, did voters really reject their ideology when Trump explicitly stated that he wants to steal Middle Eastern oil and will go after not just suspected terrorists but their friends and families as well? If anything, it means voters do want that ideology, just explicitly and at its most psychotically extreme.
 

Caspah

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,631
Graveyard in Boston

Great. How long until the UN decides that NYC isn't the best place for their hub considering we might act like this and bar global diplomats.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,188
Great. How long until the UN decides that NYC isn't the best place for their hub considering we might act like this and bar global diplomats.
It's maybe for his own protection, they know they might not be able to prevent Trump from deciding to arrest or kill him ownce he got there.
 

Addie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
D.C.
It's not too controversial that, under domestic law, the Executive branch can claim precedent from previous OLC opinions to justify the strike as an exercise of POTUS' Article II powers. It's understood that nearly all Executive branch lawyers (and Johnson was the DoD General Counsel at one point) argue for an expansive interpretation of the Executive's Article II powers. It's also understood that Congress has consistently abdicated its position on these matters for decades.

Johnson's position has nothing to do with his employment by Lockheed, but because his office authored some of these OLC opinions which the Executive branch is or will claim as precedent. I'm not discounting some self-serving aspect, but if you asked Happy Retired Grandfather Jeh Johnson vice Lockheed Board Member Jeh Johnson, you'd get the same answer.

I think this interpretation is wrong, but it's a domestic/constitutional question... and what's completely missing in most analyses is any discussion of international law, which is just as binding as domestic law. That discussion should assess the imminence of the attack and how that relates to the inherent right of self-defense under the U.N. Charter.

Of course, the Administration's justification, and presumably the analysis, is classified. But Pompeo has already told several versions of the story, and that contradicts DoD press releases.

The Constitution is NOT the only "law of the land" -- treaties are too, like the Charter.

(See more by Oona Hathaway: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/soleimani-strike-law/604417/.)

Incidentally, I'm 100% within your camp on this one. Just for different reasons.
 

Noodle

Member
Aug 22, 2018
1,674
The letter is a poorly worded draft, US is NOT withdrawing
"We respect your sovereign decision to order our departure" seems very clear in its meaning.


The block violates the terms of a 1947 headquarters agreement requiring Washington to permit foreign officials into the country to conduct UN business
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
It's not too controversial that, under domestic law, the Executive branch can claim precedent from previous OLC opinions to justify the strike as an exercise of POTUS' Article II powers. It's understood that nearly all Executive branch lawyers (and Johnson was the DoD General Counsel at one point) argue for an expansive interpretation of the Executive's Article II powers. It's also understood that Congress has consistently abdicated its position on these matters for decades.

Johnson's position has nothing to do with his employment by Lockheed, but because his office authored some of these OLC opinions which the Executive branch is or will claim as precedent. I'm not discounting some self-serving aspect, but if you asked Happy Retired Grandfather Jeh Johnson vice Lockheed Board Member Jeh Johnson, you'd get the same answer.

I think this interpretation is wrong, but it's a domestic/constitutional question... and what's completely missing in most analyses is any discussion of international law, which is just as binding as domestic law. That discussion should assess the imminence of the attack and how that relates to the inherent right of self-defense under the U.N. Charter.

Of course, the Administration's justification, and presumably the analysis, is classified. But Pompeo has already told several versions of the story, and that contradicts DoD press releases.

The Constitution is NOT the only "law of the land" -- treaties are too, like the Charter.

(See more by Oona Hathaway: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/soleimani-strike-law/604417/.)

Incidentally, I'm 100% within your camp on this one. Just for different reasons.
The problem of course is that yes...the strike was illegal outside of America, like all the other strikes without congressional approval being illegal. Yes congress has abdicated its duty and the White house has taken full advantage..that's the problem. That doesnt say anything about how illegal or legal it is. The strike was absolutely an illegal act under international law at the least. But so has a ton of other USA foreign policy actions..

In addition....saying that 'of course executive branch lawyers will say executive branch can do whatever they want' isnt...comforting at all, and doesnt take away from the other point in that there was no disclosure whatsoever in the fact that this person was on the board of a major weapons manufacturer by the media before they trot him out as a credible source. Which YES, will absolutely influence his voice and opinions.
 

Addie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
D.C.
The problem of course is that yes...the strike was illegal outside of America, like all the other strikes without congressional approval being illegal. Yes congress has abdicated its duty and the White house has taken full advantage..that's the problem. That doesnt say anything about how illegal or legal it is. The strike was absolutely an illegal act under international law at the least. But so has a ton of other USA foreign policy actions..

In addition....saying that 'of course executive branch lawyers will say executive branch can do whatever they want' isnt...comforting at all, and doesnt take away from the other point in that there was no disclosure whatsoever in the fact that this person was on the board of a major weapons manufacturer by the media before they trot him out as a credible source. Which YES, will absolutely influence his voice and opinions.
For once, you're getting no argument from me on anything.

My biggest point is that for far too long all aspects of the U.S. government have ignored treaties and customary international law -- which is what they train military personnel on -- and only talked about the Constitution. The Constitution is not the only thing that matters. It is on equal footing with the others.

Incidentally, the strike itself bothers me less than: (1) the lack of strategy involved (since it may have been technically legal but horrifically stupid), (2) the lack of any recognizable national security decision-making process, and (3) the subsequent public announcement that the U.S. is considering committing unambiguous war crimes, like attacking civilian cultural sites or engaging in acts that cause "disproportionate" harm (which necessarily means they're not targeting solely military sites).
 

kess

Member
Oct 27, 2017
819
The aide who concocted the drone killing option probably sold Trump on the idea of using B-52s because they're run on Steam Power or something.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
For once, you're getting no argument from me on anything.

My biggest point is that for far too long all aspects of the U.S. government have ignored treaties and customary international law -- which is what they train military personnel on -- and only talked about the Constitution. The Constitution is not the only thing that matters. It is on equal footing with the others.

Incidentally, the strike itself bothers me less than: (1) the lack of strategy involved (since it may have been technically legal but horrifically stupid), (2) the lack of any recognizable national security decision-making process, and (3) the subsequent public announcement that the U.S. is considering committing unambiguous war crimes, like attacking civilian cultural sites or engaging in acts that cause "disproportionate" harm (which necessarily means they're not targeting solely military sites).
the strike itself bad on its own. To think one of the excuses is "payback" for Iraqis protesting at the US embassy for blowing up sunni forces...the ones who were just helping us defeat ISIS. That'll teach those guys. Yeah plenty of those people historically have blood on their hands, but no less than any of the suits in Washington i say.
 

Addie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
D.C.
the strike itself bad on its own. To think one of the excuses is "payback" for Iraqis protesting at the US embassy for blowing up sunni forces...the ones who were just helping us defeat ISIS. That'll teach those guys. Yeah plenty of those people historically have blood on their hands, but no less than any of the suits in Washington i say.
I am in no way excusing Soleimani; I think the world is better off without him, in a vacuum. Like if he had died in his sleep of old age. But 99% of people who cheered his killing didn't know who he was last week, and of those 99%, I bet all of them didn't realize he was organizing anti-ISIS militias as of late...
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
I am in no way excusing Soleimani; I think the world is better off without him, in a vacuum. Like if he had died in his sleep of old age. But 99% of people who cheered his killing didn't know who he was last week, and of those 99%, I bet all of them didn't realize he was organizing anti-ISIS militias as of late...
Your misunderstanding. im saying the strike should not have happend and served no real purpose, especially in the face of the danger the stike has opened up.
 

Addie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
D.C.
Wait, so what are you saying, your saying you agree with me?
I do. And I know, I was shocked too!

My position is that the strike should not have happened and served no good purpose, and in fact we don't even know what kind of blowback we're dealing with now (let alone the blowback innocent Iraqis may face, to say the least). I am not mourning Soleimani's death by any means. If he had died in his sleep from old age, I think it would have been a good outcome.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
I do. And I know, I was shocked too!

My position is that the strike should not have happened and served no good purpose, and in fact we don't even know what kind of blowback we're dealing with now (let alone the blowback innocent Iraqis may face, to say the least). I am not mourning Soleimani's death by any means. If he had died in his sleep from old age, I think it would have been a good outcome.
cool cool. definitely. but we're in uncharted waters
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
When Trump mentioned the end of 52 cultural sites TWICE, he probably meant all the McDonald’s in Tehran, cause that is the extent of his “culture”.
 

Addie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
D.C.
cool cool. definitely. but we're in uncharted waters
Which is why, thus far, only a handful of candidates have offered up the kind of measured response I'd want. Others may have issued more statements since the weekend when I looked, but at the time, it was just Bernie, Booker, and Yang. Only Yang called for the immediate repeal of the 2001 AUMFs; Bernie was more emphatic about saying what needed to be said.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,676
New Jersey
He wasnt a good person. We can acknowledge that while knowing it was a bad idea to kill him.
He was a nuanced character who helped us defeat ISIS....and was supposedly on a peace deal between saudis and iraq...which is not the devil. He had tons of blood on his hands, but you can probably say the same about any politician in the US....

Again...that's the problem...because the media intentionally does not even trace the history of the attack...which is the US just attackin the sunnis who were against ISIS when its the wahhabists who actually carry out terrorism against the US...which then caused the protests at the embassy which trump supposedly then saw and flew off the handle about
 

Prine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,217
Just read about Trump's threat to demolish cultural site's in Iran, these are human accomplishments that go back to 6th century BC, Iran is home to one of the most impressive civilizations in the world, I'm devastated by the mere mention of this threat, the world really need to start to stand up against this twerp, to even consider removing these sites shows how dangerous he can be.
 

DrewFu

Banned
Apr 19, 2018
8,478
Now even Lindsey Graham is shitting on Trump's dumb ass.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, a Republican from South Carolina, said he has concerns with President Trump saying Iranian sites should be targeted.

Graham, a close ally of the President, said he expressed his concerns to Trump today.

"Putting cultural sites on the table as a military target, I think, undercuts what we're trying to do," the lawmaker said.
Graham added: "The bottom line is I think the President saying, 'We will hit you hard' is the right message. Cultural sites is not hitting them hard — it's creating more problems. We're trying to show solidarity with the Iranian people. Their culture is not my problem."
 
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mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
771
He wasnt a good person. We can acknowledge that while knowing it was a bad idea to kill him.
This is mostly it. The dude was a piece of shit with the blood of innocents on his hands, but so is anyone in a similar position of government in a country that's trying to influence global affairs. We have tons of American citizens from government positions just as shitty of people as this guy. And really, I think the big thing to me is that it's not like what Iran is doing is unique, the Soviet decision makers who decided to arm the Vietcong against us had American blood on their hands and we didn't assassinate them, likewise the USSR did not assassinate the Americans behind training and arming the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion despite them having the blood of Soviet soldiers on their hands.

I look at it similar to spying, we're all spying on each other and it's a dangerous game with real consequences but rarely would it escalate because there is that understanding that we're doing the same to them.

I guess a country at some point can declare they're not playing some game and go after the puppet masters I just really hate the false indignation of their actions as if we're not doing the same shit. And the hypocrisy of that stance is insane to me. To demand we can hide behind our chosen faction's forces while demanding the other party can not, it's not just hypocritical, it's cowardly.
 
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