USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women (Read OP)

Oct 27, 2017
1,611
Australia
Mild? Someone here was saying we should abolish the NBA and WNBA and accommodate a basketball tiered league based on other metrics, just to name one example.

Look, I’m not saying changes shouldn’t or couldn’t be made, but to say it’s going to be easy is just not true. Accommodations, as you put it, for trans folks we should strive to give but what’s been suggested in this thread are far from “mild”.
Those are the people I'm talking about, lmao. The ones that are being all "why don't we just tear down sex segregated sports all together, then!?" instead of just letting people compete with others of their gender once they've met the requirements
 

JayBee

Alt-account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
1,332
There should be no divisions. There's no biological difference between a born gender and transgender after the sex change.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,601
An opinion anyway. And banning people like that will only skew this place even more. Look, I now these topics are sensible, but we should be able to have a conversation but people here seem to forget that. If someone says, "I'm ok with this I don't see a problem" and immediately are treated like racist pieces of shit then good luck having neutral discussion. Uninformed or having a different opinion than era's majority does not make you less. Folks in these forums seem to think that way and makes me really sad.
At this point, I wonder... so fucking what if it does? Minorities keep getting shit in 9/10 of gaming communities just for being who they are, so what's is the problem that they have a place that finally they can avoid reading the usual shit racist/sexist/homophobic "opinions"?

I dunno about other people but banning this shit to me is something to be proud, instead of allowing it for the sake of "discussion".
 

uzipukki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,407
At this point, I wonder... so fucking what if it does? Minorities keep getting shit in 9/10 of gaming communities just for being who they are, so what's is the problem that they have a place that finally they can avoid reading the usual shit racist/sexist/homophobic "opinions"?

I dunno about other people but banning this shit to me is something to be proud, instead of allowing it for the sake of "discussion".
But so much for the tolerant left? Where's the civility and understanding for the racists/transphobics/homophobics of the world? They deserve to be heard and understood, maybe we can meet in the middle.

eyeroll.gif.

And this is not directed towards you Ferrs . Don't want to give the impression I meant it towards you.
 

Deleted member 18095

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
205
At this point, I wonder... so fucking what if it does? Minorities keep getting shit in 9/10 of gaming communities just for being who they are, so what's is the problem that they have a place that finally they can avoid reading the usual shit racist/sexist/homophobic "opinions"?

I dunno about other people but banning this shit to me is something to be proud, instead of allowing it for the sake of "discussion".
If you put it that way you are right.

But so much for the tolerant left? Where's the civility and understanding for the racists/transphobics/homophobics of the world? They deserve to be heard and understood, maybe we can meet in the middle.

eyeroll.gif.

And this is not directed towards you Ferrs . Don't want to give the impression I meant it towards you.
?

Edit: ah now I understand. You are being sarcastic. Ok cool.
 
Oct 26, 2017
463
Males are born physically stronger than females. Are we arguing against this fact?
I am. As a cis male, I am.

BABIES ARE NOT BORN WITH ANY DISTINGUISHING STRENGTH CHARACTERISTICS.

I realize I may seem like splitting hairs, but have you ever SEEN a baby? Again, hormones around puberty start defining the extra muscle mass guys accumulate in adolescence. Again, read the studies in the OP.
 

Burbank

Member
Sep 9, 2018
292
Those are the people I'm talking about, lmao. The ones that are being all "why don't we just tear down sex segregated sports all together, then!?" instead of just letting people compete with others of their gender once they've met the requirements
What requirements though? They haven't been agreed upon in comp sports and need to be specified.

That you identify as a gender?
That you take gender specific hormones?
That you can change your chromosomal/DNA makeup to your identified gender (not possible atm obv)?

You can argue against all metrics depending on what you think is the main purpose for having gender brackets in the first place.
 

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
337
What requirements though? They haven't been agreed upon in comp sports and need to be specified.

That you identify as a gender?
That you take gender specific hormones?
That you can change your chromosomal/DNA makeup to your identified gender (not possible atm obv)?

You can argue against all metrics depending on what you think is the main purpose for having gender brackets in the first place.
We could just use the Olympic guidelines. And if needed refine them. They have been doing this for 15 years after all.
 

Marin-Lune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
343
There should be no divisions. There's no biological difference between a born gender and transgender after the sex change.
Regardless of the topic raised in the OP, one's agenda/sensibility on this topic, opinions etc., your statement bolded above is absolutely wrong from a purely scientific point of view. Emphasis on the word 'biological'.
 

Jam_Sandwich

Member
Oct 30, 2017
864
Honestly before reading the articles I was of the belief they had an inherent advantage and was skeptical.
Based on the data I see no harm in allowing trans to compete in there chosen fields.

I could spout something about drug cheats should be banned permanently though.. but here isn't the place or the time
Kelly Holmes is particularly vocal on that subject if asked about it!
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
733
The studies linked in the OP don't support the conclusion that this is settled science.

From the first study:

It should be noted that these results are only valid for distance running. Transgender women are taller and larger, on average, than 46,XX women (Gooren and Bunck, 2004, 425-429), and these differences probably would result in performance advantages in events in which height and strength are obvious precursors to success - events such as the shot put and the high jump. Conversely, transgender women will probably have a notable disadvantage in sports such as gymnastics, where greater size is an impediment to optimal performance.
It should be noted that this conclusion only applies to distance running and the author makes no claims as to the equality of performances, pre and post gender transition, in any other sport. As such, the study cannot, unequivocally, state that it is fair to allow to transgender women to compete against 46,XX women in all sports, although the study does make a powerful statement in favor of such a position.
From the second:

Androgen deprivation in M –F induces a loss of muscle area, but mean muscle area remained larger in reassigned M–F than in untreated F –M, though with an almost complete overlap.
Therefore, depending on the levels of arbitrariness one wants to accept, it is justifiable that reassigned M –F compete with other women.
Before cross-sex hormone administration, there was a large overlap in muscle area between M–F and F –M, but means in M–F were significantly higher than in F–M (Fig. 1). After 1 year of androgen deprivation, mean muscle area in M–F had decreased significantly but remained significantly greater than in F –M before testosterone treatment (Table 2), though with an overlap that was almost complete when androgen-deprived M–F were again compared to nontreated F–M (Fig. 1)
And the IOC has recently cut acceptable testosterone levels in half in what appears to be a targeted rule against a cis woman, Caster Semenya. Nevertheless, this testosterone threshold was the one transgender athletes had to be below in order to complete. Joanna Harper, the author of first study, recommended the rule change and has this to say on its effect on the discussion of transgender athletes:

"Transgender women after hormone therapy are taller, bigger and stronger on average than cisgender [those whose gender identity matches their birth gender] women. But that does not [necessarily] make it unfair. Let's say we are talking about a boxer. Boxing is divided by weight classes, and in a given weight class a trans woman boxer is not going to be bigger than the women she is fighting. In high levels of sport, transgender women are underrepresented. That indicates that whatever physical advantages trans women have and they certainly exist they are not nearly as large as the sociological disadvantages."
 

Mcjmetroid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Limerick, Ireland
Honestly before reading the articles I was of the belief they had an inherent advantage and was skeptical.
Based on the data I see no harm in allowing trans to compete in there chosen fields.
I was in the same boat. Interesting to see research on this.

This is going to be a long and bumpy road though.
This reminds me of in Ireland ( I'm not sure other countries have this) there is a ban on gay people giving blood despite no evidence to any danger.
it's just total bullshit.
 
Oct 28, 2017
528
I was in the same boat. Interesting to see research on this.

This is going to be a long and bumpy road though.
This reminds me of in Ireland ( I'm not sure other countries have this) there is a ban on gay people giving blood despite no evidence to any danger.
it's just total bullshit.
Ireland lifted that ban in 2017 but still has a slight caveat in place:
"The lifetime ban is being replaced by a deferral period for men who have sex with men. They will be allowed to give blood one year after they last had sex and so long as they meet other criteria. "
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-blood-transfusion-service-lifts-ban-on-gay-men-donating-blood-772611.html
 

PayOffWizard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
233
Manchester England
Personally i am against the ban but the studies linked in the OP are far from conclusive.
Its clear that more research needs to be done but until its proven one way or another inclusion seems the only sensible option.
 

Lishi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
297
And if they aren't competitive, they'll sink to lower performance tiers. Which is basically the status quo, as most people already view women's divisions as less performant relative to men's. And it would neatly solve any concerns over where transgender athletes belong.

And would relegate top female atlete in the top 1% percentile with slightly above average man who probably are in the top 33% percentile.

It's basicly fuck half of the the atlete in the word to resolve a problem that apparently don't exists.
 

Mcjmetroid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Limerick, Ireland
Ireland lifted that ban in 2017 but still has a slight caveat in place:
"The lifetime ban is being replaced by a deferral period for men who have sex with men. They will be allowed to give blood one year after they last had sex and so long as they meet other criteria. "
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-blood-transfusion-service-lifts-ban-on-gay-men-donating-blood-772611.html
I see! I didn't hear about that at all. Thanks for the update.
 

honest_ry

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,288
User Banned (1 Month): Transphobia. Numerous accumulated infractions.
I would say this is the right decision right now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,099
User Banned (1 month): Transphobia and numerous severe infractions
Why are people getting banned for "transphobia" here??? What is transphobic about stating there are clear body differences between men and women? One of my friends is trans female to male and we've had this same discussion before. He agrees there are clear advantages.... Does that make me transphobic because I agree with him?
 

Figgles

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,802
Keeping them from competing in the women's division for a year or two after they start HRT would be much more reasonable solution. Someone that trained in power lifting before transitioning is definitely going to have an advantage to start, but that advantage is going to slowly go away.
 

Cas

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,426
Just make it so pre-puberty transition is a requirement because that eliminates alot of factors that could be disputed.
Agreed.

As for the mod update, fair enough, the discussion can become toxic in these topics. Although I'm uncertain if the science is quite settled on the matter entirely.
 

skipgo

Member
Dec 28, 2018
2,230
Funny how people come out of the woodwork to defend the "sanctity" of whatever sport they don't care about when it comes to trans people.
 

Septy

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,102
United States
Am I missing something? The mod post first says that there is a study by Joanna Harper that "showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics". Reading the study though it is just a review of marathon times by 8 runners before and after transition and didn't measure physical characteristics.

Then the post mentions that there are additional studies to collaborate Joanna Harpers study but the Cosmos article doesn't actually mention any.

Then the third study isn't really a study but a literature review that cites the previous studies.
I tried bringing that up too but no one seems interested in it.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
733
Just make it so pre-puberty transition is a requirement because that eliminates alot of factors that could be disputed.
While in some sense this is the most fair it's not fair to the many individuals who don't have the opportunity to express their gender and explore transitioning before they enter puberty.

There's a large scale study planed to start later this year which will look at transgender people's athletic performance as they undergo hormone therapy. The science so far is pointing towards the physical discrepancies between post-transition women and cis women to be within the normal range you would see when only looking at cis women.

It really seems like all that matters is testosterone, and as long as that is kept at normal cis women levels then a m to f transgender athlete shouldn't have any competitive advantage two to three years after they begin therapy.

As Harper puts it, "If you're competing in the women's division, you should do so with women's hormone levels," she says. "I understand just how much difference they make."
 

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,035
The default answer should be to let everybody compete and figure things out from there.
But i presume these agencies tend to work in reverse order since forever.

Ignore the problem
Ban
Study it
grasp at straws
uphold the ban
get overwhelmed by evidence
unban
 

FreezeSSC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
681
The studies linked in the OP don't support the conclusion that this is settled science.

From the first study:





From the second:







And the IOC has recently cut acceptable testosterone levels in half in what appears to be a targeted rule against a cis woman, Caster Semenya. Nevertheless, this testosterone threshold was the one transgender athletes had to be below in order to complete. Joanna Harper, the author of first study, recommended the rule change and has this to say on its effect on the discussion of transgender athletes:
It would appear that more research into the subject needs to be made?? Definitely doesn't seem as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
 

SilentRob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,637
Every time I read this stuff I have to draw comparisons to literally every other sport and how different physicalities and human body types are just a normal thing to accept there...as long as it's not about your gender.

Like, what about Basketball? Everyone who is over 2m large have an inherent advantage over people who are not as large. Everyone who is over 2,1m have an avantage over those. Guess what: They are still not banned. Because that would be insane and differences in physicality are just an everyday reality. So if a guy is 15 cm taller than another guy, giving him an advantage in playing the sport? Well, that's just the way it is, we can't just forbid him from playing Basketball, can we? That would be crazy! But if a transgender person is 15 cm taller than another person? Nope! Banned.

Guess what: Certain men will have an advantage in power lifting compared to other men, merely because of their physicality. Men don't just have 1 range of abilities everyone falls under, where everyone has exactly the same changes as the next man. For some people it will be quite easy to gain weight and build up muscle mass, for others it would be REALLY hard. And yet, they are both Cis Men. Shouldn't we ban every Cis Man who was already really strong and heavy as a kid, to make sure not to give them an advantage over all thos Cis Men who had to train really hard to get where the other Cis Man almost got naturally?

It's inane and the thought process only works if you still think that sex and gender are completely binary and every women is comptley the same as every other woman, simply because they have a vagina.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
2,933
Nottingham, UK
Probably because people fearful of mod actions by questioning their post. Somehow eliminate all gender divisions in sports entirely is still a strong talking point though -_-
Or they could just allow women to compete with women. If it's as obvious as some of you make out it is then all the trans women will rise the top of their respective sports right? Then there will be a clear evidence base to work with.
 

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
337
Probably because people fearful of mod actions by questioning their post. Somehow eliminate all gender divisions in sports entirely is still a strong talking point though -_-
More data would be nice. It's just hard to get if we'd ban trans women from sports.

And what we have points to it being probably fine. If it wasn't trans women also would rule the Olympics by now anyway.

What is nice though is that we stopped getting thinly veiled "They are really just men" comments. Those made sport threads really hard to read. At least for me.
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,435
It would appear that more research into the subject needs to be made?? Definitely doesn't seem as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
Yeah when your headline study is on the self reported long distance running times of eight people over the course of several years, there is no way that you can state that there is no advantage in powerlifting which is an entirely different sport. There may not be an advantage but it should be evaluated.
 

Razmos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,073
I'd just Like to say that that mod edit in the OP is fantastic, bless you mods. Glad transphobia is not tolerated on this site
 

bulbasort

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
106
The trans woman in question ended up competing in a different organization and ended up winning a state record with a total score of 387kg (bench+squat+deadlift). She was competing against one other woman in her weight class. The world record in that class is... 730kg, almost double her score, set by a cis woman.

Source (and great thread):
https://twitter.com/gains_tweets/status/1092415565954715649
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,699

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
337
The trans woman in question ended up competing in a different organization and ended up winning a state record with a total score of 387kg (bench+squat+deadlift). She was competing against one other woman in her weight class. The world record in that class is... 730kg, almost double her score, set by a cis woman.

Source (and great thread):
https://twitter.com/gains_tweets/status/1092415565954715649
That puts things into perspective. Imagine the uproar if those numbers between a trans and cis woman were reversed.
 

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,113
Yeah, getting rid of gender divisions is not a solution at all. It’s too idealistic. If there’s anything frivolous I’ve learned from transitioning, it’s why women’s and men’s sports are divided. My baseline strength is pathetic now, to the point that I’m legitimately worried about mens’ ability to throw me around at their convenience.