US PoliEra 2020 |OT 2| Dershowitz says "Quid Pro Quo on the Go?" [See Staff Post]

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BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
Man if you all think that Bernie's friends are bad, let me pull up a list of Hillary Clinton's friends.
 

ScribbleD

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,401
The thing is, people tell us that Bernie's different, that he's special, he's not the usual sort of politician. So, people are being told to expect better out of him. I wasn't saying that Amy or Pete are better people, and I probably shouldn't've mentioned them, just that I was trying to list people who were campaigning for the democratic primary, rather than saying "these are people who are better than bernie." I apologize.
Np at all. I genuinely appreciate it.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,184
Atlanta
User Banned (6 Months): Consistent pattern of trolling with intent to disrupt healthy discourse; repeated violation of intercommunity guidelines.
Shame on Bernie for hiring staffers who have even gotten close to appearing to suggest that people be doxxed
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,948
There is something really amusing with trying to paint Linkura as some type of half ass poster in trying to get "gotachas" over the course of a few pages.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,886
USA
Did you not read my post? Actions speak louder than words. His campaign staff harasses people. That isn't an opinion- see the article I posted about Sirota above. Y'all are splitting hairs about Bri, but she's not the only one. And yet he continues to employ both while he claims that harassers aren't part of his movement. AND YET THEY ARE OFFICIALLY PAID MEMBERS OF HIS CAMPAIGN!

Y'know what, I think I'm done, because this thread has been derailed enough. I shouldn't have even bothered to engage because lord knows I usually scroll right past this kind of fighting when I'm catching up on this thread.
You know what? I've asked for evidence multiple times in this thread, and it's quickly moving, and you're not tagging me, so I'm missing it. I'm trying to catch up with the information being provided and you're not even giving me a chance (the first link you included was after the fact, even after you said to go look it up).

If you quote me, I will see your links. You're making it appear as if I'm ignoring your posts when I'm not. And if you've followed me at all, which I know you have, over the course of the time I've posted in PoliERA and elsewhere, you know I don't do that.

I'm currently looking for Sirota harassment, and I just see criticism of other dem figures (not saying I condone everything he's saying). Where is evidence that he has harassed people?
 

Owzers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,412
User banned (5 days): Trolling, inflammatory comparison.
I view Sanders admonishing bad behavior of his supporters like Trump occasionally saying he renounces white nationalists. its just not that believable.
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
473
The thing is, people tell us that Bernie's different, that he's special, he's not the usual sort of politician. So, people are being told to expect better out of him
This is super unfair though, because really he's been pretty positive. Part of that positivity is being a frontrunner, part of that is he's not going to claw his way of his 25% dumpster without playing friendly with the rest of the party.

Really ask how much agency Bernie and his campaign appartus actually has here. He has a vocal movement that he can direct and use-and they do so to shape media and narratives- but it's not like a bunch of robots that will all react the same way to things. You have to judge the people in his zone of control on what they are trying to do now and in the recent past, and for the most part-it's pretty normal for the peak of the primary season, which is always bananas.

And this comes from someone who basically hates Bernie and unfairly blames him for 2016 in completely irrational ways. (but will still vote in general for him 100% no questions asked)
 

ScribbleD

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,401
I view Sanders admonishing bad behavior of his supporters like Trump occasionally saying he renounces white nationalists. its just not that believable.
Oh cool so we're doing that thing where we compare Sanders to a neo-nazi again. Very cool and normal.

I forget how the cycle goes. Is it "Sanders supporters are basically gamergaters" next, or does something else come first?
 

Owzers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,412
Oh cool so we're doing that thing where we compare Sanders to a neo-nazi again. Very cool and normal.

I forget how the cycle goes. Is it "Sanders supporters are basically gamergaters" next, or does something else come first?
except that’s not the point at all....the comparison is between how Sanders and Trump try to disavow actions and behavior by people that support them and me not really believing either one.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,886
USA
except that’s not the point at all....the comparison is between how Sanders and Trump try to disavow actions and behavior by people that support them and me not really believing either one.
Why should be not believe Sanders when he says he doesn't want to be associated with online/general harassment?
 

ScribbleD

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,401
except that’s not the point at all....the comparison is between how Sanders and Trump try to disavow actions and behavior by people that support them and me not really believing either one.
People have done this enough that it has become a meme, so I don't know why you're doubling down on this.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,948
I think the fact we now have people labeling outright toxic behavior as "enthusiastic activism" is kinda all that needs to be said about the issue of the lack of accountability outright hostility that Sanders supporters are comfortable displaying both in online environments that have little blow back, but in real world settings that do actually have consequences. Even though we are just two states in, the very growing realization that Sanders has a problem with expanding his base, and that the continued toxicity of his most adamant supporters are doing far more harm than good.

Sanders can't run off of the anti-Hillary vote, and the issue is mounting that he is basically outnumbered right now in terms of the Democratic base voting for Pete/Biden/Klob/Bloom vs Sanders + Warren.

Sanders doesn't have much crossover or second choice voters, and I don't think the loudest people creating the reality of "hostile supporters" is helping, at all.
 

Chaos Legion

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,775
I view Sanders admonishing bad behavior of his supporters like Trump occasionally saying he renounces white nationalists. its just not that believable.
I’m sympathetic that politicians and celebrities who amass such a following and band of loyalists shouldn’t be held 100% responsible for the actions of their fans. Bernie and Trump have an annoyingly devout group of supporters and I’ll say maybe it is the vocal minority, but weak efforts of saying ‘I’d never condone that!’ ring hollow to me as well. And it’s not just Bernie/Trump. Beyhive, T Swift and Ariana Grande fans aren’t that different.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,402
Kentucky
I’m sympathetic that politicians and celebrities who amass such a following and band of loyalists shouldn’t be held 100% responsible for the actions of their fans. Bernie and Trump have an annoyingly devout group of supporters and I’ll say maybe it is the vocal minority, but weak efforts of saying ‘I’d never condone that!’ ring hollow to me as well. And it’s not just Bernie/Trump. Beyhive, T Swift and Ariana Grande fans aren’t that different.
This is pretty fair but I will say that 100% of Trump supporters are Nazis and he absolutely does condone their behavior. Hardcore Bernie fans, as shitty as they can be, aren’t in the same ballpark. Hell they ain’t even playing the same sport.
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
I think the fact we now have people labeling outright toxic behavior as "enthusiastic activism" is kinda all that needs to be said about the issue of the lack of accountability outright hostility that Sanders supporters are comfortable displaying both in online environments that have little blow back, but in real world settings that do actually have consequences. Even though we are just two states in, the very growing realization that Sanders has a problem with expanding his base, and that the continued toxicity of his most adamant supporters are doing far more harm than good.

Sanders can't run off of the anti-Hillary vote, and the issue is mounting that he is basically outnumbered right now in terms of the Democratic base voting for Pete/Biden/Klob/Bloom vs Sanders + Warren.

Sanders doesn't have much crossover or second choice voters, and I don't think the loudest people creating the reality of "hostile supporters" is helping, at all.
Who on his campaign is actually being "toxic" or vicious?

None of this hurts Sanders. The vast majority of voters don't pay attention to twitter drama. The ones who do are going to vote for Bernie anyway because "vote blue no matter who". Well, except KHive.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
3,724
So, here's the thing...this narrative about poor behavior from Sander's supporters (some not all!) didn't just pop up out of thin air. The behavior of his delegates in 2016 at the convention was abhorrent. They literally heckled ELIJAH FUCKING CUMMINGS during his speech about civil rights. You had Susan Sarandon running around the convention trying to stir up shit anywhere and everywhere she could. (God knows she doesn't have acting gigs anymore.) The Sander's supporters behavior at the NV convention was abhorrent. There are posts after posts after posts of (mostly women tbh) on Twitter who dare post a critique of Bernie, and they get swarmed by that subset of incredibly online Bernie supporters. When Bernie launched his 2020 campaign, the narrative was already there so he started the entire cycle by saying "Don't do it!" But it continued to this day. When the WFP endorsed Warren over Bernie, the leadership was so violently attacked, along racial lines I might add, that they literally wrote the Bernie campaign and asked them to please do something about their supporters. When Ady endorsed Warren over Bernie, the vile that was directed at him was repugnant. Bernie had to step in then too.

Do I think all Bernie supporters are like this? Hell no. But the truth is there IS a vocal (very fucking vocal) minority of incredibly online Sanders people who do harass literally everyone who dares speak out against Bernie. This is, probably, in part because a lot of Sander's supporters are incredibly young. But, I do think part of it is the rhetoric that comes from the campaign. You have Sirota, you have his press secretary, you have Nina Turner...then you have the whole rhetoric of "EVERYONE IS AGAINST US" that constantly comes from the campaign itself. We are a handful of weeks removed from Bernie having to apologize for his surrogate calling Joe Biden corrupt. Again, these are not isolated incidents. There is a pattern of behavior.

There were reporters who spoke to voters in NH and tweeted about their interactions. More than one voter told folks they like Bernie, but they do not like the idea of being associated with his supporters. These incredibly online yelling people may think they're helping, but they're not. They're hurting him. Again, not al Sander's supporters are like this. Not even a plurality. But the only way to not be aware of, at the very least, the narrative is to just ignore everything that's happened in the last 5 years.

i will vote for Bernie, but it will be in spite of his campaign and some of his supporters. Not because of them.
 
Jun 20, 2019
1,118
I think the fact we now have people labeling outright toxic behavior as "enthusiastic activism" is kinda all that needs to be said about the issue of the lack of accountability outright hostility that Sanders supporters are comfortable displaying both in online environments that have little blow back, but in real world settings that do actually have consequences. Even though we are just two states in, the very growing realization that Sanders has a problem with expanding his base, and that the continued toxicity of his most adamant supporters are doing far more harm than good.

Sanders can't run off of the anti-Hillary vote, and the issue is mounting that he is basically outnumbered right now in terms of the Democratic base voting for Pete/Biden/Klob/Bloom vs Sanders + Warren.

Sanders doesn't have much crossover or second choice voters, and I don't think the loudest people creating the reality of "hostile supporters" is helping, at all.
You’re calling people out? There’s a disagreement here, no real malice. I don’t see why we need to escalate to “lack of accountability”.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,598
He did, but it took a few times to finally put it away because the media (and Wright) were trying to make it stick. Man, it was annoying.
When you can make a speech that sounds like the spirit of MLK Jr. inhabited your voice, you can get away with a lot of stuff.

I'm not convinced he could shake it off in the same way in the present time.

Social media is a hell of a drug.
Fair. 46% of the country has declared an open race war on black and brown people here in 2020. It wasn't quite like that in 2008.

I remember the Wright thing dominating several news cycles. Particularly galling to me because I agreed with Wright.
It was basically Malcolm X's "Chickens coming home to roost" comment with a few cursie-wursies.

So obviously you can see where he was coming from if you have any historical perspective at all, which is why it wouldn't play well in the Midwest or the South or, hell, among a good 70% of the American populace.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,948
Who on his campaign is actually being "toxic" or vicious?

None of this hurts Sanders. The vast majority of voters don't pay attention to twitter drama. The ones who do are going to vote for Bernie anyway because "vote blue no matter who". Well, except KHive.
Except there is clearly a perception beyond the twitter verse that the media has been talking about it for a long time, people have personal anecdotes all over the place, there are incidents of threats back from the 16' race, people starting "fuck Biden/Warren" during the Iowa caucus this year. We have folks on ERA who have tired to push the narrative that Bernie or Busters could literally tank the election, and that people have a moral obligation to kneel to the whim the folks who could destroy the election if they didn't get their way.

This has been a rather long standing issue. Sanders has hired people who have been shit heads, who bring forth the type of toxic attitude that does seem to permeate to an unfortunate degree. Some people want to dismiss it as MSM attacking Sanders and I'm not really going to deal with pointless deflections of the issue.

You may want to think that it's just twitter stuff that nobody cares about, but that's not the reality.

So, here's the thing...this narrative about poor behavior from Sander's supporters (some not all!) didn't just pop up out of thin air. The behavior of his delegates in 2016 at the convention was abhorrent. They literally heckled ELIJAH FUCKING CUMMINGS during his speech about civil rights. You had Susan Sarandon running around the convention trying to stir up shit anywhere and everywhere she could. (God knows she doesn't have acting gigs anymore.) The Sander's supporters behavior at the NV convention was abhorrent. There are posts after posts after posts of (mostly women tbh) on Twitter who dare post a critique of Bernie, and they get swarmed by that subset of incredibly online Bernie supporters. When Bernie launched his 2020 campaign, the narrative was already there so he started the entire cycle by saying "Don't do it!" But it continued to this day. When the WFP endorsed Warren over Bernie, the leadership was so violently attacked, along racial lines I might add, that they literally wrote the Bernie campaign and asked them to please do something about their supporters. When Ady endorsed Warren over Bernie, the vile that was directed at him was repugnant. Bernie had to step in then too.

Do I think all Bernie supporters are like this? Hell no. But the truth is there IS a vocal (very fucking vocal) minority of incredibly online Sanders people who do harass literally everyone who dares speak out against Bernie. This is, probably, in part because a lot of Sander's supporters are incredibly young. But, I do think part of it is the rhetoric that comes from the campaign. You have Sirota, you have his press secretary, you have Nina Turner...then you have the whole rhetoric of "EVERYONE IS AGAINST US" that constantly comes from the campaign itself. We are a handful of weeks removed from Bernie having to apologize for his surrogate calling Joe Biden corrupt. Again, these are not isolated incidents. There is a pattern of behavior.

There were reporters who spoke to voters in NH and tweeted about their interactions. More than one voter told folks they like Bernie, but they do not like the idea of being associated with his supporters. These incredibly online yelling people may think they're helping, but they're not. They're hurting him. Again, not al Sander's supporters are like this. Not even a plurality. But the only way to not be aware of, at the very least, the narrative is to just ignore everything that's happened in the last 5 years.

i will vote for Bernie, but it will be in spite of his campaign and some of his supporters. Not because of them.
I'll just let Adam do his thing
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,754
So, here's the thing...this narrative about poor behavior from Sander's supporters (some not all!) didn't just pop up out of thin air. The behavior of his delegates in 2016 at the convention was abhorrent. They literally heckled ELIJAH FUCKING CUMMINGS during his speech about civil rights. You had Susan Sarandon running around the convention trying to stir up shit anywhere and everywhere she could. (God knows she doesn't have acting gigs anymore.) The Sander's supporters behavior at the NV convention was abhorrent. There are posts after posts after posts of (mostly women tbh) on Twitter who dare post a critique of Bernie, and they get swarmed by that subset of incredibly online Bernie supporters. When Bernie launched his 2020 campaign, the narrative was already there so he started the entire cycle by saying "Don't do it!" But it continued to this day. When the WFP endorsed Warren over Bernie, the leadership was so violently attacked, along racial lines I might add, that they literally wrote the Bernie campaign and asked them to please do something about their supporters. When Ady endorsed Warren over Bernie, the vile that was directed at him was repugnant. Bernie had to step in then too.

Do I think all Bernie supporters are like this? Hell no. But the truth is there IS a vocal (very fucking vocal) minority of incredibly online Sanders people who do harass literally everyone who dares speak out against Bernie. This is, probably, in part because a lot of Sander's supporters are incredibly young. But, I do think part of it is the rhetoric that comes from the campaign. You have Sirota, you have his press secretary, you have Nina Turner...then you have the whole rhetoric of "EVERYONE IS AGAINST US" that constantly comes from the campaign itself. We are a handful of weeks removed from Bernie having to apologize for his surrogate calling Joe Biden corrupt. Again, these are not isolated incidents. There is a pattern of behavior.

There were reporters who spoke to voters in NH and tweeted about their interactions. More than one voter told folks they like Bernie, but they do not like the idea of being associated with his supporters. These incredibly online yelling people may think they're helping, but they're not. They're hurting him. Again, not al Sander's supporters are like this. Not even a plurality. But the only way to not be aware of, at the very least, the narrative is to just ignore everything that's happened in the last 5 years.

i will vote for Bernie, but it will be in spite of his campaign and some of his supporters. Not because of them.


Also I forgot his supporters heckled Elijah Cummings WTF
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,910
None of this hurts Sanders. The vast majority of voters don't pay attention to twitter drama.
The moment a Sanders supporter moves up a gear in real life and becomes loud and obnoxious, evangelizing Sanders and putting down other people in a disrespectful manner, it hurts Sanders. Because, at some level, every vocal supporter of a Presidential candidate is a surrogate for that candidate. Word of mouth can be both positive and negative, and people will draw inferences - rightly or wrongly - about a candidate based on their supporters.

Edit: And to more directly speak to "Twitter drama" - you know "normal people" have Twitter, right? Who knows how many potential Sanders voters see (or hear) about over-zealous supporters of his going on a rumble through Twitter?
 
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MizerMan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,959
I'm not convinced he could shake it off in the same way in the present time.

Social media is a hell of a drug.
He likely could've shook it off in the present day. Enough that won't make too much of a difference. It would've stuck around a lot longer thanks to social media, yeah

When you can make a speech that sounds like the spirit of MLK Jr. inhabited your voice, you can get away with a lot of stuff.
Heh. True, true.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
3,724
I shared this in 2016 at the old place when I was canvassing.

I was lectured by a straight man about how I was a traitor to all LGBT people because I didn't support Sanders. It ended with homophobic comments that I won't even dignify with repeating. We had another Sander's supporter who decided to try to take over our local party. The woman who has been in charge of our party for like 30 years has done a wonderful job. We're in a very red area where I think the best a Dem has ever done is like losing by 10 points or so. it's a thankless job. This young woman came in and tried to run the whole thing, let us all know we were all horrible people, and tried to fuck everything up. Once Bernie conceded, she never came back, thank fuck.

So, ya, I have dealt with some of these very vocal folks in real life. It's not pleasant.
 

NH Apache

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,646
New Orleans, LA
But Ocasio-Cortez is also realistic about how far even a President Sanders could actually move Congress.

“The worst-case scenario? We compromise deeply and we end up getting a public option. Is that a nightmare? I don’t think so,” she said.

Ocasio-Cortez stressed that just getting a public option for health care wasn’t the left’s ultimate goal. But she also said she wasn’t here to railroad other members with differing viewpoints on health care ― she just thinks it helps to have a president who has a more ambitious platform than Congress so that Democrats could stretch what’s possible.

Initial fallout:


My goodness.
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
So, here's the thing...this narrative about poor behavior from Sander's supporters (some not all!) didn't just pop up out of thin air. The behavior of his delegates in 2016 at the convention was abhorrent. They literally heckled ELIJAH FUCKING CUMMINGS during his speech about civil rights. You had Susan Sarandon running around the convention trying to stir up shit anywhere and everywhere she could. (God knows she doesn't have acting gigs anymore.) The Sander's supporters behavior at the NV convention was abhorrent. There are posts after posts after posts of (mostly women tbh) on Twitter who dare post a critique of Bernie, and they get swarmed by that subset of incredibly online Bernie supporters. When Bernie launched his 2020 campaign, the narrative was already there so he started the entire cycle by saying "Don't do it!" But it continued to this day. When the WFP endorsed Warren over Bernie, the leadership was so violently attacked, along racial lines I might add, that they literally wrote the Bernie campaign and asked them to please do something about their supporters. When Ady endorsed Warren over Bernie, the vile that was directed at him was repugnant. Bernie had to step in then too.

Do I think all Bernie supporters are like this? Hell no. But the truth is there IS a vocal (very fucking vocal) minority of incredibly online Sanders people who do harass literally everyone who dares speak out against Bernie. This is, probably, in part because a lot of Sander's supporters are incredibly young. But, I do think part of it is the rhetoric that comes from the campaign. You have Sirota, you have his press secretary, you have Nina Turner...then you have the whole rhetoric of "EVERYONE IS AGAINST US" that constantly comes from the campaign itself. We are a handful of weeks removed from Bernie having to apologize for his surrogate calling Joe Biden corrupt. Again, these are not isolated incidents. There is a pattern of behavior.

There were reporters who spoke to voters in NH and tweeted about their interactions. More than one voter told folks they like Bernie, but they do not like the idea of being associated with his supporters. These incredibly online yelling people may think they're helping, but they're not. They're hurting him. Again, not al Sander's supporters are like this. Not even a plurality. But the only way to not be aware of, at the very least, the narrative is to just ignore everything that's happened in the last 5 years.

i will vote for Bernie, but it will be in spite of his campaign and some of his supporters. Not because of them.
Or maybe it was entirely unrelated to Elijah Cummings

Some Sanders supporters and other progressives are upset because the platform committee, under pressure from the Obama administration, voted down a platform plank opposing the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). The disruptions came to a head when delegates started chanting, "No TPP!" over Cummings, who is the chair of the party platform drafting committee.
Oh and the NV Caucus stuff was all bunk
The Nevada State Democratic Party claimed to possess video footage of violent acts by Sanders supporters, yet did not release the footage. Lange also claimed to receive death threats and threats to the lives of her family, yet provided no evidence to substantiate her claims. Wikileaks later revealed that the DNC deliberately pushed the narrative of violent Sanders supporters in order to discredit the Sanders campaign.
At least post good examples if you're going to drag people like that.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,020
( •̀ω•́ ) 🖤
So, anyone that knows about polls and stuff, can you explain why Biden and Warren are flopping like they are?

I’d been following the polls and iirc, Biden and Warren were 1, and 3 respectively. What happened? Is this a normal occurrence with polls?
 
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