US PoliERA 2018 |OT6| An Unmitigated Disaster

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Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,661
Any city is free to accept or reject what they deem is in their interest or not, and businesses are free to seek what best fits their interests. At the end of the day don't elect idiots to government and the city won't screw itself.
Yeah, Seattle was really terrible to Jeff Bezos, that's why he has no money.

p.s.
Though personally, good riddance, fuck Amazon and fuck Bezos, I would be very happy if they take HQ1 with them and leave.
 

Iolo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,637
Britain
Fox News poll has been addressed but just wanted to remind, they had Doug Jones up 10 when others had him down 10. He squeaked by. So again, accurate reporting aside, throw it on the pile.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
I'm not sure I follow, but Amazon didn't decide to built it's 2nd HQ outside Seattle because housing became too expensive, like Bezos would give a shit about any of that. They left because Seattle wasn't "business friendly" enough and that motherfucker know he can find cities that would bend over backward for them even more than Seattle did (and it did quite a bit).
My understanding that was pretty much the biggest part of the "business friendly" issue for them. Rent prices have actually dropped with the increase in apartment construction that started a year or two back, but overall prices are still 160% of what they were a decade ago in Seattle. This article is what I was generally seeing- that it wasn't just the high prices, it was a belief that Seattle was politically stalled and tapped out when it came to both housing stock and office stock and wasn't going to get better anytime soon. Housing costs not the only factor but a symptom of a larger core issue. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/29/technology/amazon-hq2-seattle.html
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,661
My understanding that was pretty much the biggest part of the "business friendly" issue for them. Rent prices have actually dropped with the increase in apartment construction that started a year or two back, but overall prices are still 160% of what they were a decade ago in Seattle. This article is what I was generally seeing- that it wasn't just the high prices, it was a belief that Seattle was politically stalled and tapped out when it came to both housing stock and office stock and wasn't going to get better anytime soon. Housing costs not the only factor but a symptom of a larger core issue. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/29/technology/amazon-hq2-seattle.html
I never bought that argument. People who work in Amazon HQ generally can afford Seattle prices, plus they keep moving their offices into more and more expensive part of the city, so I'm not really buying the idea that Bezos is all that concerned about how much rent his employees pay. I mean, in their HQ2 finalist list have with higher rent (and cost of living) than Seattle.
I honestly think they just say that shit because saying "you're too liberal and we're worried you're gonna raise our taxes or help efforts to unionize our workforce" would not play too well.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
I never bought that argument. People who work in Amazon HQ generally can afford Seattle prices, plus they keep moving their offices into more and more expensive part of the city, so I'm not really buying the idea that Bezos is all that concerned about how much rent his employees pay. I mean, in their HQ2 finalist list have with higher rent (and cost of living) than Seattle.
I honestly think they just say that shit because saying "you're too liberal and we're worried you're gonna raise our taxes or help efforts to unionize our workforce" would not play too well.
The "we're worried we don't have enough office space available for the next X years of expansion" side makes much more sense to me as something that would push them out, with the other stuff being marginal.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
My understanding was that sticky wages was a downward phenomenon, in the sense that you almost never see wages drop in a recession, which is what screws up Saysian economics because suddenly all labor is overvalued and massive layoffs happen, instead of what would be "natural" which is labor taking the same haircut that capital takes in a downturn.
It was just a one-off that made sense in my head, but I've only ever read about sticky wages being downward, too, so I'm unsure why I went there.

What if firms don't feel comfortable raising wages for whatever reason, in real or nominal terms? On the micro level, they might just not think they can bear it (or maybe the boss is lining his pockets), or perhaps the economy is not doing nearly as well as the Redcap host claims it is. Then it becomes a whole different question.

Kirblar, I've thought exercised myself into a corner, do you mind? Why couldn't wages be upward sticky in the case of the exact opposite of market indicators as would cause downward sticky wages? I don't think I've read compelling evidence for why they couldn't be, given the right indicators, but I never really gave it that much thought, either.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
My understanding was that sticky wages was a downward phenomenon, in the sense that you almost never see wages drop in a recession, which is what screws up Saysian economics because suddenly all labor is overvalued and massive layoffs happen, instead of what would be "natural" which is labor taking the same haircut that capital takes in a downturn.
Tell that to the fuckstick Big 4 accounting firm I had signed with before graduating college (graduated 2009, offer was in 2008). They sent a letter some months later lowering my starting salary by $4k and I had to take it like a bitch. Their justification is that due to the recession, they didn't give any raises to the first years and it wouldn't be fair to the first years to be making the same amount as us. Of course they were just trying to save money even though they were probably landing bigger profits anyway.

I ended up quitting a few months in and went to a smaller firm with people who weren't psychopathic assholes AND with a higher salary.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
It was just a one-off that made sense in my head, but I've only ever read about sticky wages being downward, too, so I'm unsure why I went there.

What if firms don't feel comfortable raising wages for whatever reason, in real or nominal terms? On the micro level, they might just not think they can bear it (or maybe the boss is lining his pockets), or perhaps the economy is not doing nearly as well as the Redcap host claims it is. Then it becomes a whole different question.

Kirblar, I've thought exercised myself into a corner, do you mind? Why couldn't wages be upward sticky in the case of the exact opposite of market indicators as would cause downward sticky wages? I don't think I've read compelling evidence for why they couldn't be, given the right indicators, but I never really gave it that much thought, either.
Wages are slow to rise, it's a gradual thing. Employers are individually sticky and don't want to raise hiring rates unless they need to.

The stickiness is unique to a recession mostly because employees also generally aren't willing to accept pay cuts, even if they're fired and having trouble finding work.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Wages are slow to rise, it's a gradual thing. Employers are individually sticky and don't want to raise hiring rates unless they need to.

The stickiness is unique to a recession mostly because employees also generally aren't willing to accept pay cuts, even if they're fired and having trouble finding work.
Okay, that's what I thought. So I was just blurring some concepts together like the passage of time in the last 20 years since Trump was elected.
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,337
The ruling party of law and order, the ones holding the keys to the greatest military might on planet earth, spending hundreds of billions annually on the latest counter offensive technology....

...brought to their knees by a gang of street thugs.

Cowardice and lack of faith in the institutions built to deal with this. Such fear. Such powerlessness. There is no hope!!

(I know it’s all politicized nonsense, but still)
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,874
Given the number of people who have actually been impacted by ms-13 in this country, I can't imagine his boy who cried wolf routine is having the desired effect. But as always with this admin, I could be wrong!
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,178
I live in a city and I saw a guy poop out drugs yesterday (legit) so I think I am becoming a Republican now.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
No one really knew who ms-13 was before Trump. He is their best recruitment tool.
My area did, they were really big here pre-Great Recession and in the news constantly. Along with other stories about people being annoyed by massive continuous pickup soccer games out in the exurbs. Then like pretty much everything else involving undocumented people from Central/South America, the housing market collapsing collapsed their numbers. Now they're only in the news like once or twice a year when an idiot HS kid gets involved with them and gets themselves killed.

edit: Noah Smith had a post 2 days ago about Trump being decades out of date in what he sees as America's "problems" that this falls right under https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...tackles-problems-in-the-u-s-s-rearview-mirror
 
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Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Given the number of people who have actually been impacted by ms-13 in this country, I can't imagine his boy who cried wolf routine is having the desired effect. But as always with this admin, I could be wrong!
The desired effect is to stoke fear, fear is what drove people to vote for him, fear is what he hopes will cause them to vote for Republicans.

But seething hatred is stronger than fear. That dark place we all go to when we think about what we'd do given five minutes alone in a room with these fascists, were there no consequences, sustains us.

First it will be the midterms, and we will sweep them handily under the rug and unleash a hell of investigations the likes of which have never been seen before and may never be seen again. The governorships we take will finally sunder their grasping at constitutional conventions, and flipping statehouses would secure the rights of the most downtrodden.

And then we will send this two-bit Mussolini reject on his way in 2020 if we can't remove him before then.

All they have is fear.
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,874
The desired effect is to stoke fear, fear is what drove people to vote for him, fear is what he hopes will cause them to vote for Republicans.

But seething hatred is stronger than fear. That dark place we all go to when we think about what we'd do given five minutes alone in a room with these fascists, were there no consequences, sustains us.

First it will be the midterms, and we will sweep them handily under the rug and unleash a hell of investigations the likes of which have never been seen before and may never be seen again. The governorships we take will finally sunder their grasping at constitutional conventions, and flipping statehouses would secure the rights of the most downtrodden.

And then we will send this two-bit Mussolini reject on his way in 2020 if we can't remove him before then.

All they have is fear.
The desire is to provoke fear, but when no one sees any actual news about ms-13, they will assume he is lying. Except for his base, and they are already lost.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
Surprising counter-intuitive finding of the day. On marginal cases (where a judge could reasonably imprison someone or give them a fine/parole/etc) in Colombia, having a parent imprisoned actually ended with their kids spending a longer time in school on average. Not at all what I would have expected. Though the stronger effect of removing parents convicted of violent crimes from the house being a positive one isn't surprising at all.

 

Wilsongt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,841
The desired effect is to stoke fear, fear is what drove people to vote for him, fear is what he hopes will cause them to vote for Republicans.

But seething hatred is stronger than fear. That dark place we all go to when we think about what we'd do given five minutes alone in a room with these fascists, were there no consequences, sustains us.

First it will be the midterms, and we will sweep them handily under the rug and unleash a hell of investigations the likes of which have never been seen before and may never be seen again. The governorships we take will finally sunder their grasping at constitutional conventions, and flipping statehouses would secure the rights of the most downtrodden.

And then we will send this two-bit Mussolini reject on his way in 2020 if we can't remove him before then.

All they have is fear.
We can do investigation, but then Republicans will take a note from the Democrats Playbook and OBSTRUCT the investigations.

Kappa Face
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,696
Minneapolis
Warren would make such a badass president.

I just worry too much about right-wing character assassination taking her down in a general election.

Generally I agree with the "fuck what the right thinks" take, but the 30-year smear campaign against Clinton made it less about what the right thinks and more about what the center (and even some on the left) think. At least with Warren there's way less time for that stuff to stick, I'm just not sure how much she could withstand.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,251
Calling Maxine intellectually disabled should result in some consequence. Beyond disgusting.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
That Wataburger thread has me fucking fuming. Never before on this site have I seen such flagrant displays of trolling, mostly by obvious alts. I thought we were supposed to be better than this.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
Warren would make such a badass president.

I just worry too much about right-wing character assassination taking her down in a general election.

Generally I agree with the "fuck what the right thinks" take, but the 30-year smear campaign against Clinton made it less about what the right thinks and more about what the center (and even some on the left) think. At least with Warren there's way less time for that stuff to stick, I'm just not sure how much she could withstand.
She has a lot of the same issues Hillary does- both with the smear targeting and also with not having the natural charisma/political instincts to be able to deal with that crap. If Warren had jumped in during 2016 my vote between her and Hillary would have been very tough (I don't know which way I would have gone) in part because their negatives were pretty much identical, w/ very different positives.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
That Wataburger thread has me fucking fuming. Never before on this site have I seen such flagrant displays of trolling, mostly by obvious alts. I thought we were supposed to be better than this.
See, the problem here is that you have faith in humanity. Our entire economic system revolves around having the least possible faith in humanity, and it turns out we need to go past the zero lower bound on faith in humanity to make it work the best.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,745
That Wataburger thread has me fucking fuming. Never before on this site have I seen such flagrant displays of trolling, mostly by obvious alts. I thought we were supposed to be better than this.
There are a lot of dormant burner accounts from the launch period being activated lately. It's gonna get even worse going into election season.

The system on ERA is much better about catching long term problems, but allowing burners to keep coming back instead of having them be bugsquashed has been an unintended side effect of the moderation changes from the old place.
 
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