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Oct 27, 2017
17,973
The whole "well-spoken" or "articulate" thing is one of my major pet peeves. White people think they're giving me a complement, but it's patronizing (and unintentionally racist) as f*ck. And of course I get it on the other end as well when I'm around certain black people who tell me, "you talk white". As if speaking with mostly proper grammar is the sole domain of white people. Let's just keep ostracizing intellectualism in the black community.

FML

Thank god, I rarely get that nonsense in Southern California.
It's even worse considering Booker and Bloomberg were mayors of cities practically right next to each other geographically, at the same time. There's more knowledge and familiarity there than just an air of "casual observation of the candidate roster". Bloomberg won't show up at the debate, but all Booker would have to do is summon his snow emergency record vs. Bloomberg's.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
"Well-spoken" needs to be retired, regardless of the colour of the person being talked about. It's not so much racist as classist, asssuming as it does that regional accents and non-standardised English grammar and vocabulary is a negative, and that The Queen's English and Received Pronunciation (and the American equivalents there-of) make someone "better". It's effing English, man - go to any part of the UK and you can find someone who is incredibly intelligent, but uses syntax in a way that is conceivably "not well spoken".

Even the Wiki entry and dictionary definition for RP acknowledges it's classist as fuck:

Received Pronunciation (RP), commonly called BBC English and Standard British pronunciation or Southern British pronunciation,[1] is an accent of Standard English in the United Kingdom and is defined in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary as "the standard accent of English as spoken in the south of England"

The south of England being the most affluent part of the country for hundreds of years.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
He's talking about wealthy donors INFLUENCING politicians. Which he absolutely has a point on. Bernard sucks but he doesn't let donors influence his platform.

bernie relies on individual voters who have to believe in him-personally over policy so while that's a tiny fraction of the problem with pacs abd black money, it's still a paean to a bloc and should at least be considered.

Yang has a worse and weirder version of that. Both things are still better than the NRA or Russian laundering or ATT merger or WLl Street money but they have a drag on his ability to make policy or campaign decisions.

Trump has made me way more concerned about personality cults and movements.
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,093
The whole "well-spoken" or "articulate" thing is one of my major pet peeves. White people think they're giving me a complement, but it's patronizing (and unintentionally racist) as f*ck. And of course I get it on the other end as well when I'm around certain black people who tell me, "you talk white". As if speaking with mostly proper grammar is the sole domain of white people. Let's just keep ostracizing intellectualism in the black community.

FML

Thank god, I rarely get that nonsense in Southern California.

I've gotten the "you talk so White" from both Black and White people. Shit drives me up a wall. The dumbest of "compliments" :/
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
bernie relies on individual voters who have to believe in him-personally over policy so while that's a tiny fraction of the problem with pacs abd black money, it's still a paean to a bloc and should at least be considered.

Yang has a worse and weirder version of that. Both things are still better than the NRA or Russian laundering or ATT merger or WLl Street money but they have a drag on his ability to make policy or campaign decisions.

Trump has made me way more concerned about personality cults and movements.
Oh of course. That's a whole other can of worms.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
It's funny, if you were to have asked me prior to 2014 I would have said that Russia was at least a partial ally.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,816
"Well-spoken" needs to be retired, regardless of the colour of the person being talked about. It's not so much racist as classist, asssuming as it does that regional accents and non-standardised English grammar and vocabulary is a negative, and that The Queen's English and Received Pronunciation (and the American equivalents there-of) make someone "better". It's effing English, man - go to any part of the UK and you can find someone who is incredibly intelligent, but uses syntax in a way that is conceivably "not well spoken".

Even the Wiki entry and dictionary definition for RP acknowledges it's classist as fuck:



The south of England being the most affluent part of the country for hundreds of years.

While it may be classist in some situations, it is indeed racist (even if unintentionally) when the recipient is a black person. You gotta understand for a large portion of American history, black people were considered 3/5 of a person. So saying you're "well-spoken" to a black person just isn't a dig at their socio-economic background, it's a back-handed commentary on them as a human being. It's basically saying, it's impressive that this primitive form of a human being is able to string together coherent sentences! Kudos! And it falls in line with the old myth that black people have extra bones to further the trope of the athletically superior, intellectually inferior black sub-human.

So the whole "well-spoken" thing cuts a lot deeper than classism when it's directed at black people in America. And while certain white people in America with thick regional accents may get ostracized from time to time. The 99% of white people who just speak the regular Queen's English don't get singled out left and right for being "well-spoken." Whereas literally EVERY black person I know who speaks regular Queen's English, repeatedly encounters the same situation I do regardless of their class. So this is NOT a color blind issue.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
Both Russia and China got hammered on us as NOT allies. But mostly China. Shit half of our job was related to the SCS dispute
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
While it may be classist in some situations, it is indeed racist (even if unintentionally) when the recipient is a black person. You gotta understand for a large portion of American history, black people were considered 3/5 of a person. So saying you're "well-spoken" to a black person just isn't a dig at their socio-economic background, it's a back-handed commentary on them as a human being. It's basically saying, it's impressive that this primitive form of a human being is able to string together coherent sentences! Kudos! And it falls in line with the old myth that black people have extra bones to further the trope of the athletically superior, intellectually inferior black sub-human.

So the whole "well-spoken" thing cuts a lot deeper than classism when it's directed at black people in America. And while certain white people in America with thick regional accents may get ostracized from time to time. The 99% of white people who just speak the regular Queen's English don't get singled out left and right for being "well-spoken." Whereas literally EVERY black person I know who speaks regular Queen's English, repeatedly encounters the same situation I do regardless of their class. So this is NOT a color blind issue.

Yeah, fair enough, I definitely over-stated when saying it categorically isn't racist. Perhaps there's a difference in where we live/grew up, too? If you consider the feudal caste system was still in operation in the UK until the late 19th/early 20th century, with gentry landowners and a serfdom of workers, you get a not dissimilar situation to the one you're speaking about in America, just with white working class. A literal defining characteristic of the "well bred Englishman" was the ability to speak proper English, and that still exists today in how regional accents are viewed up and down the country.

I'll hasten to add I'm not trying to get into oppression olympics, just I suppose pointing out that the "back-handed commentary on them as a human being" has a classist aspect that was still very prominent until the 90s and early 2000s.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
"Well-spoken" needs to be retired, regardless of the colour of the person being talked about. It's not so much racist as classist, asssuming as it does that regional accents and non-standardised English grammar and vocabulary is a negative, and that The Queen's English and Received Pronunciation (and the American equivalents there-of) make someone "better". It's effing English, man - go to any part of the UK and you can find someone who is incredibly intelligent, but uses syntax in a way that is conceivably "not well spoken".

Even the Wiki entry and dictionary definition for RP acknowledges it's classist as fuck:

The south of England being the most affluent part of the country for hundreds of years.
It's more than that, """the queen's English""" is an artificial prestige accent. Like the mid-atlantic accent it was rich people who sent their kids to schools where they were taught to speak in a weird way, that way you can tell they came from money. At least that shit didn't take hold in the US. Though obviously dialects of poor people are still thought of as vulgar and a sign of low intelligence in the US, just like everywhere else.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,243
The only way we will be able to drag the GOP and Americans back on the idea that Russia is our enemy is by making them our enemy again via a conflict. That's a big elephant in the room for whoever takes command as the next president, besides Trump, what to do about the Russia problem.
 

DinosaurusRex

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,953
The only way we will be able to drag the GOP and Americans back on the idea that Russia is our enemy is by making them our enemy again via a conflict. That's a big elephant in the room for whoever takes command as the next president, besides Trump, what to do about the Russia problem.
Or convince them they meddled to help a Democrat. Don't worry if it's not true that doesn't stop them
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The only way we will be able to drag the GOP and Americans back on the idea that Russia is our enemy is by making them our enemy again via a conflict. That's a big elephant in the room for whoever takes command as the next president, besides Trump, what to do about the Russia problem.
I seriously don't think this is something anyone should be rooting for though.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,993
68 tweets from Florida Man in the last 2 days. Who the hell has the time to read those? And why does he have the time to do them? Desperately trying to fill the media to drown out his impeachment I guess.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,243
I seriously don't think this is something anyone should be rooting for though.

No, but every report that's come out from the IC and the pentagon is pretty much a bat signal that something is going to have to be done. The only thing holding back a real retaliation is Trump. The GOP knows it and its why they have jumped on board with Trump on siding with Russia because the consequences will affect their big money donors who wont be able to get those billions dollar drilling and other contracts ever again. Its why Tillerson was there. Democrats can't afford not to do anything either because Russia will be there attacking us again in 2024. Someone is going to have to put their foot down, sanctions aren't stopping the cyber war we are in.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
68 tweets from Florida Man in the last 2 days. Who the hell has the time to read those? And why does he have the time to do them? Desperately trying to fill the media to drown out his impeachment I guess.
There was an article about this. Apparently he doesn't type most of his tweets because he doesn't like people seeing him pull out his reading glasses to see the screen. So he has someone type it out after he dictates them the tweet.

So you can just imagine some guy having to sift through Trump's diatribe in order to produce tweets.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
No, but every report that's come out from the IC and the pentagon is pretty much a bat signal that something is going to have to be done. The only thing holding back a real retaliation is Trump. The GOP knows it and its why they have jumped on board with Trump on siding with Russia because the consequences will affect their big money donors who wont be able to get those billions dollar drilling and other contracts ever again. Its why Tillerson was there. Democrats can't afford not to do anything either because Russia will be there attacking us again in 2024. Someone is going to have to put their foot down, sanctions aren't stopping the cyber war we are in.
When people in the American IC starts saying that "something must be done" they usually have really bad ideas about what specifically is that something.
I don't know, I think the US needs a rational policy in regards of Russia.

I think the solution for this issue is an arm control deal. We did it with nukes, we can do it with buying political ads, or whatever behavior we want to define as out of bounds. I suspect the US wouldn't want that, but they didn't want to reduce their nuclear weapons until people started to seriously demand that. I think that's way more useful than slapping Russia with more sanctions, which is the current policy, and it hadn't stopped them from interfering in the US election, and it doesn't seem like it will deter them in the future.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
I dont know why but i spent time going down the rabbit hole reading hardlije trump supporter twitter accounts and it's just numbing

anyway, seems like a huge talking point they are the GOP will be going hard in on will be how Biden sent his son to go work for a corrupt ukraine business.

its just fucking crazy
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,741


I don't know there might be some wind to that line of attack. If she was going after his McKinsey stuff sure that could go off the rails too.... but this feels more like fair game. Especially when he is asking her for tax returns from the early 2000's.

I don't know how you can watch this and not be a little suspicious. This is Trump press secretary levels of condescending defiance without a shred of rationalization.
 

Slader166

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,320
Phoenix, AZ
As a Pete fan, he needs to work on the private donor fundraisers, the optics look bad. I'm not concerned on the fundraisers themselves though, plenty of people that have been to those events all say that there's no difference from Pete's public events.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
Pretend to not receive the question, make them repeat it and hope they get tired of asking. An official, "final" answer will likely be ready to be recited at the next debate, where it will be lost in a program that by design will limit discussion of the issue.
 
OP
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Kirblar

The argument about Centrism and Dems. My god it's tiring.

The dems on the by are center left and constantly hearing how we're Right/Centrist; especially compared to the "world" is fucking stupid. Autodidact get in there and slap them around!
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
The problem is people thinking Russia was ever our ally. Yes the Soviet Union Collapsed but that did not drastically change Russian Foreign Policy. Russian Foreign Policy has been and will continue to be Hostile to the United States and Western Europe. Russia "changed" enough to let people get their guard down but its been written on the wall and in books etc. for decades now what the end goal of Russian Global Policy is.

The Left has been just as guilty as the Right though. The Left for years downplayed the Hostility of Russia while parroting the evils of the West. I mean it wasn't that long ago Obama literally turned Question about Russian aggression into a joke
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The problem is people thinking Russia was ever our ally. Yes the Soviet Union Collapsed but that did not drastically change Russian Foreign Policy. Russian Foreign Policy has been and will continue to be Hostile to the United States and Western Europe. Russia "changed" enough to let people get their guard down but its been written on the wall and in books etc. for decades now what the end goal of Russian Global Policy is.

The Left has been just as guilty as the Right though. The Left for years downplayed the Hostility of Russia while parroting the evils of the West. I mean it wasn't that long ago Obama literally turned Question about Russian aggression into a joke
It did briefly because Yeltsin wasn't a bad dude. And then it just devolved almost immediately.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
The problem is people thinking Russia was ever our ally. Yes the Soviet Union Collapsed but that did not drastically change Russian Foreign Policy. Russian Foreign Policy has been and will continue to be Hostile to the United States and Western Europe. Russia "changed" enough to let people get their guard down but its been written on the wall and in books etc. for decades now what the end goal of Russian Global Policy is.

The Left has been just as guilty as the Right though. The Left for years downplayed the Hostility of Russia while parroting the evils of the West. I mean it wasn't that long ago Obama literally turned Question about Russian aggression into a joke

Putin just wants to restore Russia to exactly what it was before and he's succeeding. One dude wrecking the entire human race.

It was never about Communism. The Communist state was a useful tool of oligarchy. It's still about redistributing the wealth of the workers to a select few regardless of the stated goal of the state. Once enough wealth is redistributed you have to annex neighboring lands to accumulate additional wealth. You can't restore the Union without annexing Ukraine and eventually, Europe.

In that respect, mafia oligarchy has the same goal as giant corporations; massive wealth redistribution. Eventually they'll just be fighting amongst each other if the workers don't end this.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Do you have a studies that support this? Genuinely curious.
EJrOf9gXsAYsl9e.jpg:large


The "Centrist" wing is only 12%. Labor would be center left at 28% and left/socialist would be 10%.

By party

EJrOrOtXYAAL1oy.jpg:large


By Ideological lines.

EJrO1fWW4AAPJs2.jpg:large
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
To be honest, i don't think the average voter could really be classified left/right/center because they don't pay attention enough to have more than 2-3 solid policy positions and beyond that they're hooked on buzzwords and grand sentiments. You see that pretty clearly in the Pete/Warren/Blomberg voting block overlap (and the above poll's descriptor being so vague, the descriptions for the greens and labour would overlap). And that's not just a U.S. thing.

That aside, democrats are a big tent party that has politicians that range from Bernie to Manchin and several axises inbetween.

Meanwhile republicans are either super far right or super super far right whose disagreements are mostly on the degree they want to fuck people over, so by contrast everything looks like a centrist from the outside.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
To be honest, i don't think the average voter could really be classified left/right/center because they don't pay attention enough to have more than 2-3 solid policy positions and beyond that they're hooked on buzzwords and grand sentiments. You see that pretty clearly in the Pete/Warren/Blomberg voting block overlap (and the above poll's descriptor being so vague, the descriptions for the greens and labour would overlap). And that's not just a U.S. thing.

That aside, democrats are a big tent party that has politicians that range from Bernie to Manchin and several axises inbetween.

Meanwhile republicans are either super far right or super super far right whose disagreements are mostly on the degree they want to fuck people over, so by contrast everything looks like a centrist from the outside.
The problem is European "left" isn't really as progressive as they look.

A few brown folk drove Europe mad.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
The problem is European "left" isn't really as progressive as they look.

A few brown folk drove Europe mad.
Oh absolutely. Europe is abysmal when it comes to immigration policy for the most part. And the parties that European's compare to the dems don't really fit. Like, center-right in europe is fiscal conservative and even centrist Bill Clinton's deficit trimming doesn't compare to the austerity regime taken up by most European center center-right parties. And a lot of those center-right parties pretty clearly use their racist dog whistles. It's not a clean comparison. Left-right measuring is mostly bullshit in the first place.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Oh absolutely. Europe is abysmal when it comes to immigration policy for the most part. And the parties that European's compare to the dems don't really fit. Like, center-right in europe is fiscal conservative and even centrist Bill Clinton's deficit trimming doesn't compare to the austerity regime taken up by most European center center-right parties. It's not a clean comparison. Left-right measuring is mostly bullshit in the first place.
It's also bullshit because economic structures don't have political ideologies attached to them.

Left/Right =/= Capitalism/Socialism/Communism.

Left/Right = Conservative/Moderate/Liberal in America.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
It's also bullshit because economic structures don't have political ideologies attached to them.

Left/Right =/= Capitalism/Socialism/Communism.

Left/Right = Conservative/Moderate/Liberal in America.
Left/Right is whatever the person using the terminology wants it to be for the most part. If a pub is using it, Nancy Pelosi is a communist super radical lefty. If a "Both Sider's" "Moderate" is using it, everyone is either far right or far left if they have political opinions, if you're in french revolution times it's the nobility and monarchists vs the common people.
 
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