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RustyNails

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Upcoming Mueller dates to watch:
Dec 4: Flynn gov't sentencing memo due
Dec 5(?): Cohen gov't sentencing memo due (SDNY)
Dec 7: Manafort gov't sentencing memo due
Dec 12: Cohen sentencing
Dec 14: Mystery appellant hearing (closed session, very likely we'll learn nothing)
Dec 18: Flynn sentencing
Secret of the Mana finally revealed on Friday.

By the way those who played the games, what was really the secret of Mana?
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,373
I'm afraid Democrats are going to, once again, over-learn the lessons of their losing elections. It's pretty common when a party suffers a big loss, like in 2016, that they swing too far in the opposite direction to course correct and over-do it. Hillary very nearly won in 2016, so I'm nervous about making drastic changes to compensate for what was very nearly a win, and ending up with a candidate that's even further from where we want.

Basically, just because Hillary Clinton was physically incapable of sweating doesn't mean we should nominate the sweatiest man in America. Let's not be drastic.

I'm not worried about the Democrats nominating Marco Rubio.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,488
The emmoluents stuff is today, also.

Also, I wonder if the bullshit occuring in NC, WI, and MI are just a prelude to the fuckery that will happen if/when Trump loses in 2020.
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
12,613
The emmoluents stuff is today, also.

Also, I wonder if the bullshit occuring in NC, WI, and MI are just a prelude to the fuckery that will happen if/when Trump loses in 2020.
Hope it drops soon.

I don't want to imagine all the crap they will pull. Just thinking about it puts me in a bad mood.

ps: ot really hates AOC. Hmm...
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
Not surprised, but embarrassed that the Red Sox are going to visit Cheeto.

Boston y'all
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996
The emmoluents stuff is today, also.

Also, I wonder if the bullshit occuring in NC, WI, and MI are just a prelude to the fuckery that will happen if/when Trump loses in 2020.

Federally, there will probably be a lot of BS with last-minute executive orders, judicial appointments rammed through, and pardons in the lame duck if that happens, but with the Dems controlling the House Trump can't pass any laws.

I could see one of these gerrymandered states like Wisconsin crying fraud and trying to send 2 sets of EC delegates to throw the election into the House if the outcome is really close.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,401
I'm reading up on the NYT Manafort/Assange/Ecuador story... and wikileaks seems really pressed to point out that this version of events is true, but not the Guardian story.



 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,246
Odds that Flynn's sentencing is going to reveal that Trump told him to reach out to Russia?
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,401
Odds that Flynn's sentencing is going to reveal that Trump told him to reach out to Russia?

You mean individual 1?

I think details will emerge over the next month or so that the "back channel" that everyone is looking for was Kislyak himself... which puts Trump in the room with the guy having a few yucks days after he fired the FBI director.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
2-week stopgap spending bill agreed on, but chuck and nancy to meet with pres next week to "negotiate". Did Manchin's dinner with Don help?
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,210
Treadeau's long stare straight ahead after having to indicate to Trump "We all get a copy" is probably the clearest indicator I've seen yet that no world leaders respect the US President.

Meh, seems more like he's giving face for the photo op more than anything else really.

Wow, that AOC thread is something, lol. Maybe some will stop asking for off-the-cup twitter witticisms of their politicians instead of them researching actual policy issues. Though, I suppose when your criteria for who you get excited over in an election is basically just that they be under 40 with no actual experience in anything, that is to be expected.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,601
This anecdote is from the 2012 cycle, but I think given his loss this year I think it highlights that Bill Nelson's instincts when it comes to Hispanic voters in Florida are bad:

In late 2011, as Nelson was preparing for his first Senate reelection campaign, then-Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid warned him to pay more attention to Hispanics back home. A top Reid aide from Miami, Jose Parra, recalls telling Nelson about a slew of Hispanic journalists in Florida who had complained they were being ignored. "Look, I've got a lot of media markets to deal with," Nelson told Parra. "And frankly, I don't think I'm going to get the Cuban vote."

Parra was stunned. Florida is the ultimate 50-50 swing state, and he assumed any seasoned politician would know the key to winning here is managing margins. Yes, Parra told Nelson, most Cubans are Republicans, but if you work hard you might get 40 percent of them, like Bill Clinton did, and that could be the difference between winning and losing. What was even more surprising was Nelson's apparent belief that "Hispanics" meant "Cubans," when only about a third of the state's Hispanics are of Cuban origin. "You've also got Puerto Ricans, Ecuadorans, Colombians—those votes add up!" Parra said.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/12/04/democrats-hispanic-voters-2020-222751
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
Wow, that AOC thread is something, lol. Maybe some will stop asking for off-the-cup twitter witticisms of their politicians instead of them researching actual policy issues. Though, I suppose when your criteria for who you get excited over in an election is basically just that they be under 40 with no actual experience in anything, that is to be expected.
So what's Pelosi's excuse?

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/nancy-pelosi/

AOC isn't a policy wonk that fully researches every statement she makes. It'd be great if we were led by politicians that did do that. But the truth is that it's not just Trump and it's not just republicans — most politicians share AOC's lack of policy expertise and infallibility.

But it's clear why some people tend toward selective criticism to undermine AOC.
 

Box of Kittens

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,018
This came up elsewhere so I looked it up and, unless I missed something, Bruce Rauner's share of the vote in November was the lowest in a general election for an incumbent governor who lost re-election since 1990 (Edward DiPrete of Rhode Island, who got an astoundingly low 25.8% of the vote), which really shows the magnitude of Rauner's failures both from a governing perspective and a political perspective. It's hard to take down an incumbent governor.

For the purpose of this question, I only looked at general elections. There were a few governors who lost re-nomination since then (hold your head high Bruce, your 3 point primary victory against an unelectable opponent saved you from joining that dubious list). This also excludes the case of Buddy Roemer in Louisiana, who finished third in the state's jungle primary in 1991 behind former governor Edwin Edwards and David Duke. I also only looked at incumbents who lost, so it's possible there's a governor who got re-elected with a lower share in a split field during that time. Again if we're just looking at incumbents who lost in a general election you have to go back to 1994 just to find another (Bruce King of New Mexico) who failed to get 40% of the vote.
 

RustyNails

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Indictments for fiduciary breaches of conduct surrounding the eight mana spirits protection of Yggdrasil, the world tree.
this is good.

Also when Mueller finally indicts Roger Stone, will the cacophany of "where's the collusion??" cries end? Because that is collusion.
 

RustyNails

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Also not liking the redesign. Clutered, disorganized and broken. It's nice to want things but another to implement them. It's the equivalent of electing Bernie Sanders.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,985
So Trump is all giddy about his awesome new deal with China the other day and then says today that MAYBE a deal will happen. God what a nightmare this man is.

Plus his tweet about being super excited to show off the WH to Laura Bush is beyond tasteless.
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,210
So what's Pelosi's excuse?

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/nancy-pelosi/

AOC isn't a policy wonk that fully researches every statement she makes. It'd be great if we were led by politicians that did do that. But the truth is that it's not just Trump and it's not just republicans — most politicians share AOC's lack of policy expertise and infallibility.

But it's clear why some people tend toward selective criticism to undermine AOC.

Someone in that other thread had it right. AOC's standing right now is built around her rhetoric and her social media presence rather than any actual kind of record of enacting policy or governing. If she starts routinely shooting out demonstrably wrong tweets then that will damage her more than someone with an established record of progressive lawmaking going back decades.

That's why I think Pelosi gets more of a pass. Add to it that the top listed things at your politifact link are from live appearances or interviews by Pelosi where the ability to fact check yourself is more limited. AOC could have researched before tweeting from the hip, but chose not to do so or have someone vet her understanding of it. Nope, seems the most important thing was to get it out there for clicks first.

Let's be clear, the rhetorical point is fine, but if you're going to take advantage of a medium that lets your double check yourself before you undermind your own point - and you're supposed to have people around you who's job is to help you vet policy - then don't damage yourself by making unforced errors like that. She's not in a party that should be willing to overlook even gross instances of incompetence like the GOP does with Trump.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,601
Now that I've read further into that politico piece, Nelson's post-2012 instincts re: Hispanic voters sound just as bad.

Nelson had very little direct contact with those voters, because by just about all accounts, he ran a uniquely lazy campaign that made laughably ineffectual attempts to engage with Hispanics. Back in June, a POLITICO story quoted Florida Latinos warning that the three-term senator was virtually unknown in their communities after 40 years in elected office, and had no Spanish-language website or ads to fix that. By contrast, Scott campaigned relentlessly to reduce Nelson's margins among non-Cuban Hispanics, especially the Puerto Ricans who were pouring into central Florida even before Hurricane Maria. He bought ads during the World Cup this summer highlighting his commitment to Puerto Rico, before Nelson even went on the air on Spanish-language media.

What Parra remembers is that just before Senators Charles Schumer of New York and Robert Menendez of New Jersey started their presentation about immigration reform, Nelson walked out of the room.
!!
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
Dow shot up yesterday on China news, shoots down today when people realize, "fuck! He was lying!"
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
Someone in that other thread had it right. AOC's standing right now is built around her rhetoric and her social media presence rather than any actual kind of record of enacting policy or governing. If she starts routinely shooting out demonstrably wrong tweets then that will damage her more than someone with an established record of progressive lawmaking going back decades.

That's why I think Pelosi gets more of a pass. Add to it that the top listed things at your politifact link are from live appearances or interviews by Pelosi where the ability to fact check yourself is more limited. AOC could have researched before tweeting from the hip, but chose not to do so or have someone vet her understanding of it. Nope, seems the most important thing was to get it out there for clicks first.

Let's be clear, the rhetorical point is fine, but if you're going to take advantage of a medium that lets your double check yourself before you undermind your own point - and you're supposed to have people around you who's job is to help you vet policy - then don't damage yourself by making unforced errors like that. She's not in a party that should be willing to overlook even gross instances of incompetence like the GOP does with Trump.
At the end of the day, is anyone going to remember this even three days from now?
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
So what's Pelosi's excuse?

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/nancy-pelosi/

AOC isn't a policy wonk that fully researches every statement she makes. It'd be great if we were led by politicians that did do that. But the truth is that it's not just Trump and it's not just republicans — most politicians share AOC's lack of policy expertise and infallibility.

But it's clear why some people tend toward selective criticism to undermine AOC.
I think your putting her in the same breath as Pelosi - a woman who obviously understands policy well enough to pass anything through the House and has a record a mile long demonstrating her chops - is part of the problem.

AOC has done nothing yet. She has no record. She has no accomplishments besides winning a D+1000 district and building a following on social media. Every job measures success by its own internal criteria. In Congress, that means passing legislation, learning the parliamentary process, and being an effective committee member, not "exciting the youth on social media." That's not entirely her fault. She can't help when the Congress convenes! But when it does, I have no doubt she'll be a great contributor and committee member, will sponsor or co-sponsor some great bills, and will mature into an able representative.

But we're not there yet, so people need to stop making her into the second coming. And yes, if any of the other freshmen without a legislative background (actually a lot of them) made these sorts of errors, they'd deserve to be criticized, too. Just because Trump and the GOP have no standards doesn't mean we shouldn't.

It's okay to start from the bottom and get better.

However, we're encountering a problem in which

"Conservative media attack her because she's a young woman of color and they hate her and are scared of her"

and

"Progressives are making her into something she's not and twist themselves to rationalize her mistakes instead of just admitting she's a little green and needs to grow"

are both true.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Now that I've read further into that politico piece, Nelson's post-2012 instincts re: Hispanic voters sound just as bad.




!!
Damn, okay, Nelson sucks.

Like I was annoyed when people blasted him for not matching Scott dollar for dollar (Scott being a billionaire who buys his seats) but this is absurdly tone deaf.
 
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