US PoliERA 2019 |OT2| #PresidentPelosi

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Raster

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Feb 28, 2018
1,786
If you try hard enough you can twist criticizing AIPAC into being antisemitic because you're perpetuating the trope that Jewish people have money and influence over the government. It's unfair and anyone who thinks critically can tell apart legitimate criticism of Israel/AIPAC from antisemitism.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,624
If a Jewish person tells you that something has antisemitic undertones you should listen. Same as if a black person tells you that what you’re saying has racist undertones. I don’t give a fuck about AIPAC or Israel or any of that shit. That stereotype has been used against me for all of my life, so I’m gonna call it out, and fuck you and anyone else who thinks I or any other Jewish person who’s hurt by this as an ulterior motive. Stop enabling discrimination. Fucking stop.
I'm Jewish too and I don't see it.
The only thing I only see is what I've always seen - that for quite a few people, every and any criticism of AIPAC is antisemitism.
So now what?
 

Doof

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Oct 25, 2017
3,692
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Why is calling out AIPAC lobbying Congress with $ antisemitic ?
If you try hard enough you can twist criticizing AIPAC into being antisemitic because you're perpetuating the trope that Jewish people have money and influence over the government. It's unfair and anyone who thinks critically can tell apart legitimate criticism of Israel/AIPAC from antisemitism.
AIPAC actually doesn’t spend that much money on lobbying, they mostly use volunteers. Granted, other Jewish orgs get marching orders from them, but the amount spent on Israel lobbying is minuscule compared to the greater lobbying machine. It’s mostly volunteers.
 

Doof

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Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
I'm Jewish too and I don't see it.
The only thing I only see is what I've always seen - that for quite a few people, every and any criticism of AIPAC is antisemitism.
So now what?
(I didn’t know you were Jewish, that’s cool)

I can’t speak for those people, but for me, it’s frustrating when I have a legitimate criticism of someone’s word choice, and I’m basically told to just suck it up. I think she’s mostly right on the money, but I wish she would choose her words better, and I wish people would stop talking over me and telling me what is and isn’t antisemitic. That’s all.
 

OtherWorldly

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Dec 3, 2018
1,858
If Hasan Minhaj did the Netflix special about Israel like he did about Saudi Arabia he would be called an antisemite at this rate
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
Why is calling out AIPAC lobbying Congress with $ antisemitic ?
She didn't mention AIPAC until after receiving criticizing for throwing out the "All about the benjamins" comment -- which, alone and without context, is too close to the anti-semitic trope which is why you see pushback from all sides.
AIPAC actually doesn’t spend that much money on lobbying, they mostly use volunteers. Granted, other Jewish orgs get marching orders from them, but the amount spent on Israel lobbying is minuscule compared to the greater lobbying machine. It’s mostly volunteers.
Matt Yglesias expanded his tweet thread from yesterday into an article: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/11/18220160/ilhan-omar-aipac-benjamins-kevin-mccarthy?utm_campaign=mattyglesias&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

The $3.5 million AIPAC spent lobbying in 2018 is trivial compared to what business groups spend (the National Association of Realtors took the cake with $543 million in spending and mostly lost the argument over the home mortgage tax deduction anyway), but very large relative to the world of foreign policy. The No. 2 foreign policy donor, UNICEF USA, spent just $744,000, and its activities are orthogonal to AIPAC’s interests anyway. The largest group lobbying on the other side of AIPAC, J Street, not only spent less than 10 percent of AIPAC’s lobbying budget, it actually got outspent by a second, smaller hawkish Israel policy group, the Israeli-American Coalition for Action.

Last but by no means least, AIPAC spends on less formal means of influence-peddling.

Their annual trips to Israel for members of Congress are perennially the most popular form of foreign congressional travel, in no small part because the accommodations are rather lavish. As Rachael Bade and Amanda Becker have reported, AIPAC spends around $10,000 per guest on business-class airfare and luxury accommodations. Members are allowed to bring spouses and other family guests on the trips, and members frequently go multiple times. Comparable junkets for journalists are also available.

To view this as the primary driver of a foreign policy relationship that has roots in Cold War strategy and substantial links to evangelical eschatology is mistaken. But there’s also something a little willfully naive about the counter-assertion that money is irrelevant. Haim Saban, a major Democratic Party donor, for example, has in the past described himself as “a one-issue guy, and my issue is Israel.” That gives many rank-and-file Democrats who don’t particularly care about foreign policy (a good description of most members of Congress) good reason to adopt a pro-Israel line and enjoy the benefits rather than rocking the boat.
whole article is good, another snippet:

Republicans want a wedge; Omar gave them a sledgehammer
The larger context for this controversy, however, is not the strength of the pro-Israel lobby but its weakness. The concurrent administrations of Obama in the United States and Netanyahu in Israel led to a serious deterioration of the relationship between Democrats and pro-Israel organizations.

On a policy level, that was largely about Iran, where Israel stridently opposed Obama’s nuclear deal but congressional Democrats mostly chose partisanship and ideology over AIPAC’s preferences.

On a political level, that was about Netanyahu’s eagerness to break with precedent and allow Israel to be used as a partisan wedge issue — all but openly campaigning on behalf of Mitt Romney and John Boehner against Obama and congressional Democrats — even while aware that this risked a backlash from Democrats in Congress.

In the Trump era, the United States has tilted further than ever in a pro-Israel direction (moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem even without a diplomatic agreement with the Palestinians about the status of the city), while Democrats have grown stronger in their criticisms of anti-Iranian activities by Saudi Arabia and the UAE that Israel supports.

Bernie Sanders has played a leading role in much of this, continuing a trajectory of shattering taboos that he launched during his 2016 campaign.

But Sanders, who is Jewish, and whose policy team includes seasoned professionals with years of experience on the issue, manages to make his points in a thoughtful, politically effective way. Omar’s social media bomb-throwing, by contrast, is a gift to congressional Republicans who are eager to promote Democratic infighting. And there is now infighting aplenty, with other Democrats rushing to distance themselves from Omar while more left-wing writers and activists emphasize their agreement with the basic point that pro-Israel money matters.
 

Doof

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Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
She didn't mention AIPAC until after receiving criticizing for throwing out the "All about the benjamins" comment -- which, alone and without context, is too close to the anti-semitic trope which is why you see pushback from all sides.

Matt Yglesias expanded his tweet thread from yesterday into an article: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/11/18220160/ilhan-omar-aipac-benjamins-kevin-mccarthy?utm_campaign=mattyglesias&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
Really good article. I think criticizing AIPAC based on the less formal ways they influence our politicians would be more accurate and less easily misconstrued.
 

OtherWorldly

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Dec 3, 2018
1,858
I strongly believe this drive against Rep. Omar especially now with ADL is purely driven by undertones of xenophobia and Muslim phobia. Basically what they are saying is . We will defend you if you are discriminated in America as long as you keep your mouth shut. If you speak against Israeli foreign policy or use words like money when talking of lobbyists working on behalf of right wing Israeli government then we will call you an anti semite

This “defcon 1” response by ADL as someone here called it would not happen if Rep. Omar was Rep. Cathy
 

AnotherNils

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,441
It’s pretty clear that Omar and Tlaib, who I keep seeing grouped in even though she’s done nothing similar, are under an intense microscope because they’re Muslims.

I do not think this blows up like this otherwise.
Yeah, people are waiting for them to give away the game. Fair or not, their words will be heavily scrutinized and going forward they should choose their words very carefully. Honestly, with regards to Israel, Tlaib should have known better to begin with.
 

Doof

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Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
I strongly believe this drive against Rep. Omar especially now with ADL is purely driven by undertones of xenophobia and Muslim phobia. Basically what they are saying is . We will defend you if you are discriminated in America as long as you keep your mouth shut. If you speak against Israeli foreign policy or use words like money when talking of lobbyists working on behalf of right wing Israeli government then we will call you an anti semite

This “defcon 1” response by ADL as someone here called it would not happen if Rep. Omar was Rep. Cathy
yup that’s exactly what I’m saying you caught me
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,624
(I didn’t know you were Jewish, that’s cool)

I can’t speak for those people, but for me, it’s frustrating when I have a legitimate criticism of someone’s word choice, and I’m basically told to just suck it up. I think she’s mostly right on the money, but I wish she would choose her words better, and I wish people would stop talking over me and telling me what is and isn’t antisemitic. That’s all.
No but for real, what actual harm do you think her words are gonna do?
Like, yeah, there are violent anti-semites in the US, but I seriously doubt they're taking marching orders from Ilhan Omar.
On the flip side, it's quite easy to see the harm that branding any criticism of AIPAC as antisemitism does, right? I mean, this has a chilling effect, can you think of any other organization where saying something which is generally true will get you that much shit, and that type of shit?

p.s.
Dude, for real, don't stan for AIPAC, it's a horrible organization that has been pretty much a arm of the Likud for quite a while now.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,544
If Hasan Minhaj did the Netflix special about Israel like he did about Saudi Arabia he would be called an antisemite at this rate
Of course, no one is allowed to criticize Israel’s policies especially if you a Muslim. It’s infuriating because the message has been consistent from the new crop of Democrats pushing against ALL money from politics no matter where it’s coming from but because of the Jewish racist trope perpetuated by antisemites we can’t criticize their money and influence in our government like others? That’s bullshit and they know it.
 

viskod

Member
Nov 9, 2017
979
The United States can't deal with someone being blunt about the reality of Israels actions and lobbying.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,624
Really good article. I think criticizing AIPAC based on the less formal ways they influence our politicians would be more accurate and less easily misconstrued.
Why are you treating AIPAC with such kids gloves?
They are fucking garbage, for real, those motherfuckers lobbied against the Oslo peace process.

Do you like try to make sure people are super fair to fox news too?
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,973
Of course, no one is allowed to criticize Israel’s policies especially if you a Muslim. It’s infuriating because the message has been consistent from the new crop of Democrats pushing against ALL money from politics no matter where it’s coming from but because of the Jewish racist trope perpetuated by antisemites we can’t criticize their money and influence in our government like others? That’s bullshit and they know it.
You can criticize the influence of lobbying on political positions without saying they're only in it for the shekels when referring to Jewish interest groups.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
No but for real, what actual harm do you think her words are gonna do?
Like, yeah, there are violent anti-semites in the US, but I seriously doubt they're taking marching orders from Ilhan Omar.
On the flip side, it's quite easy to see the harm that branding any criticism of AIPAC as antisemitism does, right? I mean, this has a chilling effect, can you think of any other organization where saying something which is generally true will get you that much shit, and that type of shit?

p.s.
Dude, for real, don't stan for AIPAC, it's a horrible organization that has been pretty much a arm of the Likud for quite a while now.
Totally, AIPAC super sucks. I'm honestly more annoyed at people telling me what is and isn't antisemitic. Like, different people can feel different ways (I personally understood what she was talking about, but I can understand why someone might be upset), but as with other minority issues, it's best to err on the side of caution.

It's kinda like the whole "come at the king, best not miss" thing, I guess. If you're gonna come for a lobby as huge and powerful as Israel, you gotta be precise and thorough. I'm not mad at her, really. I'm just upset that the vagueness of her tweet has sparked all of this, and I'm annoyed at some people trying to goysplain at me over this.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
Why are you treating AIPAC with such kids gloves?
They are fucking garbage, for real, those motherfuckers lobbied against the Oslo peace process.

Do you like try to make sure people are super fair to fox news too?
Not trying to treat them with kids gloves! I hate AIPAC, I just think being more precise would be more cutting.

EDIT: You're clearly more informed than me on a lot of stuff, so I'll defer to you. I'm just tired of everyone saying that all of the criticism she's getting is illegitimate. Most of it is, but I just want her to do better.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,544
You can criticize the influence of lobbying on political positions without saying they're only in it for the shekels when referring to Jewish interest groups.
She said “Benjamins” followed by music signs referring to the way money is reffered to in rap music. Out of touch farts not understanding the reference and taking it as racism is on them not her.
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,761
She probably could have made the same point without tripping alarms. Or maybe she couldn’t have. Not sure. The left consistently underestimates the degree of devotion to Israel the mainstream media and political establishment have. And also like the actual voting populace.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,058
Where the fuck have they been this entire administrations 2 years? Fuck them for this.
A brown person said something critical of pro-Israel lobbying! Quick! To the Batmobile!

I wonder if the ADL and its members realize that they have a serious problem with running toward whiteness and embracing it.

Yeah. Not a fan of Harris myself, but she has been pretty pragmatic in a sensible way on marijuana legalization. I don't see a real critique of her movement on policy here.
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
She probably could have made the same point without tripping alarms. Or maybe she couldn’t have. Not sure. The left consistently underestimates the degree of devotion to Israel the mainstream media and political establishment have. And also like the actual voting populace.
I think she would have tripped some bad faith alarms regardless of what she said, partly because it's Israel, partly because she's Muslim -- and I don't think she should be scared of tripping those particular alarms. But she tripped too many alarms, some in good faith, by being sloppy in this instance.

An update in the replies: https://twitter.com/BorisEP/status/1095003572180340737

ZRR @zacharyrraines

the liberal media is outraged that I argue with parody accounts but I am right to do so pic.twitter.com/PiR6gHzFHe

lol
 

Doof

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Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
Has the ADL put out a big press release like this for any of the shit Trump has said over the past 2 years?
I think they maaaaaay have put one out early on, but I don't think it was about Trump, I think it was a general "antisemitism is on the rise and that's bad" type thing. Don't quote me on that. The fact that they put one out for this is ridiculous though.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,190
She probably could have made the same point without tripping alarms. Or maybe she couldn’t have. Not sure. The left consistently underestimates the degree of devotion to Israel the mainstream media and political establishment have. And also like the actual voting populace.
I'm betting that even if she said it better, people would still be going after her because she is Muslim. Not the same nuclear bomb level they are now, but considering how butthurt they are over her and Tlaib being pro-BDS, they would definitely still go after her.

If she said it better, I wouldn't have had a problem with it and would have even defended her. And I don't even like her anymore because of the Maduro shit.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,624
Totally, AIPAC super sucks. I'm honestly more annoyed at people telling me what is and isn't antisemitic. Like, different people can feel different ways (I personally understood what she was talking about, but I can understand why someone might be upset), but as with other minority issues, it's best to err on the side of caution.

It's kinda like the whole "come at the king, best not miss" thing, I guess. If you're gonna come for a lobby as huge and powerful as Israel, you gotta be precise and thorough. I'm not mad at her, really. I'm just upset that the vagueness of her tweet has sparked all of this, and I'm annoyed at some people trying to goysplain at me over this.
I generally disagree that gentiles can't understand what antisemitism is.
Also, do you really not see that the only thing you do is support people who would call any criticism of AIPAC antisemitism?
While you might not be there for them when they call Obama an antisemite, in your actions you are still providing a cover of respectability for that grabage.
And for what?
So that Ilhan Omar learn phrasing better?
I mean, we're not worried about Ilhan Omar leading an antisemite agenda in congress, right?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,849
She probably could have made the same point without tripping alarms. Or maybe she couldn’t have. Not sure. The left consistently underestimates the degree of devotion to Israel the mainstream media and political establishment have. And also like the actual voting populace.
No matter what she would’ve said we would be right here. It’s not the wording or phrasing it’s that she, a Muslim, is speaking on AIPAC that gets the backlash.
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,973
She said “Benjamins” followed by music signs referring to the way money is reffered to in rap music. Out of touch farts not understanding the reference and taking it as racism is on them not her.
That sounds an awful lot like privilege.

Racism, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism; just because it's not intentional doesn't mean it's not hurtful. You can live in your bubble and insist everyone else is wrong and you are free to say these offensive things because "I don't mean it like that", or you can learn and grow as a person and aim to do better next time.

Her statement was unfortunate. She should have been more careful. That doesn't mean she's anti-semitic or a bad person or whatever. She just said something dumb. Acknowledge it and move on.
 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,734
On Omar: The all about the Benjamin's tweet was bad. She deserved some crap for that. The followup highlighting AIPAC in particular was fine. She's entirely correct about AIPAC's outsized influence, and money is a big part of that. Part of why this thing got signal boosted so hard is indeed because she's Muslim. The whole issue is incredibly fraught and pretending otherwise is dumb.

-

So anyway I heard Gilly's segment on Lovett or Leave It and that shit was GREAT. she started out a bit weak but when she got more animated I got reminded whh she's my top pick.
 

Chitown B

Member
Nov 15, 2017
3,192
Totally, AIPAC super sucks. I'm honestly more annoyed at people telling me what is and isn't antisemitic. Like, different people can feel different ways (I personally understood what she was talking about, but I can understand why someone might be upset), but as with other minority issues, it's best to err on the side of caution.

It's kinda like the whole "come at the king, best not miss" thing, I guess. If you're gonna come for a lobby as huge and powerful as Israel, you gotta be precise and thorough. I'm not mad at her, really. I'm just upset that the vagueness of her tweet has sparked all of this, and I'm annoyed at some people trying to goysplain at me over this.
I can get behind this.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,692
Kentucky
I generally disagree that gentiles can't understand what antisemitism is.
Also, do you really not see that the only thing you do is support people who would call any criticism of AIPAC antisemitism?
While you might not be there for them when they call Obama an antisemite, in your actions you are still providing a cover of respectability for that grabage.
And for what?
So that Ilhan Omar learn phrasing better?
I mean, we're not worried about Ilhan Omar leading an antisemite agenda in congress, right?
I suppose you're right. I'm just tired, man. I've had people giving me shit for being Jewish my whole life, so all of this is super frustrating. I hope she does better, but I do think this is all being blown out of proportion.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,544
She probably could have made the same point without tripping alarms. Or maybe she couldn’t have. Not sure. The left consistently underestimates the degree of devotion to Israel the mainstream media and political establishment have. And also like the actual voting populace.
They’ve been coming after her since day one same with Ellison when he was elected solely because of their religion, skin and gender. The republicans have already crafted resolutions to criticize her and other before any of this and she’s not backing off and good for her. They where going to pester her no matter what.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,544
That sounds an awful lot like privilege.

Racism, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism; just because it's not intentional doesn't mean it's not hurtful. You can live in your bubble and insist everyone else is wrong and you are free to say these offensive things because "I don't mean it like that", or you can learn and grow as a person and aim to do better next time.

Her statement was unfortunate. She should have been more careful. That doesn't mean she's anti-semitic or a bad person or whatever. She just said something dumb. Acknowledge it and move on.
You didn’t even have the facts correct. Don’t engage me again.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Oct 27, 2017
200
I didn't have a problem with the tweet, but I've basically never encountered anti-Semitism in the wild in the US, and I'm from the south. It's something I hear about some really old people doing sometimes. Omar's only a little older than me and she's been here since she was 13 or so, so she's just not someone whose statements I'm going to scrutinize much.
 
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