OP
OP
Second paragraph in the OT.
Also discussed/explained if you read the thread.
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Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
Also discussed/explained if you read the thread.
That's exactly what's happening. Look at every post OP made in response to someone disagreeing with them in this thread and count how many times they just say: "I wrote the OP, if you didn't get the OP I can't help you, bye".
I never said it was the subject of this thread, I made one post regarding the matter before you replied to me, and like 6 posts regarding the actual topic. And I certainly won't continue this with you just so you can say I'm derailing shit. Have a nice day.
People saying "y'all" without a southern accent has always come off as odd to me, not unlike when Americans use the phrase "bloody hell" or something similar. There's nothing wrong with it, just sounds strange to my ear.
Yes, please, of course.
It's one of those things that might be hard to break at first. And, like, it's not the end of the world if you still say "guys" sometimes, you know? It's just about doing your best to be respectful and accommodate the people around you and let the people you're with know you see and recognize them as part of the experience. It's not super important to every single person but for the people it benefits it really means a lot. It's free good will.
OP
OP
And this is why I usually stay silent. I take the slight stab to the gut and move along with my day.
But these little gut punches add up.
Specifically with gendered words that have evolved into ungendered words, it's always going to be on the person that finds the word usage offensive to ask other to change their usage.
I'm with OP. It's annoying af when every other post in a Nintendo direct thread is "Well boys, all aboard the hype train."
If you are not willing to discuss, why start the thread?
I read the OP yet I stand by my opinion. Why not elaborate instead of just pointing to your OP?
When I hear "boys" used this way, I picture fast-talking, high-trousers-wearing gangsters from the 1920s with their bootleg alcohol and Tommy guns. "Hey there, boys," said in an East Coast accent. It's always struck me as silly and thus harmless, but admittedly I didn't consider how someone who identifies differently may perceive it, given the messaging they may perceive elsewhere in society.
Give me a sentence with "boys" or "guys" in it that is not supposed to be gender-specific. I'll come up with a non-gendered example. I don't think this has to be as hard as people are making it out to be.
It's made me very weary to participate in some social games I enjoy. I feel ya, it adds up, especially when it's both in and outside of games.
Thats why threads like these are helpful. They at least remind us to be aware of what we are saying and why saying certain things can be hurtful to others.
Y'all rolls off the tongue so well. A good "fuck all y'all" soothes the soul.
Personally, "guys" feels okay to me despite its roots because it feels like it's been "gender neutralized" over the years for the kinds of contexts being discussed here. I say it and I don't personally mind when other people say it. One can probably make the case that "boys" is in the process of undergoing this same transition, but I don't think it's there yet, and I think that's the problem. It still feels explicitly male to me (and to several others in this thread, clearly), and I definitely feel excluded when I'm in a group that's addressed this way.
Like, for example, I'm in a raid team in WoW, and when we narrowly succeed in getting a boss down, someone has started sometimes saying, "Nice job, boys!" and my immediate, instinctual, gut reaction is to feel like, "What, are you saying the girls didn't do a good job? :( " and then I have to stop and consciously tell myself that they probably didn't mean it that way. (Note that nearly 1/3 of the group is female.)
It doesn't bother me to the point that I feel like I need to interrupt the raid to call it out(too non-confrontational, don't want to get the reputation as That Guy), but I definitely notice it and as someone who's already got self-esteem issues I can see that tiny feeling of exclusion wearing me down over time if it continues. If they were to say "Nice job, guys!" instead, it wouldn't bother me a bit. It wouldn't register on my radar as out-of-place at all.
Like, for example, I'm in a raid team in WoW, and when we narrowly succeed in getting a boss down, someone has started sometimes saying, "Nice job, boys!" and my immediate, instinctual, gut reaction is to feel like, "What, are you saying the girls didn't do a good job? :( " and then I have to stop and consciously tell myself that they probably didn't mean it that way. (Note that nearly 1/3 of the group is female.)
It doesn't bother me to the point that I feel like I need to interrupt the raid to call it out(too non-confrontational, don't want to get the reputation as That Guy), but I definitely notice it and as someone who's already got self-esteem issues I can see that tiny feeling of exclusion wearing me down over time if it continues. If they were to say "Nice job, guys!" instead, it wouldn't bother me a bit. It wouldn't register on my radar as out-of-place at all.
What is you stance on calling a group of people (gender non-specific), guys or dudes?
I'm very good as using They and Them when addressing to a non-binary directly. But when I'm friendly to an entire group I say things like "What up dudes" or "How are you guys doing". Very rarely do I ever address a group of women as "Ladies" or "Girls". I always feel guy & dude are more gender non-specific when it speaks to a crowd. I could say "Hello everyone", but to me that doesn't seem friendly or personal.
I overthink these things, don't mind me.
I'm very good as using They and Them when addressing to a non-binary directly. But when I'm friendly to an entire group I say things like "What up dudes" or "How are you guys doing". Very rarely do I ever address a group of women as "Ladies" or "Girls". I always feel guy & dude are more gender non-specific when it speaks to a crowd. I could say "Hello everyone", but to me that doesn't seem friendly or personal.
I overthink these things, don't mind me.
Not being a native English speaker, to my mind "guys" seems like a common word that is used to refer to all kinds of groups. Don't seem to hear "boys" as much, and when I do it's usually smaller groups of close friends.
I can see how either can be interpreted as exclusionary to non-male people though.
I can see how either can be interpreted as exclusionary to non-male people though.
I don't know about you guys, but I've been seeing a lot more obviously feminine usernames on PSN/XBL than I did last console gen (not to mention the otherwise invisible enby folk.) If I gotta make some small changes to my vocabulary to make them feel welcome, I'm gonna do it. Cuz sure at shit there's plenty of people out there going out of their way to make them feel unwelcome.
I use y'all, dudes, and guys with just about anyone. Boys is reserved for, well, the boys. Close friends.
"Let's go, bitches!".
"Let's go, bitches!".
This is true, however I believe threads like these are fighting against an irrevocable tide of societal language shift.
Ive never seen such a dumb post from someone who at the same time thinks they are saying something profound or useful. Just dreadful honestly. Just admit you are too lazy to change basic, easy things to accommodate oppressed people without trying to make YOURSELF the victim, cause you're not.
That'd be a really weird phrase as it's not common, but I woundnt be offended.
I personally don't ever (or rarely) use that vernacular but it's always struck me as informal to the point of ridiculousness like "let's go, girls!" is a similarly cartoonish girl power slogan.
Intent has already been discussed, but I've seen/heard girls use the "boys" thing to be goofy (which is the assumed intent) and vice versa.
Intent has already been discussed, but I've seen/heard girls use the "boys" thing to be goofy (which is the assumed intent) and vice versa.
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OP
OP
You asked why this is in gaming, and the OP explains this and the question has been answered numerous times.
If you read the OP and the thread, you would know what my position is on this without asking me to repeat myself. I am willing to discuss, but for answers to simple questions that have been answered... read the thread.
If you wold like me to elaborate on any point I've made, please ask.
I refer to everything as boy. Everything. Mozzarella sticks are cheeseboys, if I need someone to pass me a fork I'll ask for prongboy, it's relentless.
I'm not sure if this has been asked of you yet OP but:
If at some point "boys" becomes widely accepted as gender neutral (as Dude and Guy have), would you still expect people to use more specific terms to refer to groups without knowing your individual preferences?
OP
OP
I knew if I brought it up in the discord today I would be met with either dismissive attitudes or hostility, and I got the former. I'm also knew it would colour people;s opinions of me going forward, maybe even put people off grouping up with me or joining the PC clan I run.
Do I ignore it and take the small punches?
Or do I speak up and take the unsaid and maybe even unconscious prejudices?
I hate that I have to choose this so often.
I use "guys" as a catch-all and I hate it! Everytime it escapes my lips I internally damn myself. I really want to break from it, it's so damn ingrained.
I think boys is a dumb general usage that should go
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
I can assure you a lot of people defending "boys" as a neutral word would get offended or claim it doesn't sound right.
I definitely don't like the idea of 'boys' becoming a more frequently used term to refer to a group of people, but I've never had an issue with 'guys', and prefer we continue using that instead.
A much bigger issue I have, honestly, is the over-prevalence of people using male pronouns to refer to non-gender defined people or animals. Like we really do have an issue with treating the male sex as default.
EDIT: I should clarify that I'm 100% aware of the fact that "guys" is a very gendered term, I just... don't see it that way, I guess. Ha...
A much bigger issue I have, honestly, is the over-prevalence of people using male pronouns to refer to non-gender defined people or animals. Like we really do have an issue with treating the male sex as default.
EDIT: I should clarify that I'm 100% aware of the fact that "guys" is a very gendered term, I just... don't see it that way, I guess. Ha...
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I very much actively avoid using boys or guys unless I know that it is indeed a group of only boys/guys.
Not trying to be PC or anything I just don't want to grammarically wrong.
Usually I use "people" instead.
Not trying to be PC or anything I just don't want to grammarically wrong.
Usually I use "people" instead.
OP
OP
I very much doubt the word for adolescent males will become ubiquitous to mean all. Like others have said, try using the word boys to refer to all in a diverse group in a professional or even IRL social setting and see what the responses are.
It's this way in gaming because gaming is a boys club still, and gender identity is denounced by so many.
So the fight is still on.
I don't know why anyone would choose any collective noun for a group of people that isn't "assbutts" frankly.
Let's go, assbutts!
Where we dropping you assbutts?
What's the fuck's up, you assbutts?
Where my assbutts at?
You assbutts ready?
Let's go, assbutts!
Where we dropping you assbutts?
What's the fuck's up, you assbutts?
Where my assbutts at?
You assbutts ready?
I prefer Bro at that point.
The only people I call "my boy" or "boi" are people I know who identify as male.
I think the only time I'd use Boy (or Boi) to address to any gender is when I reference God of War because someone made a mistake, needs guidance, or I'm trying to obnoxiously get their attention because their distracted.
I think "ladies" is the more common verbage rather than "girls" I hear people say all the time "alright let's do this ladies" and other variants of that.
I don't really have a ton of say on what people should or should not be bothered by since. I can only really provide what I think feels odd to me as an outside observer to this. Personally, when I say stuff like "where we droppin' boys" or things like that, it's usually coy quotes towards people I know that I'm trying to be funny with more than genuinely address the group. I actually can't think of any time that "boys" is used in a genuine manner for general group addressal like "guys" commonly is. And since the word "boys" isn't an inherently derogatory word that doesn't have any weight to it's existence, I feel the coy usage of it shouldn't really be taken beyond that. But if someone is purposefully misgendering people that's extremely fucked up and should not be tolerated.
Guys is informal and absolutely non-gendered.
A Fall Guy can be a male or female as can a Wise Guy.
This thread happened before and is once again trying to rewrite the English language.
OP
OP
Yeh, quick test:
How many of you defending the use of Boys would be happy if we replaced it with Girls? Be honest.
RESPONSE TO REPLIES
How many of you defending the use of Boys would be happy if we replaced it with Girls? Be honest.
RESPONSE TO REPLIES
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......what in the hell are you on about? When did I insinuate I was a victim? I think it's profound? You sure are assuming a whole hell of a lot.
I don't even say boys when talking to a group. I say guys. (Though regardless, if I did say boys, the issue still stands)
I've NEVER heard a single person say they were offended by "boys" in my life. Not until OP.
So if one person says you should do something, you should start doing it?
Do you realize how insane that sounds?
Professional word use is always going to differ from casual word use.
I'm not quite as sure as you that it's usage won't continue to bleed into common parlance. However I will continue to feel weird if anyone calls a group of mixed gender "boys" in real life.