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US PoliEra 2019 |OT9| I'm really glad I'm not on Twitter nearly enough to understand all the references

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OmniOne

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Oct 25, 2017
2,510
The thing is, there are so many potential permutations of that hypothetical situation that it would be impossible to anticipate them all. White privilege is real, which means that they're coming from an entirely different perspective, so it makes sense that it's difficult for them to put themselves in a black person's shoes. Hindsight is 2020. There are plenty of similar questions that could have been asked. Should they have been prepared for those too?
Generally, the crux of the question is the same no matter how its asked.

Yes, a candidate should be nimble enough to base their answer in empathy, and answer the question appropriately.
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
17,369
Reminder to all in NYC: we have early voting now. The polls are open. Go vote.
 

brainchild

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Generally, the crux of the question is the same no matter how its asked.

Yes, a candidate should be nimble enough to base their answer in empathy, and answer the question appropriately.
The crux being 'how would you personally handle black issues with your black kids as a white person' is an incredibly broad and complex topic that I wouldn't expect any white person to have all the answers to. Come on now.

Did her programming malfunction?
It was out of context, but yeah, it was still pretty bad.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
8,934

Ivanka doesn’t blast the press as the enemy of the people, like her father does. Rather, she sees the news media as her personal enrichment and image-enhancement tool—which was, for many years, very much the case when she was a socialite living on the Upper East Side, fawned over by the lifestyle and fashion press. One editor who has worked for three leading national publications told me that she thought that Ivanka is the hardest Washington beat to cover. “With Donald, it’s all out there. By contrast, Ivanka is secretive, cryptic, controlled, and poised,” the editor said speaking on the condition of anonymity.
She hasn’t been able to maintain this iron media grip alone. Early in 2017, shortly after getting themselves installed in senior Trump administration roles, she and Jared brought on their own PR flack, Josh Raffel, to serve in the West Wing’s communications operations. Raffel, who was a White House employee paid with taxpayer dollars, spent countless hours on the phone with reporters, including myself, defending the couple. The premise Raffel, who left the White House in 2018, pushed with some success into media zeitgeist: Ivanka has her narrow lanes—workforce development, human trafficking, global entrepreneurship—and therefore basically has a free pass on everything else.
It helps explain how Ivanka has managed to pull off the PR stunt of a lifetime: floating untouched above the reputational decline—she is, according to a June survey, polling better in swing states than her father—that has consumed the Trump administration’s entire inner circle, save her.
Like many other people living inside the Beltway fishbowl, Ivanka has made herself useful to reporters and employed the age-old Washington media practice of getting her message out there through surrogates and background and off-the-record conversations with journalists.
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“Everyone, including Jared and Ivanka, leak to the press. I think in general it helps to leak if the person is under scrutiny,” said Sam Nunberg, a former Trump adviser and Zelig of the political news media world.
But Ivanka can also go into full attack mode when the news cycle winds aren’t favorable, specifically when she feels particularly embarrassed and belittled by the coverage. Take, for instance, the reaction of the White House press office after BBC reporter Parham Ghabodi tweeted a video taken by the French presidential palace showing Ivanka trying awkwardly to insert herself into a conversation with world leaders.
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“There are many White House reporters who are afraid to challenge her [Ivanka] and hold her accountable, because she and Jared are their entry into deeper relationships in the administration. I’ve talked to a least half a dozen reporters who have told me this,” one prominent public affairs professional in Washington, D.C., told me, speaking on the condition of anonymity so as not to compromise the organization’s relationship with the press.



More in the link.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,130
The crux being 'how would you personally handle black issues with your black kids as a white person' is an incredibly broad and complex topic that I wouldn't expect any white person to have all the answers to. Come on now.
This is absurd on its face because no one can possibly know what it's like to have experience with an identity that isn't theirs, but we can all learn from one another, pay attention to what people of other identities say they need from their society, and in general, be empathetic to others.

I don't know, if someone asked me how I would try to shepherd my gay child through life even though I am currently childless, I don't think it would be outside of my ability to answer that because I pay attention to what gay folks say, and I pay particular attention to what gay black folks say, so I think it's something that I could talk about while being cognizant of the fact that I personally will never have those concerns in my personal life.

If your viewpoint is that a white person can't even begin to understand black feelings, then what are we doing here? There's no hope for us or this country with us as a part of it. I believe that white people have access to empathy, though, and that some of them are interested in using that access to understand us.
 

brainchild

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This is absurd on its face because no one can possibly know what it's like to have experience with an identity that isn't theirs, but we can all learn from one another, pay attention to what people of other identities say they need from their society, and in general, be empathetic to others.

I don't know, if someone asked me how I would try to shepherd my gay child through life even though I am currently childless, I don't think it would be outside of my ability to answer that because I pay attention to what gay folks say, and I pay particular attention to what gay black folks say, so I think it's something that I could talk about while being cognizant of the fact that I personally will never have those concerns in my personal life.

If your viewpoint is that a white person can't even begin to understand black feelings, then what are we doing here? There's no hope for us or this country with us as a part of it. I believe that white people have access to empathy, though, and that some of them are interested in using that access to understand us.
For the most part, the issues with these answers from the candidates wasn't a lack of empathy though; clearly there is a basis of empathy (offering advice to help to protect/survive, offering expressions of understanding that it's not our fault, etc.) What I'm talking about is having answers that that are informed and offer good solutions, and that will be hard to come by if you're lacking perspective, or if good solutions are seldom available.
 

pigeon

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Oct 25, 2017
4,475
I think it’s correct to say that the question is extremely challenging for a white politician to navigate correctly, and none of them did so perfectly. But that doesn’t really mean it’s a bad question. Arguably the opposite is true. I want them asked questions that are very difficult to answer! Let’s see them hustle!
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,733
The entire point of electing a POTUS is that we want someone to lead who to the best of their abilities understands peoples problems and tries to fix them. It isn’t absurd to ask someone regardless of their race a question like that because it is a problem for a large portion of the country whether the person leading them is black or not.

If your perception is too narrow or you can’t give good advice to people who you didn’t have similar life experiences too then you probably shouldn’t run for an office where you’ll be representing hundreds of millions of people. Bernie’s answer was bad and needs to be better going forward it’s just that simple
 

brainchild

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I think it’s correct to say that the question is extremely challenging for a white politician to navigate correctly, and none of them did so perfectly. But that doesn’t really mean it’s a bad question. Arguably the opposite is true. I want them asked questions that are very difficult to answer! Let’s see them hustle!
My problem with the question isn't that it was difficult to answer. My problem with the question is: look at the responses from several black people regarding all of their responses; they were inevitable due to the nature of the question and the people being asked the question.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,222
The thing is, there are so many potential permutations of that hypothetical situation that it would be impossible to anticipate them all. White privilege is real, which means that they're coming from an entirely different perspective, so it makes sense that it's difficult for them to put themselves in a black person's shoes. Hindsight is 2020. There are plenty of similar questions that could have been asked. Should they have been prepared for those too?
your job as a presidential candidate is to anticipate and be prepared for questions like this, yes.

The entire point of electing a POTUS is that we want someone to lead who to the best of their abilities understands peoples problems and tries to fix them. It isn’t absurd to ask someone regardless of their race a question like that because it is a problem for a large portion of the country whether the person leading them is black or not.

If your perception is too narrow or you can’t give good advice to people who you didn’t have similar life experiences too then you probably shouldn’t run for an office where you’ll be representing hundreds of millions of people. Bernie’s answer was bad and needs to be better going forward it’s just that simple
Exactly this. And Sanders is in a unique position relative to everyone else because HE RAN FOR OFFICE IN 2016 IN ONE OF THE LONGEST PRIMARY CAMPAIGNS IN HISTORY.

These questions aren't new- they were around in 2016 because we had the same problems in 2016. Yet Sanders consistently shits the bed on any question remotely to do with race because he either cannot understand the perspective or does not care to. A one off bad answer to a question can be forgiven, but this isn't the boat Sanders is in. His responses are ALWAYS horrendous.
 

Autodidact

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Oct 25, 2017
16,001
I think it’s correct to say that the question is extremely challenging for a white politician to navigate correctly, and none of them did so perfectly. But that doesn’t really mean it’s a bad question. Arguably the opposite is true. I want them asked questions that are very difficult to answer! Let’s see them hustle!
Precisely. As a candidate, you should want good-faith questions that force you to think and even to reconsider your answer afterward.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,222
No. My point is that the former doesn't necessarily prepare you for the latter.
Your point is a bad one. Everyone running for office at this point should be prepared to answer that question, or any question remotely in the same ballpark. African Americans being shot to death via law enforcement is a consistent problem. A President should have some idea of how to approach it or at the very least be able to address the issue with empathy.

Sanders was able to do neither, and this is inexcusable given it's the second time he's run for this job since 2016.
 

pigeon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,475
Have you met brainchild
Apparently not, and I'm beginning to regret the interaction.
Don't be mean! So unnecessary!

My problem with the question isn't that it was difficult to answer. My problem with the question is: look at the responses from several black people regarding all of their responses; they were inevitable due to the nature of the question and the people being asked the question.
That is what I meant by difficulty.
 

brainchild

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Your point is a bad one. Everyone running for office at this point should be prepared to answer that question, or any question remotely in the same ballpark. African Americans being shot to death via law enforcement is a consistent problem. A President should have some idea of how to approach it or at the very least be able to address the issue with empathy.

Sanders was able to do neither, and this is inexcusable given it's the second time he's run for this job since 2016.
Sanders gave the answer I (and many, many black parents) tell our kids. The veracity of his answer wasn't the issue. The issue was that he was the one to say it.
 

Manmademan

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Aug 6, 2018
6,222
Sanders gave the answer I (and many, many black parents) tell our kids. The veracity of his answer wasn't the issue. The issue was that he was the one to say it.
Let me be as clear as I possibly can.

Sanders' response was a bad one, because he's being asked *in the context of a politician able to do something about the issue* what he would tell a child in that situation.

"Be polite and respectful so they don't shoot you" is a horrible, terrible answer. it fails to acknowledge that no matter how polite or respectful you are- that will not stop racist cops from treating you like a threat. Philando Castile was as respectful as possible. Charles Kinsey was on the ground with his hands in the air and clearly not even the threat in question. Atiana Jefferson was shot in her own house. It's not a "be polite enough and you'll be ok" issue, and responding as if it is as sanders has done is irresponsible. The specific phrasing he used as well was ugly and lacks empathy. I was disgusted when I heard it and so were many others.

Politeness and respectfulness will not save you here.

Sanders fails as he always does to recognize this is a racism problem, this is a discrimination problem. I'm not a warren superfan, but her first point that "This is not your fault, this is discrimination" IS the correct way to lead off on that. You teach a kid that it's not THEIR behavior that is causing this. This is an issue white america has with black america, and we need to learn to navigate it as best as possible.

Sanders also fails to recognize this is a law enforcement problem. Law enforcement will lie to protect each other, re-hire officers with known red flags, and shout down minorities who complain with blue line bullshit. Being polite and respectful will not fix this, and in fact will only make the problem worse when police learn they can walk all over you. Know your rights, protect yourself, but don't do anything stupid. Law enforcement wants you to believe that "not having your hands clearly visible" or "making sudden moves" was why innocent people were shot down without cause- and it's horseshit. Lives are being lost because SOME white cops don't value black lives and the worst of them are looking for an excuse to demonstrate this.

This is an institutional problem that must be solved via legislation. Law enforcement needs far more oversight than it has. There is no reason that traffic cops need to be running around with live ammo. Obviously biased prosecutors need to be removed. For-Profit jails and prisons need to be shut down. Personal possession and use of marijuana and similar drugs needs to be decriminalized. Sanders is in a position to recognize this and advocate it, but failed to do so and always fails to do so, because he doesn't see race as a problem, he only sees class.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,636
And this is why I don't fuck with is this sub-forum like that.

Peace.
I don’t usually call people out with snark and if I eat a ban, that’s on me, but try and remember that you’ve taken several bans across two forums for spiraling down semantic rabbit holes. Honestly I think you’re a good faith contributor but you have to have noticed that nobody else gets into protracted arguments about everyday words.
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,207
Here's a longer clip:


It's still a no for me. Absolutely not.
Okay, now I think I get it. Sounds like she's talking about crimes of desperation, here. "Nothing stops a bullet like a job" means someone is less likely to turn to crime and shoot someone if they have a job and can provide for themself/their families. So her idea is that an improved education system and job market leading to more opportunities for people leading to less crime. Easier said than done.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,222
I don’t usually call people out with snark and if I eat a ban, that’s on me, but try and remember that you’ve taken several bans across two forums for spiraling down semantic rabbit holes. Honestly I think you’re a good faith contributor but you have to have noticed that nobody else gets into protracted arguments about everyday words.
Right. Hair splitting over nonsense is not what I'm here for, and my patience for people who try that is very short.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,897
Chesire, UK

It's taken him a while, but it looks like Bernie is finally coming around to Socialism.

Still not all the way there, but it gives me hope he'll move on from his current half-way-house positioning.
 

brainchild

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EDIT:

I thought this was the Socialism OT. My bad. I didn't mean to post here (and I have no intention to post here in the future).
 

OmniOne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
I just generally think anyone arguing any question 'snuck up' on a candidate or was a variation on a variable on a random allotment of assembled words of which no one could predict is just being overtly intellectually dishonest. Especially on behalf of a candidate on their second rodeo.
 

woman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,676
Atlanta
Kamala’s clip being taken out of context too. She’s speaking about violence broadly, not police violence in particular. It’s well documented that from a public safety perspective, education and employment reduce the likelihood of violence.
 

Prodigal Son

Member
Oct 27, 2017
946
Kamala’s clip being taken out of context too. She’s speaking about violence broadly, not police violence in particular. It’s well documented that from a public safety perspective, education and employment reduce the likelihood of violence.
exactly. kamala sucks but there's a reason the clip is like 5 seconds long
 

brainchild

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User Banned (3 Days): Inflammatory Community Generalizations
huh. I've been around for quite a while, but "poster loses argument so badly they self ban themselves from the subforum" is definitely a new one for me.
You know what, I wasn't going to post here again, but before I leave (and yes, I will be requesting a permanent self-ban) people should know why I'm actually leaving.

Anyone who knows me knows that I have absolutely no problem with long, extended arguments, but I do not tolerate ad hominems, and I could already see that this thread was headed down that path again after comments like yours. I've been through that too many times with poli-era, and just in general, interactions here have just not been very pleasant. This is more like the straw that broke the camel's back.

As for your argument about Sanders. It's hogwash. He literally brought up exactly what you talked about, but you couldn't be arsed to look at the full exchange to see that, very much in the same way that I didn't realize how out of context Kamala's quote was, ironically.

Yes, Sanders is flaky on race issues sometimes, but there are other times where he has the best responses on race issues, but that never gets acknowledged here. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone here acknowledge just how far he's leading the pack on his criminal justice platform compared to everyone else in the field, but that's not surprising.

Anyway, I wish you all well. I really mean that, but I hope that maybe one day this community can realize the kind of toxic, unwelcoming atmosphere it has fostered, because I am personally tired of it.

Cheers. It's been fun.
 

shinra-bansho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,455
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the reason you end up in long(-winded) arguments around semantic pendantry for Bernie Sanders doing or saying something with multiple different people is of your own making...? Just a thought...

There are people who post in here in support of Sanders regularly who don't really have issue?
 

RailWays

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,852
You know what, I wasn't going to post here again, but before I leave (and yes, I will be requesting a permanent self-ban) people should know why I'm actually leaving.

Anyone who knows me knows that I have absolutely no problem with long, extended arguments, but I do not tolerate ad hominems, and I could already see that this thread was headed down that path again after comments like yours. I've been through that too many times with poli-era, and just in general, interactions here have just not been very pleasant. This is more like the straw that broke the camel's back.

As for your argument about Sanders. It's hogwash. He literally brought up exactly what you talked about, but you couldn't be arsed to look at the full exchange to see that, very much in the same way that I didn't realize how out of context Kamala's quote was, ironically.

Yes, Sanders is flaky on race issues sometimes, but there are other times where he has the best responses on race issues, but that never gets acknowledged here. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone here acknowledge just how far he's leading the pack on his criminal justice platform compared to everyone else in the field, but that's not surprising.

Anyway, I wish you all well. I really mean that, but I hope that maybe one day this community can realize the kind of toxic, unwelcoming atmosphere it has fostered, because I am personally tired of it.

Cheers. It's been fun.
Cheers, brainchild.
I appreciated your input fwiw
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,699
We're a million debates in and not a single person has pressed Biden's Iraq vote.
Kinda pointless. It's never been an issue that's mattered in the primaries up to now, so you'd be going negative with an attack that historically doesn't work. Since going negative also historically doesn't help you (only hurts your target, if the attack works), there's no advantage.
 

shinra-bansho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,455
Kinda pointless. It's never been an issue that's mattered in the primaries up to now, so you'd be going negative with an attack that historically doesn't work. Since going negative also historically doesn't help you (only hurts your target, if the attack works), there's no advantage.
I mean it was a defining issue in '08 against Shillary. But that was a lifetime ago.
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,878
Trump claimed he heard al bagdahdi whimpering and crying for his life? WTF, true or not why would you talk about this?
 
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