USGamer: "The Epic Games Store is Spyware:" How a Toxic Accusation Was Started by Anti-Chinese Sentiment (Read Staff Post(s))

benzopil · Apr 5, 2019

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/th...usation-was-started-by-anti-chinese-sentiment

About that Reddit post calling EGS a spyware

In the post, the user digs around the Epic Games Store and discovers what they say are troubling instances of the Epic Games Store trying to access information they shouldn't be. Only, that isn't true. In a recent post on the Facepunch forums titled, "Epic Games Store Is Shit – But It's Not Spyware," a user refutes, line-by-line, each point the Reddit thread makes that's used as evidence that the Epic Games Store is spyware.

In the Reddit thread, user u/notte_m_portent writes, "One of the first things I noticed is that EGS likes to enumerate running processes on your computer… More worrying is that [Epic Games Store] really likes reading about your root certificates. Like, a lot."
.matt on Facepunch responds to both points as being inaccurate. EGS isn't enumerating processes, he says, but instead writes, "this is literally how tools like Procman and Fiddler work, they have injected themselves into the running process." As for root certificates, .matt writes, "It is a launcher based around a web browers, this is how HTTPS works, of course it has to check your available certificate authorities—every other Electron application including Discord and Steam do this."

About xenophobia

Anti-Chinese sentiments have deeper roots in the video game community too, as Chinese players are often associated with industries like gold farming in online MMORPGs like World of WarCraft and hacking. That's not to say hacking and gold farming aren't realities in China, but rather the current climate in politics and entertainment regarding China have been intersecting for some time.

But to assert that Epic Games is a front for espionage at the behest of the Chinese government has troubling roots, and a poor foundation built on paranoia and xenophobia.

Tim Sweeney added this:

SigSig · Apr 5, 2019

era was happy to follow along, so yeah, maybe not just single out reddit there

Maternal Heart · Apr 5, 2019

Wait, did people actually argue that Epic Games is a front for espionage at the behest of the Chinese government? Are you serious?

VERSAT1L · Apr 5, 2019

That's an epic accusation

Deleted member 3093 · Apr 5, 2019

"It is a launcher based around a web browers, this is how HTTPS works, of course it has to check your available certificate authorities—every other Electron application including Discord and Steam do this."

This is what really bothers me. EGS is a thing that is and should be criticized, but people are straight up making up things to justify further criticism .

vestan · Apr 5, 2019

I've said it before, but the xenophobia, conspiracy theories and general fear-mongering in these threads is wack. On ERA of all places too!

It's perfectly fine to be upset about the Epic Games Store stuff but when you're pulling shit like "they're spying for the Chinese government!!111" out of your ass, it's time to step back from the computer for a bit.

Imran · Apr 5, 2019

The Chinese xenophobia and race science has been bubbling up for a while and it's been observable/fucked up.

SigSig · Apr 5, 2019

Maternal Heart said:
Wait, did people actually argue that Epic Games is a front for espionage at the behest of the Chinese government? Are you serious?

It's not a new thing. Everything from China is "spyware". Just look at any Huawei-related post on etc-side. The Jingoism is strong.

Assenzio · Apr 5, 2019

Hating the shitty Chinese government has nothing to do with xenophobia. I hate it even more because I love Chine and chinese people as whole.

And I am saying this as a non detractor of Epic.

Imran · Apr 5, 2019

A.By said:
"It is a launcher based around a web browers, this is how HTTPS works, of course it has to check your available certificate authorities—every other Electron application including Discord and Steam do this."

This is what really bothers me. EGS is a thing that is and should be criticized, but people are straight up making up things to justify further criticism .

People on Twitter responded to this article, the one linked in the OP, with the Reddit thread the article takes to task.

Bricktop · Apr 5, 2019

This is a huge thing even here on ERA. Every thread about the EGS is riddled with accusations about spyware and other nonsense. People are just stupid and latch on to anything and everything if it furthers their agenda.

Deleted member 27751 · Apr 5, 2019

But wait it was found to be looking at Steam data, thus a definition of spyware no? In that it is looking at files inappropriate to its operation? I agree about the Chinese government tinfoil theories being bogus but I don't like that this article and the bandwagon of Tim is trying to wash off that Epic refused to use the Steam API to access Steam data and instead hooked into the Steam folders for said data.

I'm happy to be proven wrong there but I even remember Tim and Co stating that yes they were in fact doing it the wrong way and had to quickly implement Steam API support.

Maternal Heart · Apr 5, 2019

SigSig said:
It's not a new thing. Everything from China is "spyware". Just look at any Huawei-related post on etc-side. The Jingoism is strong.

Wow.

Amauri14 · Apr 5, 2019

Oh wait, so people went ahead and created more rumors? Because the only thing I had heard before, and believe, was that it scanned your Steam data.

eonden · Apr 5, 2019

Talk about misrepresenting the issue and only focusing on the racist part of the reddit thread (instead of the more grounded issues of the thread in here). It also stands the ground that the facepuncher post is less in depth than that same thread and was made way after the thing was removed. So yeah, I trust the thread in here more than facepuncher post.

But hey, sure, lets say all complains about safety in Epic is due to racism.

Amauri14 said:
Oh wait, so people went ahead and created more rumors? Because the only thing I had heard before, and believe, was that it scanned your Steam data.

Those were the "rumors" (that turned out to be true, they just said that they only send your friend list by not using the API). Some people just try and push the Tencent side (which is BS) and most of the media latched to that.

Deleted member 3093 · Apr 5, 2019

Imran said:
People on Twitter responded to this article, the one linked in the OP, with the Reddit thread the article takes to task.

lmao

That's pretty wack.

Imran · Apr 5, 2019

Bricktop said:
This is a huge thing even here on ERA. Every thread about the EGS is riddled with accusations about spyware and other nonsense. People are just stupid and latch on to anything and everything if it furthers their agenda.

The same crew of people rile everyone up every single time. I almost wish they were getting paid, even though I know they aren't, because it would at least make it less sad.

Umbrella Carp · Apr 5, 2019

Normally I would say this is conspiratorial nonsense, but considering the shadiness of the likes of Huawei and how deeply they have penetrated the west, these days you just can't underestimate the chinese government and their influence.

Porky · Apr 5, 2019

Era was super guilty of this too. Obvious it came from a place of ignorance, lack of understanding of technology and a seemingly innate desire to whine.

RTX ON · Apr 5, 2019

PSA Era, all your shit is made in China. So yeah, good luck with that.

This will get far worse before it gets better unfortunately.

AHA-Lambda · Apr 5, 2019

eonden said:
Talk about misrepresenting the issue and only focusing on the racist part of the reddit thread (instead of the more grounded issues of the thread in here). It also stands the ground that the facepuncher post is less in depth than that same thread and was made way after S

But hey, sure, lets say all complains about safety in Epic is due to racism.

Yeah this absolutely.
The concerns many people here had about this issue were not based in any xenophobic intent at all.

Deleted member 49804 · Apr 5, 2019

Wow what a horrible article and hot take. Who's the writer, so I can ignore the work of that person going forward?

Deleted member 27751 · Apr 5, 2019

Umbrella Carp said:
Normally I would say this is conspiratorial nonsense, but considering the shadiness of the likes of Huawei and how deeply they have penetrated the west, these days you just can't underestimate the chinese government and their influence.

It is fine to be skeptical on factual notion but conspiracy theories help no one and simply bolster xenophobic mindsets. Not all Chinese brands are co-conspiring with the government to "bring down the America" like many want to believe.

Porky said:
Era was super guilty of this too. Obvious it came from a place of ignorance, lack of understanding of technology and a seemingly innate desire to whine.

Funny enough no. Era's thread was based on the spyware of Epic looking into the Steam data and pulling out far more than just friends names but what you had in your library and how long you played it for etc. The Chinese conspiracy theories were streamed mainly on the Reddit thread or littered throughout the Era one by random people trying to rile up xenophobia.

SigSig · Apr 5, 2019

Aaaaand the FUD is starting. Disappointing.
Let's not trust actual security researchers, but instead some rando on reddit because his post is longer lmao
gamers really don't know shit about technology

Deleted member 2809 · Apr 5, 2019

Toxic is the worst buzzword I swear

Fanta · Apr 5, 2019

Might want to inform Valve that then:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...-to-fix-game-launcher-after-privacy-concerns/

We are looking into what information the Epic launcher collects from Steam.

The Steam Client locally saves data such as the list of games you own, your friends list and saved login tokens (similar to information stored in web browser cookies). This is private user data, stored on the user's home machine and is not intended to be used by other programs or uploaded to any 3rd party service.

Interested users can find localconfig.vdf and other Steam configuration files in their Steam Client's installation directory and open them in a text editor to see what data is contained in these files. They can also view all data related to their Steam account at: https://help.steampowered.com/en/accountdata

Datajoy · Apr 5, 2019

Umbrella Carp said:
Normally I would say this is conspiratorial nonsense, but considering the shadiness of the likes of Huawei and how deeply they have penetrated the west, these days you just can't underestimate the chinese government and their influence.

This is exactly the kind of formless yellow peril sentiment that the thread is talking about.

"Chinese company's nefarious tentacles have already deeply infiltrated the west.. therefore nothing Chinese can be trusted."

Deleted member 43077 · Apr 5, 2019

honestly still suprises me people took it so seriously. Reminded me of when Xbox One was bundled with Kinect and the NSA was gonna spy on us all and see us naked in the living room :P

Kinsei · Apr 5, 2019

Wait, people thought that EGS was collecting data for the Chinese government? Fucking what?

Talus · Apr 5, 2019

As the client gets better, hopefully some of those more vocal haters start to lay off with the fear mongering and huge hate-on for Epic. It infects every thread and PC game announcement here... and the worst thing is.. these people are the type who report every post they don't agree with as harassment.

SinCityAssassin · Apr 5, 2019

I ain't a fan of epic store in the slightest, but the dissenting opinions about how this is somehow a chinese data mining front is why I barely talk in those threads.

TheDarkKnight · Apr 5, 2019

They have been caught mining steam information w/o consent with the flimsiest excuse that nobody should allow. That is spyware to me

I don't try to conflate that into some anti-Chinese sentiment. But epic (not tencent) has already been caught doing incredibly shady practices. Those are the facts

Articles like these muddy the waters and allow people to hand wave legitimate issues with EGS accessing data they should never do on people's computers.

unicornKnight · Apr 5, 2019

Seems like a clever stunt from Epic, by making ridiculous accusations against them they try to win people's hearts. It's in our nature to side with the one being bullied.

daninthemix · Apr 5, 2019

I don't think there's any more distrust here than there would be if Epic had a 40% Russian stakeholder.

Bhonar · Apr 5, 2019

Datajoy said:
This is exactly the kind of formless yellow peril sentiment that the thread is talking about.

"Chinese company's nefarious tentacles have already deeply infiltrated the west.. therefore nothing Chinese can be trusted."

is it specifically true about Huawei though? I've never read into the subject myself

LewieP · Apr 5, 2019

Perhaps they could assure people that they are not spying on them by updating their privacy policy to reflect this.

I found this analysis of their privacy policy from a lawyer to be particularly insightful

What possible justification do they have for a privacy policy giving them such extensive rights to collect data from you if they don't intend to ever collect data so extensively?

I'm not suggesting that they are doing do for the Chinese government.

funky · Apr 5, 2019

Umbrella Carp said:
Normally I would say this is conspiratorial nonsense, but considering the shadiness of the likes of Huawei and how deeply they have penetrated the west, these days you just can't underestimate the chinese government and their influence.

"I'm not racist but"

Umbrella Carp · Apr 5, 2019

funky said:
"I'm not racist but"

Oh my god, honestly....What has race got to do with it?

SigSig · Apr 5, 2019

LewieP said:
What possible justification do they have for a privacy policy giving them such extensive rights to collect data from you if they don't intend to ever collect data so extensively?

I'm not suggesting that they are doing do for the Chinese government.

Have you read any privacy policy of anything ever? they are all full of "and basically we may do anything for any reason at all" statements.

Deleted member 45414 · Apr 5, 2019

Okay, but wasn't the EGS still scraping data?

Even if it's ridiculous to assume it's for Tencent or anything like that, isn't it still shady as fuck?

Also look at where trusting companies with your data has gotten us, in regards to Facebook.

Is Epic any more trustworthy?

Deleted member 27751 · Apr 5, 2019

So I went and looked back at the Era thread on the topic of Epic Game Store lifting Steam data through the Steam folder and not through the API and, yep, as I guessed it was OP'ed as a look at the data scraping: https://www.resetera.com/threads/de...ry-up2-valve-responds-see-threadmarks.105385/

Nowhere is there mention of Chinese government influence in the OP and it was indeed only coming from the end part of the Reddit thread as if a throw in conspiracy was casual banter. The main argument was and has always been Epic scraping Steam data illegitimately which Epic even confessed was the case and they had to implement the Steam API. So this article is not actually that great, because it is muddling in the core issue being Epic conducting scraping of data that they should not have been doing due to a legal, Steam-supported API.

In other words, this US Gamer article is poop. It is skewing on a very minor part of the overall issue, which is definitely worth a discussion because xenophobia is very easy to blend into any argument these days without actually realising you are partaking in it but this just confuddles the main argument.

Remij said:
As the client gets better, hopefully some of those more vocal haters start to lay off with the fear mongering and huge hate-on for Epic. It infects every thread and PC game announcement here... and the worst thing is.. these people are the type who report every post they don't agree with as harassment.

Hand-waving of legitimate arguments against Epic's conduct so far should not be allowed and is just stifling proper discussion on the topic. You saying that those who are "more vocal" are just haters and need to lay off Epic is simply ignoring legitimate arguments against which for the most part are actually quite sound and entirely supportive of most of what Epic is doing. The majority in Era threads even encourage Epic to be a part of the PC platform, simply the exclusivity bandwagon is not needed and just fracturing a market in which Epic previously stated they hated such monopolies.

Linus815 · Apr 5, 2019

xenophobia, lmao
hating chinese corporations or their AWFUL government(winnie the pooh) has nothing to do with hating chinese people. The less tencent is involved with something, the better. The more, the worse. I don't think EGS is spying for the chinese government, but if they did have majority stake (which they almost do) in Epic, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case. It's not just a meme. I don't blame people for being vary.

AHA-Lambda · Apr 5, 2019

LewieP said:
Perhaps they could assure people that they are not spying on them by updating their privacy policy to reflect this.

I found this analysis of their privacy policy from a lawyer to be particularly insightful

What possible justification do they have for a privacy policy giving them such extensive rights to collect data from you if they don't intend to ever collect data so extensively?

I'm not suggesting that they are doing do for the Chinese government.

Exactly.
I'm not concerned about any potential Chinese influence behind EGS spying on me. I'm concerned flat out plainly that EGS is spying on me.

This is a garbage article that completely misrepresents the issue, and another example of the games media's ineptitude towards the EGS issue.

SigSig · Apr 5, 2019

MechaBreaker said:
Okay, but wasn't the EGS still scraping data?

Even if it's ridiculous to assume it's for Tencent or anything like that, isn't it still shady as fuck?

It allows you to (opt-in) import your steam friends. nothing I've read anywhere suggests, that they collect anything more than that. yes, it should have been done through their API, no that doesn't make it spyware.

spineduke · Apr 5, 2019

Yes, people have a problem with Epic because of the Chinese

/s

you can't be serious with this shit

Joco · Apr 5, 2019

Disliking the Chinese government and not trusting what is basically an extension of it (Tencent) =/= racism and hating the Chinese. Saying so is absurd.

Umbrella Carp · Apr 5, 2019

Joco said:
Disliking the Chinese government and not trusting what is basically an extension of it (Tencent) =/= racism and hating the Chinese. Saying so is absurd.

Thank you.

LewieP · Apr 5, 2019

SigSig said:
Have you read any privacy policy of anything ever? they are all full of "and basically we may do anything for any reason at all" statements.

Have you watched the analysis from a lawyer who writes many privacy policies for games companies and compares the epic store one to what he considers to be typical that I posted?

Datajoy · Apr 5, 2019

Bhonar said:
is it specifically true about Huawei though? I've never read into the subject myself

Different western countries have made different assessments about the security risks of working with Huawei on critical telecoms infrastructure. I believe the US has banned it, but that is also within the context of an overall nadir in relations FWIW. I think the EU has decided to leave the decision up to individual member states.

So some countries think there is a risk to exposure. But that doesn't equate to "Huawei has already deeply penetrated the west" which is typcal scare-monger yellow peril type rhetoric.

Deleted member 1476 · Apr 5, 2019

Garbage take, Epic trying to muddy the waters by trying to get sympathy evoking a fringe opinion like it was the majority.

Not going to fall for this bullshit.

USGamer: "The Epic Games Store is Spyware:" How a Toxic Accusation Was Started by Anti-Chinese Sentiment (Read Staff Post(s))

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