Those are the people I'm talking about, lmao. The ones that are being all "why don't we just tear down sex segregated sports all together, then!?" instead of just letting people compete with others of their gender once they've met the requirements
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USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women (Read OP)
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Those are the people I'm talking about, lmao. The ones that are being all "why don't we just tear down sex segregated sports all together, then!?" instead of just letting people compete with others of their gender once they've met the requirements
You are saying this in reply to the people who want to tear down the walls completely and have everyone compete against everyone, right?
At this point, I wonder... so fucking what if it does? Minorities keep getting shit in 9/10 of gaming communities just for being who they are, so what's is the problem that they have a place that finally they can avoid reading the usual shit racist/sexist/homophobic "opinions"?
I dunno about other people but banning this shit to me is something to be proud, instead of allowing it for the sake of "discussion".
But so much for the tolerant left? Where's the civility and understanding for the racists/transphobics/homophobics of the world? They deserve to be heard and understood, maybe we can meet in the middle.
eyeroll.gif.
And this is not directed towards you Ferrs . Don't want to give the impression I meant it towards you.
If you put it that way you are right.
?
Edit: ah now I understand. You are being sarcastic. Ok cool.
Well that's not true. Unless you're taking part in some underground toddler fight club, in which case I want in.
You don't see this change occur until hormone development kicks in, which...read mod edit.
I am. As a cis male, I am.
BABIES ARE NOT BORN WITH ANY DISTINGUISHING STRENGTH CHARACTERISTICS.
I realize I may seem like splitting hairs, but have you ever SEEN a baby? Again, hormones around puberty start defining the extra muscle mass guys accumulate in adolescence. Again, read the studies in the OP.
Yes, because that's not a fact. Until puberty happens, their physical strength capabilities are about the same as each other.
What requirements though? They haven't been agreed upon in comp sports and need to be specified.
That you identify as a gender?
That you take gender specific hormones?
That you can change your chromosomal/DNA makeup to your identified gender (not possible atm obv)?
You can argue against all metrics depending on what you think is the main purpose for having gender brackets in the first place.
We could just use the Olympic guidelines. And if needed refine them. They have been doing this for 15 years after all.
Regardless of the topic raised in the OP, one's agenda/sensibility on this topic, opinions etc., your statement bolded above is absolutely wrong from a purely scientific point of view. Emphasis on the word 'biological'.
Honestly before reading the articles I was of the belief they had an inherent advantage and was skeptical.
Based on the data I see no harm in allowing trans to compete in there chosen fields.
I could spout something about drug cheats should be banned permanently though.. but here isn't the place or the time
Kelly Holmes is particularly vocal on that subject if asked about it!
Based on the data I see no harm in allowing trans to compete in there chosen fields.
I could spout something about drug cheats should be banned permanently though.. but here isn't the place or the time
Kelly Holmes is particularly vocal on that subject if asked about it!
The studies linked in the OP don't support the conclusion that this is settled science.
From the first study:
From the second:
And the IOC has recently cut acceptable testosterone levels in half in what appears to be a targeted rule against a cis woman, Caster Semenya. Nevertheless, this testosterone threshold was the one transgender athletes had to be below in order to complete. Joanna Harper, the author of first study, recommended the rule change and has this to say on its effect on the discussion of transgender athletes:
From the first study:
From the second:
And the IOC has recently cut acceptable testosterone levels in half in what appears to be a targeted rule against a cis woman, Caster Semenya. Nevertheless, this testosterone threshold was the one transgender athletes had to be below in order to complete. Joanna Harper, the author of first study, recommended the rule change and has this to say on its effect on the discussion of transgender athletes:
I was in the same boat. Interesting to see research on this.
This is going to be a long and bumpy road though.
This reminds me of in Ireland ( I'm not sure other countries have this) there is a ban on gay people giving blood despite no evidence to any danger.
it's just total bullshit.
Ireland lifted that ban in 2017 but still has a slight caveat in place:
"The lifetime ban is being replaced by a deferral period for men who have sex with men. They will be allowed to give blood one year after they last had sex and so long as they meet other criteria. "
https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...fts-ban-on-gay-men-donating-blood-772611.html
Personally i am against the ban but the studies linked in the OP are far from conclusive.
Its clear that more research needs to be done but until its proven one way or another inclusion seems the only sensible option.
Its clear that more research needs to be done but until its proven one way or another inclusion seems the only sensible option.
And would relegate top female atlete in the top 1% percentile with slightly above average man who probably are in the top 33% percentile.
It's basicly fuck half of the the atlete in the word to resolve a problem that apparently don't exists.
I see! I didn't hear about that at all. Thanks for the update.
We have the same law here in Germany. Would be interesting to know how this works for a pre-op trans woman who had her legal gender changed already.
This does happen some at the high school level, though it's almost entirely kickers who are protected.
Women are allowed to play football and they do it all over the country.
User Banned (1 month): Transphobia and numerous severe infractions
Why are people getting banned for "transphobia" here??? What is transphobic about stating there are clear body differences between men and women? One of my friends is trans female to male and we've had this same discussion before. He agrees there are clear advantages.... Does that make me transphobic because I agree with him?
Keeping them from competing in the women's division for a year or two after they start HRT would be much more reasonable solution. Someone that trained in power lifting before transitioning is definitely going to have an advantage to start, but that advantage is going to slowly go away.
And some women are born physically stronger than other women, so it's a moot point.
Agreed.
As for the mod update, fair enough, the discussion can become toxic in these topics. Although I'm uncertain if the science is quite settled on the matter entirely.
I tried bringing that up too but no one seems interested in it.
While in some sense this is the most fair it's not fair to the many individuals who don't have the opportunity to express their gender and explore transitioning before they enter puberty.
There's a large scale study planed to start later this year which will look at transgender people's athletic performance as they undergo hormone therapy. The science so far is pointing towards the physical discrepancies between post-transition women and cis women to be within the normal range you would see when only looking at cis women.
It really seems like all that matters is testosterone, and as long as that is kept at normal cis women levels then a m to f transgender athlete shouldn't have any competitive advantage two to three years after they begin therapy.
As Harper puts it, "If you're competing in the women's division, you should do so with women's hormone levels," she says. "I understand just how much difference they make."
It would appear that more research into the subject needs to be made?? Definitely doesn't seem as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
Probably because people fearful of mod actions by questioning their post. Somehow eliminate all gender divisions in sports entirely is still a strong talking point though -_-
Every time I read this stuff I have to draw comparisons to literally every other sport and how different physicalities and human body types are just a normal thing to accept there...as long as it's not about your gender.
Like, what about Basketball? Everyone who is over 2m large have an inherent advantage over people who are not as large. Everyone who is over 2,1m have an avantage over those. Guess what: They are still not banned. Because that would be insane and differences in physicality are just an everyday reality. So if a guy is 15 cm taller than another guy, giving him an advantage in playing the sport? Well, that's just the way it is, we can't just forbid him from playing Basketball, can we? That would be crazy! But if a transgender person is 15 cm taller than another person? Nope! Banned.
Guess what: Certain men will have an advantage in power lifting compared to other men, merely because of their physicality. Men don't just have 1 range of abilities everyone falls under, where everyone has exactly the same changes as the next man. For some people it will be quite easy to gain weight and build up muscle mass, for others it would be REALLY hard. And yet, they are both Cis Men. Shouldn't we ban every Cis Man who was already really strong and heavy as a kid, to make sure not to give them an advantage over all thos Cis Men who had to train really hard to get where the other Cis Man almost got naturally?
It's inane and the thought process only works if you still think that sex and gender are completely binary and every women is comptley the same as every other woman, simply because they have a vagina.
Like, what about Basketball? Everyone who is over 2m large have an inherent advantage over people who are not as large. Everyone who is over 2,1m have an avantage over those. Guess what: They are still not banned. Because that would be insane and differences in physicality are just an everyday reality. So if a guy is 15 cm taller than another guy, giving him an advantage in playing the sport? Well, that's just the way it is, we can't just forbid him from playing Basketball, can we? That would be crazy! But if a transgender person is 15 cm taller than another person? Nope! Banned.
Guess what: Certain men will have an advantage in power lifting compared to other men, merely because of their physicality. Men don't just have 1 range of abilities everyone falls under, where everyone has exactly the same changes as the next man. For some people it will be quite easy to gain weight and build up muscle mass, for others it would be REALLY hard. And yet, they are both Cis Men. Shouldn't we ban every Cis Man who was already really strong and heavy as a kid, to make sure not to give them an advantage over all thos Cis Men who had to train really hard to get where the other Cis Man almost got naturally?
It's inane and the thought process only works if you still think that sex and gender are completely binary and every women is comptley the same as every other woman, simply because they have a vagina.
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Or they could just allow women to compete with women. If it's as obvious as some of you make out it is then all the trans women will rise the top of their respective sports right? Then there will be a clear evidence base to work with.
More data would be nice. It's just hard to get if we'd ban trans women from sports.
And what we have points to it being probably fine. If it wasn't trans women also would rule the Olympics by now anyway.
What is nice though is that we stopped getting thinly veiled "They are really just men" comments. Those made sport threads really hard to read. At least for me.
Yeah when your headline study is on the self reported long distance running times of eight people over the course of several years, there is no way that you can state that there is no advantage in powerlifting which is an entirely different sport. There may not be an advantage but it should be evaluated.
The trans woman in question ended up competing in a different organization and ended up winning a state record with a total score of 387kg (bench+squat+deadlift). She was competing against one other woman in her weight class. The world record in that class is... 730kg, almost double her score, set by a cis woman.
Source (and great thread):
https://twitter.com/gains_tweets/status/1092415565954715649
Source (and great thread):
https://twitter.com/gains_tweets/status/1092415565954715649
In general, males are only really physically stronger after puberty. That's why girls can compete with guys in HS wrestling, but after guys hit college, no girl can really compete.
I put mine on a timeout if he doesn't hit his 135lb bench rep for the week.
That puts things into perspective. Imagine the uproar if those numbers between a trans and cis woman were reversed.
Yeah, getting rid of gender divisions is not a solution at all. It's too idealistic. If there's anything frivolous I've learned from transitioning, it's why women's and men's sports are divided. My baseline strength is pathetic now, to the point that I'm legitimately worried about mens' ability to throw me around at their convenience.