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"Boys" is demeaning in several ways. As a man its like, "No, I'm not a child, I'm a man. Don't call me a child". I've worked my whole life and earned that right through my actions and decisions.

It has also be used as a racial slur against p.o.c. usually by piece of shit authorities, "Hey BOY, you on the wrong side of town?" But any piece of shit sub human can use it, "Watchu lookin at BOY!?"

So yeah, people shouldn't be using it for any reason. It's just insensitive in so many ways.

I don't have a problem with "guys" as a general term addressing a room. It may depend on where you are from. I'm from NJ and FL and for example up north it would be "you guys" or I've even heard "yous guys" whereas down south its "y'all". So for me having lived in both locales I actually mix the two by saying "y'all guys". I get strange looks or even "Who says that up here?" Me. I just said it didn't I?
 

Stock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
489
Luxembourg
The dude bro banter in online gaming has turned me off from playing Overwatch. Also, pretty bad in Destiny LFG discord channels (need to be less socially anxious and use our own Era discord in the future). The assumptions that an online party of strangers are all straight white males (or better be) is so frustrating and often kills my mood to play and/or chat.

Working on stopping my own lazy catch all phrases, by trying to be more mindful of others when speaking (or in this case typing). I occasionally catch myself saying, "guys", "man", or "fellas" and make note to mentally pause in order to break the bad habit. Not only are the phrases a bit juvenile, but are not accurate in many social situations where a more neutral phrase would be better suited.
 

Deleted member 10611

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
738
I'll use "guys" when in my very small social circle of gaming friends because we're all guys, but otherwise I go gender-neutral all the time, usually "y'all".
 

MrNewVegas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,718
Until the 1500s, we called one kind "gay girls" and the other kind "knave girls". A "boy" was a male servant. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the real world refer to a group of people as "boys". I've only ever seen it in American movies, and/or comedy skits. You know, the meddling mother comes into the room with snacks and nasally says, "How are you boys doing?" It seems, in the context of this thread, that it's some kind of sporting culture thing bleeding into gaming culture?
You've never seen a modern streamer throw out a "LETS GO BOYS!!!!!" when they do something exciting lol?
 

Stuggernaut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,902
Seattle, WA, USA
This same issue has come up at my wife's work only with the word "guys". Honestly, I can't keep up with this stuff, and I am too old to change my ways. The new world confuses me!
 

borat

Banned
Jan 2, 2018
534
Toys.

E4ZYS3.gif

lol
 
Nov 7, 2017
21
With all due respect OP, I think it's not too big of a deal in my opinion. However, you are certainly valid to feel the way you feel, and you explained your points very well.

I work with 90% women, and we always say "guys", no one minds. Obviously I wouldn't say "boys"

I myself do say guys, unless I know I'm in a group with boys, then i say "alright boys what's the plan"

In my opinion it just feels good and gives that sense of comraderie you know? Makes coop games a lot more fun and immersive.

Although I dont think it's too big of a deal to warrant some kind of "movement", I would definitely find it weird if I were a girl or not a Male and someone referred to me as one. Or vice versa. Very interesting topic for sure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
My opinion is that I absolutely will continue to use what I perceive to be gender neutral terms like boys and guys to refer to a general group of people. But if someone did tell me they were offended by that I would simply make a note to be respectful with that particular person. But I don't know. The idea that moving forward I will stop referring to general groups of people as guys seems ridiculous to me. I've read through the OP and I don't see how the practice is offensive. I'm not necesssarily seeing what being non-binary has to do with it. If it was a woman I'd feel the same way. The word "guys" especially - in colloquial terms it's quite literally used as a gender neutral catch-all/greeting.

'Guys' is catch-all, again, because male is default. It's inherently not gender-neutral.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,976
I just accidentally used the word guys at the worse possible time earlier today.

"Thanks alot guys, have a good day" when talking to Starbucks staff.

I've accidentally done it before when talking to two female co-workers. They were the only individuals there too. >_< I feel weird using the word "ladies". Or maybe "You two"... eh don't like that one either.

I'm just going to stick with "Y'all"...like I usually do. Sometimes I slip up.
 

Mr. Capo

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
527
This needs to be the drop song for Apex Legends.
Picture this:

You're chatting with the boys, about to start a game of Apex Legends and having a good life when suddenly Kenny Loggins starts playing. You then grab a nice cold bottle of Mike's Hard Lemonade while you're dropping and jamming it to the song.
 

What-ok

Member
Dec 13, 2017
3,038
PDX OR
I have yet to meet someone in the PNW after 30 years that uses y'all unless they are making fun of someone from the south.
One day we might meet. I'm actually from the Midwest but I've been in the PNW since 98. I just like it and the word never carried any baggage from it. (=

EDIT* I should of said that I say it and not "the PNW"
 
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blitzblake

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
3,171
why is it that if I replace "boys" with "girls" or "ladies" I feel like I'm gonna get arrested?

"Let's go girls."
"You girls ready"
"Where we landing girls"
 

Dark_Castle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,147
OP, what's your stance on the classic 'ladies and gentlemen' opener? Must be awkward for people who identify as non-binary or another.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Switching from "guys" to "y'all" or "folks" is legitimately harder for me than learning how to use singular "they/them/their". It feels so far out of my comfortable dialect, and I still don't think I agree with ceding "guys" as gendered, if there's even much of a push to do so in the first place.

I cringe at "boys" every time though. It's seems dumb even before getting into gender politics.
 

Young Liar

Member
Nov 30, 2017
3,420
Thanks for bringing this up, OP. I've been using "folks" and "y'all" to replace "guys" as a catch-all term.

Folks in this thread who for whatever reason are against this, it's really not that hard. You lose absolutely nothing for making this change and gain the respect of people who deserve the baseline level of respect that we automatically give to straight men.

EDIT: FYI, I'm a Filipino who has lived in the Philippines my entire life and learned English as a second language. If a person like me from a country halfway across the world relative to America can adjust to use "folks" and "y'all" or any other non-gendered catch-all pronoun, I don't think anyone with English as their first or only language has an excuse.
 
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Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,380
I often use the word "boys" interchangeably between "queens", and "y'all" amongst my friends. That said, if ever asked to cut it out if one was upset by any phrasing, I would. I will admit my major obstacle is they/them because of my own conditioning that I view that as "groups" and not singular, but I admit this error is entirely my own. That's the one I actively catch myself making mistakes of, and it happens only once in a while, but when it does I make sure to be acting like I'm in a minefield right after to avoid it again.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
OP, what's your stance on the classic 'ladies and gentlemen' opener? Must be awkward for people who identify as non-binary or another.

wowza

just because something was/has been the norm for a long period of time, doesn't justify it remaining as is. you could argue it's time for that to change to. and if the change isn't bringing anybody down - and is bringing others up - well then it's not a bad thing at all. it's a good thing. and isn't that something we should strive for?
 

Dr Shasta

Banned
Feb 12, 2019
785
OP thanks for raising awareness. I will make a conscious effort to be respectful with my language in this regard.
 

chicken_pasta

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
893
Because guys is not going to stop. It's fully ingrained. It's grown to mean "everyone" and while it's a word rooted in the male gender, I personally am fine with it.

But "boy" is male. It's really worrying that, in a time when gender identity is in focus and we're understanding more and more about it and how it's important to recognise, that people would try to push the word "boys" as a catch-all.

I honestly don't know how to make this any more clear than I did in the OP. I guess if you can't understand you won't.
"Guy" is also male. As with many words and expressions in both written and spoken language, guy has lost the original meaning it had, and you explicitly say so in your post. It could also be argued "boys" is walking on that same path.

My recommendation, don't overthink language, as it is as imperfect as the speakers. Words fall in and out of use, and at one point become so detached from the original meaning, that they may as well be a new word.
 

Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
I have seen girls says "lets go guys" and it was just a group of girls only. (In an episode of Ink Master where 3 girls was toguether) As a non native english speaker i found it strange why she didnt just say "lets go girls".
Personally i use "lets go ppl" cuz in my main language i say something similar.
 

MZZ

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,249
In the words of a certain good burger employee ' "I'm a dude, He's a dude, She's a dude, Cause we're all dudes. Hey!"

Seriously though I never heard anyone call out a group with girls, boys. I thought it was awkward before to call a group "guys". But since girls in my circle calls the group as guys, I got used to it and its my default callout.

I see in media in military setting that a superior officer will call their underlings ladies. Is that okay in 2019?

Honestly I wont mind any of this at all. It's language and it evolves for the better or worse. But I can see this being offensive to someone who is sensitive about gender stuff.
 

GiantBreadbug

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,992
Trying to eliminate "guys" from my vocabulary for this reason, as well as the fact that I already use y'all and folks so it hasn't been too hard. Making an effort to cut gendered language from one's life isn't some arduous thing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,508
Bandung Indonesia
I'm really disappointed in the criticisms of the use of the word "y'all". I'm not even a southerner, but it seems pretty prejudiced to me to say that people sound dumb when using that word, considering the stigmas about the lack of intelligence that southerners have to deal with.

I say we embrace the term. It doesn't have to be the only gender-neutral word we use, but we shouldn't reject it on the basis of irrational beliefs.

I dislike using it because it seems like such an exclusively American thing to do and I'm not an American.
 

Kaz Mk II

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,635
I'd stop it to maybe accommodate for someone in the group who expresses discomfort with it but the thing is most of the time no one does, even when in groups with women (primarily in BR games).

It may be due to some of the women I've played games with but they too generally take part in the gendered "boys" or "dude" line of speaking. Not sure if I've played with any non binary/trans people but again no one has expressed discomfort about it to me ever. Though it's not like I use it all the time, generally I jokingly using the meme at this point "where we droppin boys" or might casually refer to someone as "my boy/dude" on discord even without knowing their sex/identity. The way I see it, I dont need to change any speech patterns that nobody calls out and even if one person does it really only affects my interactions with them specifically and not speech in general.

But I'm not here to tell you how to feel, if enough people are made uncomfortable or excluded by it, make it known in your circles (though it might be cringey if some guy was telling me to stop on behalf of a woman there who didn't say anything, something similar has happened before), make other language trendy enough to be used widely. I'm sure there's plenty of shit I used to say back in highschool that I dont anymore because something else became trendy or widely used in my circles.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
The problem you will always have with online interactions is people want to be their "authentic" selves. The way they speak online is typically the way they speak when they are most comfortable in real life. For instance I call my wife and friends (both male and female) "man" a lot, that is just my natural response and very much in line with my hippy persona. If I'm online, my whole sentence structure is stilted because I never write how I speak because I remove "man" constantly, you know what I mean man?
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I'm really disappointed in the criticisms of the use of the word "y'all". I'm not even a southerner, but it seems pretty prejudiced to me to say that people sound dumb when using that word, considering the stigmas about the lack of intelligence that southerners have to deal with.

I say we embrace the term. It doesn't have to be the only gender-neutral word we use, but we shouldn't reject it on the basis of irrational beliefs.
I don't think southern dialects sound dumb. It just feels very unnatural to randomly start using y'all and folks when the rest of your dialect and the dialect of everyone around you isn't southern at all and you never hear those words.

It might be a regional thing for how natural it feels to use it, even beyond the binary of southern or not.

I agree a little discomfort is worth saving the bigger discomfort of others, but I'm still not sure how discomforting "guys" is.
 

Dantendo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
228
South Australia
With all due respect, as someone born in the early 80's and taught that the world doesn't owe me anything, I cant sympathize with people taking offence to harmless words with no malice intended.

Must be a generational thing, the act of seeking offence.

The world would be a better place if everyone just chilled the fuck out and enjoyed life.
 

lake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,289
The fact that "guys" was not in the least gender-neutral first popped onto my radar thanks to a 2002 article in Bitch magazine called The Common Guy. Contrary to some of the complaints I'm seeing here, it was not difficult in the least to retrain myself to say y'all instead... I actually really like using that term, despite never living where it originated.

Edit: Oh, in response to the post above me, I was born slightly before the early '80s, so. That means nothing.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
Yeah - with all due respect, I understand it can upset you, but realistically, this just won't ever change. We'll all be worm food in the ground and English speakers will still be using guys or boys to refer to a large group of people as a normal part of their vocabulary regardless of audience.

On a personal level, i'd never change this in my own verbal lexicon. Words that are offensive, sure, but this is not one of those words. And if I were the type of person who were offended by someone just calling a group of people guys, I wouldn't ask the world to change itself just to spare my feelings on the matter, nor have that expectation that i'm owed this change.
 
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Brat-Sampson

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,464
I never even knew people used 'boys' as a catch-all. That's weird.

Guys I figured has by now morphed enough into gender neutral that I hear it everywhere, from wide ranges of people and use it myself if I don't wanna say 'folks' which is usually my go-to.
 

Spence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,119
Sweden
I'm a straight guy in the 40's and I also find the practice of calling everyone "boys" weird, most likely I feel this way because I never identified with all other men as some homogeneous group, I'm my own person not one of the "boys", so for me it's not about gender it's just weird to be placed into a group like that by someone else especially if they don't even know me.
 

FullWalter

Member
Mar 13, 2018
441
That is a quite good point about the fact that "guys" is now gender neutral is because male = default. The only time you hear men being called gals is either in the pejorative or ironically.

Or if you happen to be a male nurse, like myself. I'm a man and I respond to "girls" and "ladies" all day, five days a week.

I understand that I'm the exception to the rule, and I'm certainly not trying to wade into this nuanced, many sided argument. But I thought I would point out that there are entire professions where men are called by female pronouns on the regular.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
As someone whose first language isn't English and isn't a boy, this seems...a bit...much.

How I'd approach it:
-Is it a word which is gender specific? In this case, arguable.

-What's the intent and usage of the word? The more generalized "guys" has been brought up, but "guys" and "boys" do not share the same connotations. "Boys" can refer, and often does, to a closer knit group of friends - ie, "hanging out with the boys" or "you're my boy". While "guys" can be replaced in those examples, if someone was to tell me that they had the exact same connotation in every situation, I'd say that, well, no, they don't. "Y'all" isn't even close to the same thing. It is on a general level, but as an actual replacement for the word? Does every application of the word "boys" have the same as "y'all"? Very much no. There doesn't seem to be a good proxy in English for the colloquial application of "boys", and it genuinely odd for me to see people claim "guys" or "y'all" fit in the same. What's more, I've been referred to as one of the "boys", and if anything, as a female trying to be accepted in gaming, it helped eliminate the sense of othering, that I was just like everyone else. Not to a huge degree, like it wasn't something that I consciously picked up on, but it's a marginal thing.

-Who is being affected in the negative if things don't change, and how much are they being affected? As mentioned, I'm not, but I can't speak for all people who are. So for some, like OP, it clearly is very affecting, as they're totally right in feeling. That said, I would have to think that the amount of people who feel hugely impacted by it are...small. The genericizing of the term and the lack of an equal proxy makes it separate from misgendering, in my mind, and considering this thread is the only one I've ever seen of anyone being opposed to the term with respect to gender, makes me think that it is a very specific - valid, but specific - point of contention among the larger populace.

-Who is affected by it in the negative if things do change, and how much are they being affected? I'd argue many, many, many, many, many more people. I would, for instance. In a very small way, yes, but I would, just as a point of fact, and I don't even say it that often really at all. I am part of "everyone", after all. It's a widely used term, ironically or not, and one which is in the process of being genericized, as these 20 or so pages show. Where on that process is up for debate, but it is. No, it's probably not a huge deal for someone to switch things around, but it is - and forgive the terminology - a policing of language. It is, quite literally, telling everyone else out there not to say a word in situations they otherwise would, a word which is often used to no ill intent at all. It's a large group of people who are changing how they communicate, broadly, to people who might not even be in their group for the game or match or what have you.


To put it obnoxiously logically, I balance out:
([number of people who would take offense level X at the term]*[intensity of offense level X]+[number of people who would take offense level Y at the term]*[intensity of offense level Y] etc etc)*odds of running into such individuals) vs ([number of people who take offense level A at being asked to stop*[intensity of offense level A])
And then try to go with the smaller side (also yes I know the math is open for some tweaking)

So although I assume that the people who take offense at the term are far more impacted than any one individual changing their language choices, I would also think that a)people who change their languages choices is a group several orders of magnitude larger (being, as the OP says, "everyone") and b)the odds of running into a person who takes offense to the term in the first place is quite small.


So all that in mind, if someone were to ask me to not call refer to a group containing themselves as "boys" or they themselves "boy", sure; I'm not out to specifically harm someone. I know that some people are more affected by these things than I am, and I know that for some communities, this kind of acceptance is key - nor will I deny anyone their valid sense of offense. In that case, it would be one person (me) with one other person (them), so the size discrepancy balances out, and the odds of meeting them is 100%.

But for me to advocate everyone to change how they speak, even a little bit...to avoid hypothetical offensive of what I would imagine if a fairly narrow slice of all the gamers out there? People that they might not even be speaking to? For a word whose gender application isn't even clear in the first place? No.

To say that *everyone* needs to stop, well...

That's an effort I simply can't get behind.
 
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