Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

Oct 26, 2017
265
Are you arguing that "boy" should not be used in general because of distant and rarely contemporary racial connotations?

Clearly if you are speaking to a person of color and call them "boy" that has negative connotations.

If you are speaking to a group of people and address them as "boys" that does NOT have negative connotations.

If you are talking to a child and call them "boy" that does not have negative connotations.

So, for the sake of THIS argument in this context, "boys" does not have negative connotations.
My point was that words can and do change meaning over time and how they're used in regards to the context of the people they're used around. What may be offensive to one person may not be offensive to another. Just because that's the case we shouldn't just ignore the etiquette of civility and just say "it doesn't offend me".

No ones saying you can't use these words, ever, just that in certain situations you should be aware of how they could be interpreted. That is the whole point.
 
Nov 20, 2017
1,160
I keep having to point this out but nobody is "guilty" of saying "guys" to address a mixed group.

Guys is 100% a gender neutral term in casual conversation at this point. There is no need to feel guilty.
Nice. Cause the alternative was unnatural to say.

On topic: Boys? Never used that nor heard it and it just sounds odd as hell. Even addressing a group of males. I can see how you'd be put off by it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
My point was that words can and do change meaning over time and how they're used in regards to the context of the people they're used around. What may be offensive to one person may not be offensive to another. Just because that's the case we shouldn't just ignore the etiquette of civility and just say "it doesn't offend me".

So yes, it does. Because you're offending people, knowingly, just because "it doesn't offend me".

No ones saying you can't use these words, ever, just that in certain situations you should be aware of how they could be interpreted. That is the whole point.
At a certain point however common parlance is going to override any one person's emotional reaction. They can request language moderation but they cannot expect a random person to acquiesce if the word they're being asked to moderate is widely considered completely harmless.

If enough people say "it doesn't offend me" then statistically it doesn't offend anyone but extreme outliers. I'm sure that there were people who felt weird or were offended by "guys" and "dude" becoming gender-neutral. That did not stop the usage of these words from shifting.

"Boys" as used to address a group isn't at that point yet.
 
At a certain point however common parlance is going to override any one person's emotional reaction. They can request language moderation but they cannot expect a random person to acquiesce if the word they're being asked to moderate is widely considered completely harmless.

If enough people say "it doesn't offend me" then statistically it doesn't offend anyone but extreme outliers. I'm sure that there were people who felt weird or were offended by "guys" and "dude" becoming gender-neutral. That did not stop the usage of these words from shifting.

"Boys" as used to address a group isn't at that point yet.
Is it on the way there? The term boys, I mean. I definitely agree it's certainly not there from my experience, whereas I'd say "guys" definitely is. I'm just not really up to speed with how it's used by the youth of today, or if boys is more like "guys" to some people.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
Is it on the way there? The term boys, I mean. I definitely agree it's certainly not there from my experience, whereas I'd say "guys" definitely is. I'm just not really up to speed with how it's used by the youth of today, or if boys is more like "guys" to some people.
I'm sure there are field linguists studying it, I'm not a linguist, but I'd say given it's trajectory it will be gender-neutral by the time the next generation comes of age.

Slang is powerful as hell, and if a preponderance of 12 y/os are watching YouTubers exclaim "WHATS UP BOIS" or something similar they're going to adopt that word use pretty quickly.

Until then, since I'm 33 and not up on most slang, I'll continue to find the use of "boys" to describe a group as pretty weird.
 
Nov 1, 2017
294
What the fuck?

How is "y'all" racist?
This, basically is the flaw i see in this whole concept of common language and trying to get people to change the usage of it. The OP doesn't like the term boys and is less keen on guys and suggested "y'all" as one of many alternatives, none of which i found particularly appropriate for myself. Which someone else has obviously had a negative reaction to because of the way that particular phrase has been used in their past in a racist way.

There is no word out there that is going to be 100% neutral and free of potential baggage. Hell, what most people consider the most offensive word (cunt) is something i hear banded around in a joking friendly way by Australian people. What one person finds offensive another doesn't even register as something that could cause upset.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
There is no word out there that is going to be 100% neutral and free of potential baggage. Hell, what most people consider the most offensive word (cunt) is something i hear banded around in a joking friendly way by Australian people. What one person finds offensive another doesn't even register as something that could cause upset.
Tangentially, most people consider the most offensive word the n-word by a fair margin lol

It's telling how well moderated that word is compared to many others.
 
Oct 27, 2017
367
i'm amazed that people keep insisting guys is gender neutral by force of use.

even if you can make that argument, why did we settle on guys rather than gals?

from now on every time i drop in to a game i'll say "what's up gals" and see how that goes.
 
Oct 26, 2017
265
At a certain point however common parlance is going to override any one person's emotional reaction. They can request language moderation but they cannot expect a random person to acquiesce if the word they're being asked to moderate is widely considered completely harmless.

If enough people say "it doesn't offend me" then statistically it doesn't offend anyone but extreme outliers.

"Boys" as used to address a group isn't at that point yet.
This issue isn't that simple however and we're now socially at a point where it's very difficult to distinguish gender identity via voice coms alone. The OP is asking for people to play it "safe" and go for a gender neutral version, it doesn't offend anyone and it's not particularly difficult for anyone to do.

I completely I understand that it's not something that is going to magically change and happen overnight, but small nudges, like Astro's thread, will help towards that change. If even a few people do this it may help others have a better online experience, which is a good thing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
i'm amazed that people keep insisting guys is gender neutral by force of use.

even if you can make that argument, why did we settle on guys rather than gals?

from now on every time i drop in to a game i'll say "what's up gals" and see how that goes.
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cls/pcls/2004/00000040/00000001/art00016

It's been generally accepted that "guys" and "dude" have become gender neutral since the late nineties. There are numerous papers describing it's shift and hypothesizing as to why these specific words have been more accepted as neutral when compared to other words like "man" or "he".

If you're interested you'll likely have to pay to read more than just the abstracts however.

Word usage in American english is one of the most studied fields in linguistics. People aren't just declaring "guys" to be gender neutral because they feel like it.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
Are you arguing that "boy" should not be used in general because of distant and rarely contemporary racial connotations?

Clearly if you are speaking to a person of color and call them "boy" that has negative connotations.

If you are speaking to a group of people and address them as "boys" that does NOT have negative connotations.

If you are talking to a child and call them "boy" that does not have negative connotations.

So, for the sake of THIS argument in THIS context, "boys" does not have negative connotations.
Yes it does.

The negative connotation is the undercurrent of male dominance, as explained previously.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cls/pcls/2004/00000040/00000001/art00016

It's been generally accepted that "guys" and "dude" have become gender neutral since the late nineties. There are numerous papers describing it's shift and hypothesizing as to why these specific words have been more accepted as neutral when compared to other words like "man" or "he".

If you're interested you'll likely have to pay to read more than just the abstracts however.
How do words come to be accepted as words? They get used a lot.

That doesn't mean they're accepted by everyone, just the majority.

That doesn't mean they're set in stone.
 
Nov 1, 2017
294
Tangentially, most people consider the most offensive word the n-word by a fair margin lol

It's telling how well moderated that word is compared to many others.
Derogatory words like n-word can be reclaimed though and even used as a term of endearment, so i guess it does depend on who you ask. It's something you hear often used in a non derogatory way by the people who would normally be the main victim of said word. As a gay man i am quite comfortable using the word faggot because i am one and the word has long since stopped having any power to offend because i don't let it.

I still think language is far too flawed and limited to prescribe so many rules and stipulations for it. It's just a tool, somewhat clumsy in nature used to communicate. Intent and context are far more important.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
Of course not, at some point "guys" will shift out of popular usage, probably not because it is viewed as "offensive" however.
My point is your insistence throughout this thread that it is gender neutral... it's not. The majority think it is, but many still don't.

And while guys is far from the most offensive word there is, it's an example of male dominant words creeping in and dismissing the existence of others, intent or context doesn't change this effect.

Which is why we should talk about them, and why we should push back against really overt cases like "boys".
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
This issue isn't that simple however and we're now socially at a point where it's very difficult to distinguish gender identity via voice coms alone. The OP is asking for people to play it "safe" and go for a gender neutral version, it doesn't offend anyone and it's not particularly difficult for anyone to do.

I completely I understand that it's not something that is going to magically change and happen overnight, but small nudges, like Astro's thread, will help towards that change. If even a few people do this it may help others have a better online experience, which is a good thing.
I 100% appreciate astro's thread, discussion like this is great and I hope it helps people understand why they should think more about what they say.
 
Nov 1, 2017
294
My point is your insistence throughout this thread that it is gender neutral... it's not. The majority think it is, but many still don't.

And while guys is far from the most offensive word there is, it's an example of male dominant words creeping in and dismissing the existence of others, intent or context doesn't change this effect.

Which is why we should talk about them, and why we should push back against really overt cases like "boys".
I've looked at the definition of the word "guys" in the Collins, Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries and they all describe it as a word to refer to either sex. You can see how people would think it's a gender neutral term. Without wanting to sound like i'm being confrontational why do you think it's a male gendered word?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
My point is your insistence throughout this thread that it is gender neutral... it's not. The majority think it is, but many still don't.

And while guys is far from the most offensive word there is, it's an example of male dominant words creeping in and dismissing the existence of others, intent or context doesn't change this effect.

Which is why we should talk about them, and why we should push back against really overt cases like "boys".
You're wrong in here, "guys" is completely gender neutral when used to describe or address a group of people, BECAUSE the majority uses it in that way. That's how language works.

Of course, the word has other uses and a history of being gendered, but that is irrelevant to it's contemporary usage... and in fact, based on the papers I've read, is irrelevant to it's usage to describe a group. As far as I can tell, people didn't start using "guys" to describe groups as an invective, but simply for lack of a better alternative.

We can hold an understanding that "guy" and "guys", depending on usage, has completely different meanings.
 
A lot of very good and bad points have all been brought up in this thread. So I don't know whether I'll really add anything to this discussion but goddamnit, I have something to say:

- When I play online, I might say: "Let's go get em boys!"
- I call my GF "dude" sometimes.
- When I meet up with people, I usually say: "Hello girls". I even do that when it's just men.

Why? I don't give a fuck. Not one. I don't care about this shit and I don't think about this shit. I say words and sometimes they hurt because I say a lot of them. Chances are high one of them hurts. I live in a world in which various real struggles exist. For some, these struggles revolve around gender. Not for me. I'm a fucking rock against which the tides crash all day and all night. Yet I respect the struggles of others. Simply because I don't live through them doesn't mean they are not very real for others.

Now what this actually means is:

- I do not discriminate against women and men in the language I use. Except sometimes I do.
- I consider myself to not be an important person. Therefore: I do not see why I should care about the world and the use of language changing.
- I may change the use of my language because, fuck, does it really impact my life that much if I don't get to use a specific word when talking to someone? To use a different pronoun? It doesn't. I just do as asked and don't even stop to fucking thing about it or be an asshole about it.
- I may not change the use of my language because, fuck, I may not feel like it. But usually I will. Sometimes I WANT to offend. And there's some people I don't mind offending. But I wouldn't want to offend someone by accident and I wouldn't want to be an asshole by accident.

Now...

- I will NOT stop saying "come on BOIIIIIIIISSSS" on voice chat. Not today.
- If you are on voice chat with me, tell me to not address you as a boy.
- I will then cease using that word during this round.
- I will then start up the next round and go "COME OON BOIIIIISSSS"
- If there's another person telling me to not say that, then I will act accordingly. I might change my ways eventually.

The cool thing about language is that it allows us to talk to each other and discuss things. If we didn't all think ourselves to be oh so important. We wouldn't even have to discuss these things but they would all fall into place naturally. I don't want to stop and think about a list of words in my head I shouldn't use. I want society to teach me these things and ingrain them into my thinking. I want a world in which nobody has to feel anxious.

OP is right to bring it up. But let's all not get mad. Let's not expect people to change because you made a thread. Let's not get mad at OP because he feels strongly about something you might not think strongly about.

And don't get mad about the responses OP. It's just the internet... Nothing happened. Here's the box of things that happened: [ ] See, its empty. See how many pages there are here? You did something. But it's just on a message board. Don't be anxious. Be happy. Yes?

Sorry about the incoherent rambling, It's what I specialize in. If you want my card you may have it later.
 
Oct 28, 2017
430
USA
I'm with you, OP. It's so prevalent in gaming spaces, including this forum. I'm a cis woman, so I wouldn't say I have any particular pain associated with it but I still find it really frustrating and exclusionary.

There are so many posts in this thread claiming they'd never call a group of people "boys" unless they were talking to all men, but that's exactly the point. When you're online, you don't know who you're talking to. And many, many people assume they're only speaking to men, when they're not. And in a community that has a history of marginalizing many different people, you should do your best not to further reinforce the assumed majority.

Also, to the posters claiming they've never met anyone ~offended~ by this: you really don't know that. This is the type of smaller issue that most people won't push back on in person, because it's not worth it and it's exhausting. I'm not going to grind a (hopefully) friendly conversation to a halt for something like this. If I was close friends with someone who was constantly doing this, I'd be likely to bring it up at a different time with them.

From what I've noticed, the people that popularized saying 'boys' on Twitch were competitive esport gamers that had all-male teams and they all said boys when winning and so on. Seemed like a mostly harmless habit because that's just how people in competitive scenes sometimes speak, though personally I would never say it to an audience.
Competitive e-sports has a serious misogyny problem, so I don't think it's all that harmless. Especially since it's spread to the general community.

The bigger problem there is obviously the literal harassment of women, literally enforcing a boys club and leading to a lack of female competitors and female viewers. But when a whole group of people decide they're the destined majority and who cares about anyone else, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,708
A lot of very good and bad points have all been brought up in this thread. So I don't know whether I'll really add anything to this discussion but goddamnit, I have something to say:

- When I play online, I might say: "Let's go get em boys!"
- I call my GF "dude" sometimes.
- When I meet up with people, I usually say: "Hello girls". I even do that when it's just men.

Why? I don't give a fuck. Not one. I don't care about this shit and I don't think about this shit. I say words and sometimes they hurt because I say a lot of them. Chances are high one of them hurts. I live in a world in which various real struggles exist. For some, these struggles revolve around gender. Not for me. I'm a fucking rock against which the tides crash all day and all night. Yet I respect the struggles of others. Simply because I don't live through them doesn't mean they are not very real for others.

Now what this actually means is:

- I do not discriminate against women and men in the language I use. Except sometimes I do.
- I consider myself to not be an important person. Therefore: I do not see why I should care about the world and the use of language changing.
- I may change the use of my language because, fuck, does it really impact my life that much if I don't get to use a specific word when talking to someone? To use a different pronoun? It doesn't. I just do as asked and don't even stop to fucking thing about it or be an asshole about it.
- I may not change the use of my language because, fuck, I may not feel like it. But usually I will. Sometimes I WANT to offend. And there's some people I don't mind offending. But I wouldn't want to offend someone by accident and I wouldn't want to be an asshole by accident.

Now...

- I will NOT stop saying "come on BOIIIIIIIISSSS" on voice chat. Not today.
- If you are on voice chat with me, tell me to not address you as a boy.
- I will then cease using that word during this round.
- I will then start up the next round and go "COME OON BOIIIIISSSS"
- If there's another person telling me to not say that, then I will act accordingly. I might change my ways eventually.

The cool thing about language is that it allows us to talk to each other and discuss things. If we didn't all think ourselves to be oh so important. We wouldn't even have to discuss these things but they would all fall into place naturally. I don't want to stop and think about a list of words in my head I shouldn't use. I want society to teach me these things and ingrain them into my thinking. I want a world in which nobody has to feel anxious.

OP is right to bring it up. But let's all not get mad. Let's not expect people to change because you made a thread. Let's not get mad at OP because he feels strongly about something you might not think strongly about.

And don't get mad about the responses OP. It's just the internet... Nothing happened. Here's the box of things that happened: [ ] See, its empty. See how many pages there are here? You did something. But it's just on a message board. Don't be anxious. Be happy. Yes?

Sorry about the incoherent rambling, It's what I specialize in. If you want my card you may have it later.
You summed up my thoughts pretty well.
 
Oct 28, 2017
430
USA
I'm with you, OP. It's so prevalent in gaming spaces, including this forum. I'm a cis woman, so I wouldn't say I have any particular pain associated with it but I still find it really frustrating and exclusionary.

There are so many posts in this thread claiming they'd never call a group of people "boys" unless they were talking to all men, but that's exactly the point. When you're online, you don't know who you're talking to. And many, many people assume they're only speaking to men, when they're not. And in a community that has a history of marginalizing many different people, you should do your best not to further reinforce the assumed majority.

Also, to the posters claiming they've never met anyone ~offended~ by this: you really don't know that. This is the type of smaller issue that most people won't push back on in person, because it's not worth it and it's exhausting. I'm not going to grind a (hopefully) friendly conversation to a halt for something like this. If I was close friends with someone who was constantly doing this, I'd be likely to bring it up at a different time with them.



Competitive e-sports has a serious misogyny problem, so I don't think it's all that harmless. Especially since it's spread to the general community.

The bigger problem there is obviously the literal harassment of women, literally enforcing a boys club and leading to a lack of female competitors and female viewers. But when a whole group of people decide they're the destined majority and who cares about anyone else, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...
And astro I hope you don't get too discouraged by all the people in this thread shouting how loudly they don't care about your feelings. I know that hurts a lot. I hope you can also see the people who've posted that this made them think, and I thank you for posting this thread. It helped me feel less alone.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
I've looked at the definition of the word "guys" in the Collins, Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries and they all describe it as a word to refer to either sex. You can see how people would think it's a gender neutral term. Without wanting to sound like i'm being confrontational why do you think it's a male gendered word?
You're wrong in here, "guys" is completely gender neutral when used to describe or address a group of people, BECAUSE the majority uses it in that way. That's how language works.

Of course, the word has other uses and a history of being gendered, but that is irrelevant to it's contemporary usage... and in fact, based on the papers I've read, is irrelevant to it's usage to describe a group. As far as I can tell, people didn't start using "guys" to describe groups as an invective, but simply for lack of a better alternative.

We can hold an understanding that "guy" and "guys", depending on usage, has completely different meanings.

How are words accepted as words? Through use, by the majority.

That doesn't mean everyone agrees with the use, which is part of the reason why language is in constant flux.

So while the majority consider it gender neutral, many do not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
494
been reading slowly and I try to understand from where the op is coming from, that said never in my life have I used the term "boys/BOI".

one thing that the OP has to take in consideration is that this forum is international and English is not every posters first language, there are people here from many countries, languages, ethnicities, cultures, etc.

in many languages the male pronoun takes precedence, always. in very little occasions the female counterpart is used, in Spanish, Italian, Greek even in Japanese I have seen that the male pronoun takes precedence even to connote neutrality.

an example;

in Spanish if there is a group of people lets say 3 males and 3 females, and you use the term in question, " lets go everyone", you will use the term " vamos or vamos todos", "todos" is a male pronoun even if you are referring to the entirety of the group, it becomes neutral but is still male predominant.

now lets say you have another group of persons but this time the majority are female but there are two males, you will still use " vamos or vamos todos", even if in the group the majority is composed of the female counterpart. the same happens in Italian.

I understand your point op and the message that you are trying to carry, but language has not evolved yet to a definitive word that is totally neutral. and is like you said communication is more than a two way street , but don't be so hung up because "boys" is derogatory to you it does not mean that a lot of folk are using it maliciously. hopefully language soon will be even more varied and come in many flavors.
 
Oct 26, 2017
125
Be it Boys, peeps, gals, dudes, etc... words that have many different applying ways depending on where you live, this situation perpetrates much more than "just" being inclusive.

A small example; Being in Europe, having lived in different countries, visited many others and having all kinds of etcnicity work companions, to me it boils to the fundamentals of respect.

You might not care about the other person, what that person is, what that person identidies as or what that person wants but respect is the least anyone "owe" to the other if a polite and personal adressing request is made ( that is my point of view).
From the moment its made known right at the start of a situation where more than one party is involved it should not be a problem. Just dont go demanding like people should lick your boots as if you were the king. That will not work. That is called behing a dick.

I am fully aware of the aversities of those requests but unfortunately there is work to do.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
How are words accepted as words? Through use, by the majority.

That doesn't mean everyone agrees with the use, which is part of the reason why language is in constant flux.

So while the majority consider it gender neutral, many do not.
Agreed, however, at a certain point the "many" who do not want a certain word used in a certain way are simply wrong.

If you want to try and change the way people use a widely accepted word by all means give it a go, but you cannot assume a morally superior stance in that specific case because there is no moral argument to be made beyond "I feel emotionally negative about this word use". If I'm dropping in Apex with you astro, I will refrain from using "boys" and I will try to refrain from using "guys", but I'm a nice dude who takes peoples emotions into consideration. As soon as you leave my squad I'm going to be back to singing "Lets Get Down To Business" regardless of gender.

I applaud you bringing this issue to the attention of a wider audience, but if you want people to stop using "guys" as a gender neutral term you are shit out of luck unfortunately.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
Agreed, however, at a certain point the "many" who do not want a certain word used in a certain way are simply wrong.
Sorry, but no. They're not wrong. All we have is dictionary definitions which are literally measures of the most popular usage, that doesn't mean the least popular usage are wrong... just less popular.

So technically yes, wrong if you adhered to dictionary definitions, but ultimately no, because language is in flux and non-adherence to dictionary definitions is a part of this flux.

If you want to try and change the way people use a widely accepted word by all means give it a go, but you cannot assume a morally superior stance in that specific case because there is no moral argument to be made beyond "I feel emotionally negative about this word use". If I'm dropping in Apex with you astro, I will refrain from using "boys" and I will try to refrain from using "guys", but I'm a nice dude who takes peoples emotions into consideration. As soon as you leave my squad I'm going to be back to singing "Lets Get Down To Business" regardless of gender.
What morally superior stance?

I'm asking people to drop a word that literally means men, in a male dominant environment, where there's a trend of male dominant words being ubiquitous for "all", and every time this happens dismisses those it affects more and more.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
Sorry, but no. They;'re not wrong. All we have is dictionary definitions which are literally measures of the most popular usage, that doesn't mean the least popular usage are wrong... just less popular.
Again, that's how language works. Just because something has historical usage does not mean it's current usage (or definition) reflects that.

What morally superior stance?
In general, it's easier to accept a changing of the norm if that norm is morally wrong. Using "guys" to describe a group is not morally wrong.

I'm asking people to drop a word that literally means men, in a male dominant environment, where there's a trend of male dominant words being ubiquitous for "all", and every time this happens dismisses those it affects more and more.
Guys does not literally mean men when used to describe a group. That's where, again, you are wrong.

Boys is different currently, but I can see it become more like guys in a few decades.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
Again, that's how language works. Just because something has historical usage does not mean it's current usage reflects that.
Literally, how language works is words that don't adhere to dictionary definitions get pushed and BECOME dictionary definitions.

In general, it's easier to accept a changing of the norm if that norm is morally wrong. Using "guys" to describe a group is not morally wrong.
This has nothing to do with what I'm saying.


Guys does not literally mean men when used to describe a group. That's where, again, you are wrong.
No, I am not wrong. To me it means men because of the roots, and it means this to many other people too. And, if enough people agreed it would become the definition.
 
Nov 1, 2017
294
How are words accepted as words? Through use, by the majority.

That doesn't mean everyone agrees with the use, which is part of the reason why language is in constant flux.

So while the majority consider it gender neutral, many do not.
Right, but there is an officially recognised and accepted definition of that word, which is that it is a gender neutral term. As we've seen words can and do change all the time and once it becomes widespread enough the officially recognised definition of it changes too. But as it currently stands your assertion that guys is a male gendered term simply doesn't align with the officially recognised definition. It would be like taking an exam in English language and deciding to use words not officially recognised as such in the correct way and having a problem with it being marked down.
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
Right, but there is an officially recognised and accepted definition of that word, which is that it is a gender neutral term. As we've seen words can and do change all the time and once it becomes widespread enough the officially recognised definition of it changes too. But as it currently stands your assertion that guys is a male gendered term simply doesn't align with the officially recognised definition. It would be like taking an exam in English language and deciding to use words not officially recognised as such in the correct way and having a problem with it being marked down.
It's male gendered to me because of the roots and no amount of usage will change that. It doesn't matter if that's not aligning with popular opinion. Again, this is how language works. It's a popularity contest.
 
Oct 27, 2017
476
Agreed, however, at a certain point the "many" who do not want a certain word used in a certain way are simply wrong.

If you want to try and change the way people use a widely accepted word by all means give it a go, but you cannot assume a morally superior stance in that specific case because there is no moral argument to be made beyond "I feel emotionally negative about this word use". If I'm dropping in Apex with you astro, I will refrain from using "boys" and I will try to refrain from using "guys", but I'm a nice dude who takes peoples emotions into consideration. As soon as you leave my squad I'm going to be back to singing "Lets Get Down To Business" regardless of gender.

I applaud you bringing this issue to the attention of a wider audience, but if you want people to stop using "guys" as a gender neutral term you are shit out of luck unfortunately.
This is my general feeling on things like this. I'd adhere to your wishes simply because I respect you as a person. However dont tell me I HAVE to call you "blank" because it makes you feel some kinda way. Especially when no ill will is intended.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,516
It's male gendered to me because of the roots and no amount of usage will change that. It doesn't matter if that's not aligning with popular opinion. Again, this is how language works. It's a popularity contest.
In a way sure... but you cannot change the popularity of a word by force of will alone.

For YOU (just you, in a vacuum) the word means "men".

For ME (just me, in a vacuum) the word means "group of people".

What dictates how you or I should use it? Your feelings or mine?
 
OP
OP
astro
Oct 25, 2017
11,057
In a way sure... but you cannot change the popularity of a word by force of will alone.

For YOU (just you, in a vacuum) the word means "men".

For ME (just me, in a vacuum) the word means "group of people".

What dictates how you or I should use it? Your feelings or mine?
The way I see it:

Does it cause me minimum impact to try to make the change? (yes, it's hard to un-learn, but it's easy to TRY)

Will it help make some people feel more included?

If the answer is yes to both, it's a no-brainer to me.
 
I think this is a very overly generalized topic for a specific scenario. Personally if I know I am playing with female gamers I tend to be cognizant of that and will use terms appropriately. If I know I am gaming with only male gamers then I adjust accordingly. IF however I am gaming with a bunch of randoms and they refuse so use chat and thus I am uncertain of gender then I suppose I may let slip a "lets go gents" since 80% of the time I am gaming with other guys. There is nothing to apologize for that, and I don't do it to offend. If you are truly bothered by that as we game a simple identifying "hey not all boys here" etc. would do the trick. If you are going to stay silent and be bothered by that then I can't really help you there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,001
Canada
We really need another term under the "guys" and "y'all" idea. I say 'guys', cause 'y'all' just makes me feel like a southern goof.
I try to go for saying "everyone", but it ain't short and not really as easy to roll off the tongue.