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OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,865
I use 'boys' and 'guys' all the time when referring to a group of people. I have a trans friend that I call man (she identifies as a woman) and I feel bad when I do it but i've been calling everybody man for my entire life. Like if she hands me something I'll just say "thanks man", like i do with all of my male or female friends. Hopefully she doesn't get offended, because I mean no offense.

I assure you, it will hurt her. She will probably understand that it's ingrained and that it's not coming from a bad place as you're friends, but each time you mis-gender her will be a little cut. And there are thousands of those.

We're all learning. I STILL use "man" to refer to people sometimes as it's so deeply ingrained. I fight it like hell, but it slips out at times. A few months ago I said "hey man" to a trans woman and immediately saw them flinch.

So yeh, even those of us it hits can be part of the problem. No one is denying this is a difficult mind-set to shift, and I'm not saying everyone who uses these terms is a monster.
 

Gol

Member
Nov 4, 2017
774
UK perspective here.

I think 'guys' isn't used in the same context as it may have used to. In a group of males and females the all encompassing guys can be used and I've never come across someone having an issue. I know women who will use guys to refer to a group of just women, or a mixture of genders. I know where you're coming from with guys, but I don't see it changing and I know you see that.

Boys is not something you come across unless you're a male in your teens, and speaking only to males. Referring to women as boys would generally be looked on as abit weird; but ignored.

Is there a difference between guys and boys? , not much. But society has largely accepted guys as suitable for a collective of people.

Two words that basically mean the same thing can be treated differently. An extreme example being Twat and Cunt. They both mean vagina. Say twat at work; fine, say cunt? most people would take issue.
 

tmarg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
Kalamazoo
I use guys. I know there are some people who don't like it, but I generally don't like the alternatives. Folks, y'all have existing connotation, everyone sounds too formal. If I'm in a group where someone is bothered, I'll use whatever they want, though.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,689
The Great Dark Beyond
that's actually hilarious. because I'm a born-and-bred TEXAN so I always say "yall" in my personal life (in business/sales I say "you guys")

I would have laughed, told her she's stupid and to go pound sand

Well, as a southern boy, I said things like "Yes, ma'am" and was polite no matter what. I was raised to "kill them with kindness."

Now, adult me? That's a different animal.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I don't think anything is going to erase the history of "boy" being used to emasculate another man as a means of trying to wrangle the reins of a conflict in their direction. I've definitely heard people say it's condescending (and I very much agree, just think about the tone of voice someone in an argument would use it in) but I've not heard people complain about it outside of that, true.

That said, I think YEEEAH BOOOOI is hilarious and I do say it sometimes. I try to watch my language around people that won't like it though.

Yeah that's the thing, I don't think OP is complaining about that context of the word's use at all. More in a general manner. And while I agree there exist different connotations, "gg bois" doesn't really carry that baggage, imo.

I understand where you're coming from, but at the end of the day, you're asking people to conform to your single request instead of the other way around. Instead of not being offended by the innocuous term of "boy", you're asking everyone else to change. I understand being offended by something isn't necessarily a choice, but you do choose how to react to things. Nobody is trying to offend you with the term "boy". It's language. Not only that, it has long lost it's strict definition of "male", and can now also mean "this group of chums". And in this case, it's very clearly the latter.

On top of all this, it's only 1 word that you specifically are offended by. You aren't offended by "guy", despite it being nearly the exact same word in every way as "boy" aside from connotations with juveniles as opposed to adults when used to describe a specific person (which in this case is completely moot).

Compound that with the tens of thousands of other people that are offended by different, yet equally innocuous terms, and you can see how confusing that can become.

This sounds like your own personal request to everyone on planet earth to conform to language that doesn't slightly offend you. To me, that's ridiculous.

EDIT: Also, we've already had this thread.
Thanks for putting it into words way better than I ever could. Also I think astro has me on ignore for some reason so yeah...
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,595
I use it all the time with my male friends. Probably say "Where we landing, boys?" Literally every evening with blackout.

I use guys as a catchall. Seems as if most people in my area do as well.
 

the lizard

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,859
I think I've been guilty of this. Not often, but I've caught myself.

The problem is that sometimes I use that phrasing when I'm playing with a group of friends all of whom are, in fact, males and take no issue with it. So, occasionally I might let it slip when playing with randoms by accident. I try not to, though.
 

SoyPrincess

Banned
Jan 22, 2018
40
When I play Fortnite I say "Where we dropping folx". It's a bit of an adjustment to get used to saying it, but if it helps just one individual feel like they 'belong' on the Fortnite Party Bus then it was worth it to me.
 

AllMight1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,717
in spanish, we don't use words like "hey boys" "boys" .
We stick to "hey everyone" or "listen", we really don't get gender into the way we refer to everyone in the chat.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,660
The thing with "guys" is that it became not only a gender-neutral term, but also a superversatile word in general.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,086
In my gaming group, we frequently use "hey guys" when referring to the group. It's debatable whether or not "guys" is gendered at this point, but what helps is that at a certain point we had a discussion over whether or not the women in our group were cool with that. We were. It never hurts to check in with people to make sure they're comfortable. Assuming that people are okay with your language is a different story.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
I appreciate the effort you put into the OP, it's a good read.

We need to separate a few things here. Boys is used differently than guys or dudes. Guy and Dude are both very much gender neutral at this point. There is no going back with those words.

Boys is weird because it's more culturally insular I think, compared to Guy and Dude. It's use is influenced heavily by internet personalities and movies. The trajectory of its usage is similar, but it's influenced by people quoting actual phrases rather than a natural evolution of use. I.E. the ubiquitous "where we dropping boys".
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,146
NYC
When I play Fortnite I say "Where we dropping folx". It's a bit of an adjustment to get used to saying it, but if it helps just one individual feel like they 'belong' on the Fortnite Party Bus then it was worth it to me.
A fellow scholar, I see. Folx is the superior term when it comes to addressing a group of people.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Well, as a southern boy, I said things like "Yes, ma'am" and was polite no matter what. I was raised to "kill them with kindness."

Now, adult me? That's a different animal.
ohhhh you mean it was an adult woman??

I thought you meant a neighborhood girl around other kids ages, lol

If it was an adult woman, then of course I would not say the you're stupid or go pound sand parts. But I wouldn't have followed her instructions lol
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,885
Never seen folk uses boys as a term for all but I've definitely seen guys used
 

Kaban

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,497
I sometimes use 'guys' as a way addressing a group consisting of both genders - I don't think I've ever used the term 'boys', but if I did it would probably be for a group of men.

I do understand that not everyone is a fan of 'guys' so I'll normally just stick to 'everyone'
 

Angst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,419
I use "guys" in the gender neutral sense and I probably always will. But if a particular person told me that was hurtful I would be mindful to not do that in their presence
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Mmm, some real meta-discussion going on here, that's not a giant red flag.
The OP was asked why it bothered them. The OP explained it in great detail. There shouldn't be a reasonable expectation that they have to explain it further. Attempts to get them to do so come across more as negative pressure on the OP than any kind of "reasoned discussion".
Imagine this board where every discussion is just the OP telling everyone they disagree with to basically fuck off because they don't get it if they didn't get it while reading the OP. What a great place of discussion that would be.

Giant red flags indeed. Something tells me you wouldn't agree with that sort of discourse if you didn't agree with OPs sentiment.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,100
I think it's readily understood that there is no actual gender being suggested when used that way. Same thing when we say "mankind," "you guys," etc. These words have different meanings in different contexts.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I try to keep my language as inclusive as possible but I admit I still sometimes use stuff like "dude" as an intended neutral term.
 

Chris1215

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
440
Indianapolis
Mmm, some real meta-discussion going on here, that's not a giant red flag.

The OP was asked why it bothered them. The OP explained it in great detail. There shouldn't be a reasonable expectation that they have to explain it further. Attempts to get them to do so come across more as negative pressure on the OP than any kind of "reasoned discussion".
Why would OP make a thread on a forum then if they are not open to having a back and forth discussion and instead just pointing everyone back to their original post?
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
Imagine this board where every discussion is just the OP telling everyone they disagree with to basically fuck off because they don't get it if they didn't get it while reading the OP. What a great place of discussion that would be.

Giant red flags indeed. Something tells me you wouldn't agree with that sort of discourse if you didn't agree with OPs sentiment.

Wow, because that's definitely what's happening, and absolutely the subject of this thread.

Policing the discussion, check.
 
INTENT VS IMPACT

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
While I understand your point of view, why let something like this bother you so much? There are a lot of other things that could be addressed when it comes to toxicity in the gaming community. Also, even though you do feel that way, no one is trying to exclude you from gaming by slang words they may use when it comes to a group of people. It comes off like you think these people are attacking you by how they use words and that's simply not the case.

You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.

People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.

The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.

So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?


I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.

What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?
 

EmptyWarren

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,250
I just use folks and peeps. Covers everyone and it immediately sounds inviting and non-hostile.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I don't think it's part of my way of speaking, but I'll pay extra attention to make sure I don't use that expression.
 

datbapple

Banned
Nov 19, 2017
401
I think it's readily understood that there is no actual gender being suggested when used that way. Same thing when we say "mankind," "you guys," etc. These words have different meanings in different contexts.
yeap

generally it works as a catch all that most people do not get too hung up on.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,100
You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.

People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.

The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.

So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?


I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.

What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?
These are indeed excellent points, as always with you.

Side note, I miss you buddy. Been way too busy past year.
 

Chris1215

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
440
Indianapolis
You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.

People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.

The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.

So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?


I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.

What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?
This is an eye opening response and I appreciate you replying to my comment. You're right. It doesn't hurt to try and make the small change if that's something you do. I tend to say "guys" all the time when referring to a group of people
 
OP
OP
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,865
You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.

People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.

The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.

So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?


I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.

What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?
This is a very good post. I hope you don't mind, but I added it as a threadmark as INTENT VS IMPACT.

I would like to add it to the OP, also, if that's okay with you?
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,985
The thing with "guys" is that it became not only a gender-neutral term, but also a superversatile word in general.

But you understand that this is your opinion, right? And that while the word may make perfect sense to you, the point of the request is to think about what the other person might feel about it. And since you can't always know, the simplest and kindest thing you can do is just use another word.
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,907
Austin, TX
For what it's worth, I honestly don't see this done very often outside of scenarios where literally everyone is a male. "Guys" as a collective is definitely pervasive, but that is often used by groups of females to speak to one another as well -- it's entirely non-gender specific for a group in today's society.
 

DarkStream

Member
Oct 27, 2017
623
And why is this in the gaming section?
I also say "thank god" yet I don't believe in him. See what I'm saying? I use it as a saying yet I don't attach any meaning to the individual words.
Context is what matters. In this case, "boy" isn't used to define gender, it's more of a saying that evolved traditionally as a way to address a room. Language is fluid. I don't think using "boys" or "guys" in a phrase such as you stated in the OP have anything to do with gender today.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
''


I don't know about boys, but using 'guys' to address a group of mixed company is just common venacular, that's in no way specific to gaming.

Specifically about "boys"

Guys and dude as gender neutral has been common usage for decades now.

IE if I'm log into discord I'll say "whats up boys!" despite knowing it's a mixed gender channel, but if I walk into a room with I'll say "whats up guys!"
 

JaxiPup

Member
Dec 23, 2017
674
Massachusetts
Being trans , completely agree that 'boys, guys, dude, etc' need to end when interacting with people you're not familiar with. Hopping into something through lfg and getting misgendered for an hour isn't fun folks.

Been called a lotta slurs for asking to not be called dude, believe it or not. So a simple 'just say you don't like it' isn't the easiest path. That said, gendered language is a pervasive social issue that extends outside of gaming in ways most cis males wouldn't be aware of, so I doubt we're gonna see a shift towards neutrality anytime soon. Queer spaces have made rad strides, especially with the adoption of 'y'all', though.